Dairy Chitchat 4, an udder new thread.

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506598#Comment_120506598

Its not a problem till it hits you in the face, alot of proven research into it of course not in Ireland that breeding for it is easily done

stanflt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506502#Comment_120506502

Would you not think the increase in output etc is down to your better management

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120505959#Comment_120505959

I personally wouldn't be milking cows if it wasn't for my interest in breeding good quality cows, 4 random heifers that came in here this morning their like peas in a pod

20230422_074241.jpg

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506607#Comment_120506607

Yeah for sure management has a big effect of cows realising there potential but if the bulls we’ve been using haven’t been good the herd performance would be standing still imo

GrasstoMilk

I don’t chase an ebi figure here

my first preference is fat and protein % and milk kgs

from that I pick out what ones I want. They can be genomic or proven I don’t mind but I do find the genomic bulls have that bit of an edge on the proven bulls

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506658#Comment_120506658

Solids % wise are ye up much then 10 years ago, when you first got home...

The 5 system model used in new zealand is something teagasc should be actually copying to really paint a accurate picture of on farm performance relative to feed going into cows

K.G.

If theres anything that proves that no one system suits everyone its this discussion on breeding

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120505959#Comment_120505959

Not really all that different grass is still king and system depends on doing that right for grazing and forage ……breeding wise I want consistent cows doing there body weight in ms producing a viable calf and cull cow …..ebi and genomics simply won’t do that …..I sucked size ,type milk and milk solids from my heifers by persisting with it …..this years heifers by yamasaka ,wikitionary Perseus are a massive step in every dept from the equuvelant Irish high ebi genomic bulls …..I’ve little to no faith in it now bar health score …..international bulls score far higher on this than the pot luck geno bulls from here

vested interests driving kiwi style dairying have made a balls of ebi ….advice before was a team of 6 bulls for 100 cows now it’s 10 and they re telling us reliability is improving

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506666#Comment_120506666

Can’t go back to 2013 on ICBF unfortunately

but in 2018 av fat was 4.6 and protein was 3.72

last year it was 4.61 and 3.78

490 kgs in 2018 vs 568 kgs in 2022

protein did av 3.86 for the 2019 year for some reason and don’t really know why

extra kgs milk solids from extra litres I suppose but the herd is considerably more black and white now than what it was even 5 years ago and %haven’t dropped

would be happy enough in that regard that the black and white cows are delivering

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506607#Comment_120506607

I think that’s bang on …..management on grass2milk farm quite obviously at very high standard …..ebi dosnt measure that ….nor on any other farm

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506776#Comment_120506776

Couldn't the extra kilos of milk solids be down to solely then to better management extra meal feeding better quality grass and better silage/maize going in, versus any genetic gain? Your % for f/p should be increasing if ebi was working but their stagnating/slightly increasing your litres per cow are up but theirs obviously more feed going in to achieve this....

The really high % wise herds nationally over 5% fat 4% pr are mainly still using kiwi genetics I reckon

jaymla627

Grassland rep put Aidan Breenan nicely in his place re cows on second round and issues with sara and body condition scores after a tough spring, on the journals latest podcast like everything Aidans solution was pull the meal and that solves the problem god love him

Downtown123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506770#Comment_120506770

Not to pick you out personally J but I reminder you using bulls like fr2351 and fr2056. They were ones that were some cold obvious on paper with inflated figures that didn’t suit your system. Fair enough 2351 came from a long lasting cow but there wasn’t a colour of the milk you were looking for there. Similarly fr2056 is from a low input large herd. It’s hard to criticise EBI when you don’t pick the right bulls for your herd.

EBI definitely isn’t a golden bullet but it helps take out the management effect that ye are on about.

There’s such subtle variations within the National herd management that make a big difference to animal performance. If we are really to identify suitable genetics we need to use EBI along with identifying the most consistent view families.

We have to remember where we’d be if we were still depending on fellas selling bulls to drive National breeding policy. There’s a high profile herd in the very south west of the country who sell a lot of “British Friesian” bulls. They do be in savage order for sale and look like lovely bulls. But the genetics are cat. Yields “up to 7000kg”, “protein to 4%”. When you look at the pedigree you’ll see the dams aren’t producing 500kgms. Even a high profile influencer bought a bull there last year.

But people still buy the source of their future genetics there cause the bulls look good and they think these things look good on paper. A lot of sub par genetics still being used in the country.

Goes back to my original point. As G2M said above milk sub index is the real strong point of the EBI. And we’ve got to the point that you’re almost guaranteed Irish genetics will have good fertility so it’s only milk sub index that separates the bulls. That imo is where farmers are falling down as well as health as I pointed out earlier. I could never understand why Munster don’t push bulls like fr7026 and fr4713 more.

The issue I see with EBI is of milk processors start incentivising using the highest bull on the day what will the less educated farmers start doing; picking the bull with the highest EBI which will inevitably be the highest fertility bulls.

Jay I agree 100%. Breeding good cows is what drives me big time. Nothing more satisfying than seeing nice correct cows coming at me in the parlour. But as someone with off farm interests in finance and data as well as a lot of relief milking experience, big milky cows lead to complications

awaywithyou

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506776#Comment_120506776

2018 was the yr of the drought.. im sure performance was affected that year.. have u 2017 figures... 2019 was a great grass growing year.. how muich meal did u feed last year and did u feed maize wholecrop etc as well or is that a new venture

awaywithyou

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506641#Comment_120506641

who are they sired by?? batch feeders.. would have thought youd be feed to yield

alps

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506598#Comment_120506598

I don't think you'll get TB obviously.

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506840#Comment_120506840

Breeding exclusively here to mitigate that, high dwp index from wws and immunity plus bulls from semex is all thats used here, its really noticeable now in the current generation of heifers they are bulletproof cows once fed correctly, even as calves sickness levels touchwood are non existent, in the holstein calves it's the beef comrades that usually give the trouble and their ran together

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506840#Comment_120506840

Used them back in the day when I was a believer …..tgem bulls were for certain cow groups based on genomics at the time …..both were duds and didn’t last ….iirc they fell away once stock hot the ground and reliable data came thru ……a very common thing with high ebi genomic bulls

agree to a point on Irish genetics …mostly will be fertile but very inconsistent small stock with v questionable functional traits line feet legs .udders and in my experience they will suck milk and milk solids (kg)from cows ….

in a herd like mine I don’t trust it and it isn’t throwing the stock I want …2 best genomic bulls I used are Albert and lwr……honestly couldn’t give one other bull I’ve used that I was happy with …..interestingly a leading dairy journo who milks a herd of x bred cows did everything he could to run both down because he felt they had too much milk and not they type of cow we should be producing

either way I’m quite happy I’m on a far better road breeding wise now …getting the stock I want that will produce the milk and solids I want and remain fertile

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506794#Comment_120506794

It’s a bit of both I think

yes management has a big effect but I do think the bulls were using are delivering

we’ve effectively gone from a crossbred herd to a black and white herd and kept the sane %

this year is the first year since I came home that the heifers coming in are ones of the better cows in the herd and I’m very happy with them, only one real dud in the bunch and she’s not being bred

next years heifers I’ve been even more picky on

that along with picking bulls that are predicted to do 4% p and 5% bf I think the herd will move on a nice bit in the next 5 years

bottom line is Im be happy with what stock is coming in using ebi and think it does suit the vast majority or Irish herds

others think differently but everyone has different preferences for how they want there herd or what there system of production is

GrasstoMilk

Was watching cork marts dairy sake yesterday

19 heifers av over 2k and they hadn’t milk or %

madness

heifers predicted to do 3.25% protein

Downtown123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120507010#Comment_120507010

Agree 100% re that author. His correct gripe is sexed semen. Seems to think it’s a bad job and warning farmers away from it every chance he gets. Maybe sour that there’s not outlet for his surplus stock seeing as the country is full of bulling heifers and heifer calves. Also seems to dislike beef AI.

TBF Albert and LWR have been the EBI success stories. Thought interestingly when LWR was brought out he was lauded and the next big protein bull. That couldn’t be further from the truth though he throws really nice milky cows.

The best thing about international bulls is consistency. They really stamp their offspring as correct cows. Now what I’m saying is that they’re bred for their system, rather than ours. The challenge is identifying those real consistent cow families in Ireland that do the same job here while fulfilling our criteria. Just because they’re great cows doesn’t necessarily mean they’re the right cows. Like saying the John Deere 7810 was one of the greatest tractors ever made. But I’d hate to be using one to put in bales of silage everyday iygwim.

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506917#Comment_120506917

Never said I would

Downtown123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120507045#Comment_120507045

The lads that breed them would be seen as good farmers is part of it too. Which they definitely are. They were all that was available there in the way of strong young stock in milk as well. Tbf id take no notice of the 3.25% protein. It’s been a hard spring down this part of the country and we always find the first recording underestimates thing big times. They could be estimated at 3.4% protein after next recording. Once they’re straight strong cows that’ll last, fair enough they won’t be breeding material but they’ll put milk in the tank for the next 6 years. Not justifying it at all when you consider what the CHFA sale heifers made a few weeks back similar money for generations of High Milk Solids cows. But if You saw what the cows that went before them have built you’d say there mustn’t be a lot wrong with them

stanflt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506658#Comment_120506658

How would it- if you were still using the same bulls and the management and feed got better like it has in your place production would be up- sure your now feed wholecrop and or maize

older by the day

Ah sher just breed a cow that suits you and suits the land

I'm on my own farming here and I want trouble free cows. The land is middling. Not a hope of growing maize and would not be reseeding too often, with drains and boggy patch's.

I would not take a 9000l cow if I got her for nothing. We had them before. You would need an army and a vet living with you, or else great feeding, beet , maize ect.

Health is wealth in my book. An average cow who calves feb-mar and give her two months off a year. Grass and 700kg of nuts. Around 450 to 500 kg of solids. Once they are waiting at the gate for milking is number one for me

K.G.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120507582#Comment_120507582

Ah next you ll be telling us you let the ai man pick the straws.used to be very into breeding my younger days until bse wiped everything.never regained the same interest after

Downtown123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120507582#Comment_120507582

Agree 100%. My point was don’t let the flaws in the Irish system make you breed a cow suitable to another country’s system

kevthegaff

Grass growth is slow atm, want to improve or I'll be grazing silage ground

Castlekeeper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506502#Comment_120506502

Fair play to your honesty but that infertility figure is challenging

It would want to be under 10% of all milking cows for me but then again maybe a higher output cow/ system has an effect.

older by the day

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120507841#Comment_120507841

Wtf ai man.

IMG_20230422_165919_751.jpg

IMG_20230422_165942_257.jpg