Dairy Chitchat 4, an udder new thread.

kevthegaff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117905169#Comment_117905169

Not yet I'll probably put on another ring if it's good enough to. How much does it cost to roof them?

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117904785#Comment_117904785

This reads like an proper own-goal for IHFA. The current proposals allow for farmers to freely increase yield per cow from 6501 litres to 10,000 litres plus for no change in N banding.

All at a farm stocking rate of 2.35 which is still relatively high given that they don't really do grass as a group. It sounds like they are more worried about the reduction in N for lower yielding herds rather than seeing the opportunity for their own members. Poor.

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117906292#Comment_117906292

Steady up …..at least they and others are standing up for a fair chunk of farmers who have gone this route due to smaller land blocks ,heavy land fragmented land etc …Tegasc just don’t care about the negative affect it will have on is ,our farm or our income …you could say they were stubborn ,narrow minded amongst other things that they didn’t consult others when compiling the data ,only interested in one way of doing things …

saying they don’t do grass 😴😴😴😴 most I know do grass and do it v well …when it grows and when they can get out to graze it ….as for the opportunity ….you’ll have to explain that ….we’re effectively been forced to destock and cut our income because of it

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117906292#Comment_117906292

6301 actually. Their point about overall GHG emissions is well made and just common sense to me. Teagasc tell us we want to reduce sucklers and increase dairy to keep the national herd size stable. They are already changing their mind on that. Overall GHG emissions will obviously need to be reduced. I'll be doing the right thing for me anyway and teagasc can be catching up in their own time.

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117906896#Comment_117906896

They'll advise lads to plant the place rather then go to route of the high yielding holstein ladies

Lios67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117905811#Comment_117905811

Don’t know yet, or who does them

Mooooo

Have seen people get quotes of 15 to 20k dunno what sizes they are tho

Finty Lemon

Banding based on yield is well accepted across the EU. It is indisputable that higher yield is linked to increased N excretion.

The DAFM have been under pressure to fall into line with banding for a long time. Now its here. So it is not a Teagasc initiative, despite all the conjecture on here. Their role was to advise on the excretion rates.

The proposal of 3 bands is actually most lenient on the highest yielding herds. They essentially have no adjustment on organic N excretion after 6500kg and can push to 9000 litres plus if they so wish, for no change to nitrates situation. The farms most affected by this are actually the higher SR farms in the middle, once herd maturity kicks in they will be hardest hit. Painting this as a voluntary attack on high yielding herds is ridiculous. If ye continue to argue for adjustments to the e bands what will most likely happen is addtion of a 125kg per cow band at 7250kg milk and something like 140kg at 8000. Be careful what you wish for...

The Devenish submission is utterly irresponsible linking GHG and nitrates. How lads can take seriously the word of a company who profit from selling lads products based on the promise of more yield? Ever ask why Morgan penned this letter? For his benefit or yours?? Wake up ffs

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907456#Comment_117907456

My issue is that 6300 litres is too low and encourages those around that level to drive on yields. It actually discourages efficiency as far as I can see. They won't fix nitrates until they limit stocking rates on the milking platform and stop firing urea out in January.

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907456#Comment_117907456

😀😀😀😀😀😀😀a vested Tegasc interest I see

not arguing on bands just a fair way of compiling them which Tegasc obviously havnt done …..one trick ponies and cast differing opinions aside or worse don’t even bother consulting them ….they were hardly going to change tack from the constant promotion of smaller lower yielding cows for years and grass grass grass etc …that maby grand if your lucky enough to have the big land block and the scale ….there out of touch with what’s really happening on a lot of Irish family farms

the arguement u threw out is nothing less than I’d expect as a counter from Tegasc etc ….Morgan ,the ihfa ,roches feeds and others have put very good submissions together full of clear facts backed by science …..nothing short of disgraceful there views and opinions weren’t taken on board or looked for and if these bands come in as is huge sways of farmers will be forced into destocking and ultimately cutting income ….

at all the big webinars the band issue was just given lip service ….and shur a 4 year led in time will do 😴😴😴.amazing the last few days more and more farmers are starting to notice that these bands are a very real threat to there livelihoods

straight

Wait till the guys happy with more cows and less milk get told they have to cut numbers to lower GHG emissions. I see some other billionaire off to space the last few days, airlines getting back to normal, politicians swanning around with no change to their lifestyle. Agriculture is the soft touch again. At some stage they will come for the farmers help but there will be none left.

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907757#Comment_117907757

A big part of why all these cap proposals are there is not been addressed and farmers despite most genuinely going the extra mile to do there bit for environment and water quality are been hung out to dry …..there is towns ,cities and houses throughout the country with sub standard sewage treatment systems ….we know some are pumping straight to sea …..imagine if a farmer pumped silage effluent to a river ……farmers have and are doing there part but why aren’t all these sewage treatement systems been targeted …..I’ve seen no word or mention anywhere from Tegasc or lobby bodies asking that

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907719#Comment_117907719

No vested interest here, I will guarantee you that. Maybe you could address the points instead of personal attacks?

How would you suggest the bands show have been calculated? From what I can see, the Irish proposal is much more lenient on higher yielding cows than other EU countries.

That is my point. But you seem to have a particular axe to grind and seem willing to use it on yourself in this case. You have thrown heavy land, big land blocks, family farms into the equation. All emotive but not technically relevant here.

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907830#Comment_117907830

Righty so we’ll leave it there ….quite obviously looking at this in different ways ….my views are mine and very similar to other s simillar to me ….Tegasc have not taken a full set of data into account setting these bands ….u rubbish devinish and others detailed submissions countering some of the Tegasc stiff and supporting farmers that Tegasc don’t ….I’ll make no appologies for arguing this as if someone dosnt fight mine and others corner the viability of what we’re doing is in question …smaller fragmented family farms are a big reality in this country

blackdog1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907830#Comment_117907830

We have posted how other countries deal with nitrates and it was a learning experience for me but it makes sense. Nitrates emissions are based on protein content of diets therefore a low milking cow with a high protein diet can potentially excrete more nitrogen than a very high yielder on a lower protein diet. In my opinion everyone over 100 cows should cut their herd by 10% and invest in solar and sell the carbon credits back to companies in the short term . This would buy us time to figure out what to do to get more decreases in nitrogen and emissions.Teagasc are still holding NZ as the gold standard.....every day there is news in NZ of massive polluting by dairy farmers and huge animal welfare concerns and this is the road they are pushing...madness

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907919#Comment_117907919

I’ve read the devinish and roches feeds submissions a few times now …..bambozeled with them at first but going back and slowly going thru them again more and more setting in and making more sense ….when getting loads of nuts I listen to what the nutritionists are saying too ….lowering protein to 13/14% for practically all grazing season makes sense as those cutting back on chemical n ….cows are milking better every year …..growing more grass too ….without going back over above ….shamefull that guys like Morgan ,paddy Mc in roches etc weren’t asked and encouraged to give there input when compiling info for the bands ….these guys are there to help farmers first and foremost which they do

Good loser

As a non dairyman reading this thread, seems to me Finty Lemon has the best grasp of the details and essentials of the issues.

His analysis is balanced and credible.

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117909580#Comment_117909580

How so? We’ve spent the last 15 years breeding more effiecent cows that can produce more milk solids from the same amount of feed and now we’re told they’re not effiecent at all

being thrown under the bus and it’s going to drive the land market absolutely wild

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117909597#Comment_117909597

Your more diplomatic than me !!!!!!….just because some employ that were not efficient …or care about the environment ….or want to improve water quality dosnt mean it’s true ….for what it’s worth my submission has been lodged …in the last hour …I’ve taken from the submissions that care about the system of farming I’m trying to run on a fragmented ,family farm at not a massive scale …..whilst adhering to good farming and enviro practice ….I’ve no issue building the extra (small)storage I need nor having an extra months storage ….but I’ve a big issue been forced to destock a profitable efficient farm ,cutting my income when a one sided set of info was used without proper consultation with all parties …I’ve no issues with organic n bands but there’s solutions out there for fairer system and ways to lower the n excreted from higher yielding cows …..

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117909597#Comment_117909597

Forget about the farmers dole and just take your chances is the only credible solution going forward, top tip sell any entitlements you have now, and don't submit any bps details again about land area farmed unless legally complied to do so...

Look at Irish water they are almost breaking every rule and regulation enshrined in Eu law re discharging sewage to water way/into the sea and what's their excuse, they haven't the funds to upgrade the facilities, well I like about 99% of dairy farmers can't going forward economically afford to comply with whatever basterized nap comes to be, but like Jack Nolan alluded to I'm going to have too because the eu taxpayer is giving us a annual bps and in alot of cases tams grants, if you aren't receiving these kick-backs, how can you be expected to tow the party line if your simply just a farming business trying to survive unsubsidized and create a wage to support your family

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117909732#Comment_117909732

It’s part of one of the considerations here atm any way

weve 4 options i suppose

take on 50 ac land to keep same stock numbers

export 220k gallons and of slurry

destock by 25 cows

or drop Sfp

either way they’re all going to cost us a good amount of income, it’s just which one is going to cost us the least

we’re a family farm, not at too much of a big scale imo but it’s going to hurt a lot if all those proposals come in

Mooooo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117909775#Comment_117909775

Whats your whole farm sr?

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117909945#Comment_117909945

2.7

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117909732#Comment_117909732

At the end of the day if they shut you down, it would probably be a blessing in disguise. If you put the same time and investment into practically anything else you'd be better off. The mandarins know we will keep plugging on regardless and take on part time jobs, get the wives working, etc.

My parents are still working in their mid 70s and my whole family is farming and working hard. Well, **** is their thanks. There's plenty families around here lived their whole life on social welfare and there's more thought of them.

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910034#Comment_117910034

Was reading a new Zealand article about the environmental challenges and regulation been forced down on them, the standout point was from 2025 they are going to have to pay a carbon tax on any emissions produced on farm over what they are precieved to have sequestered, I still reckon the environmental bulls**t been peddled by 1st World woke goverments will disappear when the world economy does eventually implode, the evergrande property company going bankrupt in China might accelerate it alot quicker then what was thought, the deck of cards could come crashing down rather then the death by a thousand cuts that governments are trying to nurse along

3 the square

Any one know where I would get cubicle mats in the roll not more than 4.75 feet wide its for caves / small weanlings

Mooooo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910011#Comment_117910011

Good going, no silage bought in? 2.5 would be my max unless we bought in feed, but heavier nature of some land here would dictate it. Reason I would never go over 3/ ha on milk block really.

Have you weighed the cows? Would be interesting to see the output/ kg liveweight

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910457#Comment_117910457

Would have bought maize in 2017 /18/ and 19 to build up a reserve when we were up close to 2.9 but haven’t needed to in the last 2 years

not weighed them, something I want to do though

wouldn’t be big cows, we’re mostly jex not long ago and we’ve put high ebi friesans on them since and tried to maintain a high maintenance figure

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117909697#Comment_117909697

Look lads, I am certainly not looking for a row here. And don't want to get into repeating myself! But I do think we should look at whats proposed on the basis that banding is inevitable. That ship has sailed according to DAFM beacuse the system is standard practice in other countries and it makes rational scientific sense.

On that basis, I would ask if the deal is a reasonable one for dairy farms in general, and for higher input units in particular. Forget about the idea that there is some grand conspiracy by government against the Holstein cow- that is simply not credible.

I'm looking at other countries and their banding systems in comparison to whats being proposed here (as you have done before). For example, Netherlands would have at 107kg N at 6500kg but push up to around 120kg at 7500kg. That would hit the fragmented/winter milk/higher yielding farm much worse than the current offering. That is why I think the argument for additional bands is counterproductive. You have an open field to drive output per cow if its economic to do so but it seems some people want to restrict this to prove a point. I see why the introduction of banding is frustrating but I don't get the logic of arguing for making it worse!

For sure there are nutritional interventions to improve N use efficiency and therefore reduce excretion rates. Crude protein reduction in concentrate is already in derogation rules as an example. But going further with that idea would require verification steps and increased reporting to DAFM. The savings might be 5-10kg N per cow at the 6500-7500 range depending on the technology involved. Feed input companies will profit from these arrangements but it would becomes a cost-benefit question for the farmer- as usual he/she would be taking the risk. Overall, I think the interventions issue should be dealt with separate to banding and not be linked to yield.

I also think that some of the submissions posted here are inadvertently making the case for cutting cow numbers by linking nitrates banding and GHG. To me that is a case of winning the battle to lose the war.

My final point- speaking as a beef farmer with a big interest in dairy on all this (!) - is that we need to dial down the internal conflicts happening in our cattle industries to strengthen our positions for the coming debates on the position of the industry in the economy. Beef v dairy, Suckler v calf to beef, small v large dairy farms, high yield v low yield dairy farms- these rows are all a waste of effort and ingenuity in light of the greater challenges coming.

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910797#Comment_117910797

Your making some fair points …quite obviously well versed in it …but with respect as outlined thru a beef farmers eyes ….the bands are going to have biggest affects on dairy farmers and in particular those with herds supplying over 6500 kg with fragmented farms ,small land blocks etc .

the bands I’ll agree had to come in …no issue there ….Tegasc were asked to put a plan together and did but crucially it was from within there doors …they didn’t consult any outside Tegasc nutritionists etc ….why ????.the govt don’t have an agenda against the hol cow or higher yielding herds but u could make a fair arguement Tegasc and lads that fill pages in the journal do

they have consistently shoved us the so called low input route based on a New Zealand model ….this is fine if you e a big block of land and scale ….herds and farms here are getting bigger but there’s lots of farms on smaller acres farming a different system due to circumstances and they’ve been dealt …I’m not complaining about that but we’re constantly given lip service and told we’re not sustainable ,we’re feeding too much meal ,we’re breeding the wrong cow etc ….it gets nauseating after a while and sometimes I feel like we’re been cast aside and maby just in the way …..

i don’t buy the arguement you put against devenish,nutritionists ,feed mills that there only out to suck money from us for minimal return or to line there pockets ….I’ve worked closely with my feed mill last few years ,lowered protein in nuts ,get fresh grass tested weekly which has given me confidence to cut nitrogen ,added various things to feed to help butterfats and give better rumen function especially in the April June timeframe where grass is v lush ….gotten real results .outside of feed in parlour I’m grass based ,started growing maize last year on own land ,this has led to savings on feed additives thru spring and summer as it was buffer fed to supplement grass ,enabled me to feed bought in dairy nuts too

the bands if they come in will force me to destock and ultimately cut my income …I’ve tried to get extra land ….it’s not there to be got ….could drive output but that’s totally counterproductive to what the cap proposals are trying to do ….I’d have to buy in more feed ….maby send heifers to be contract reared and be tied to a z grazer for a lot of year ….not a route I want to go nor would it put money in my pocket