Dairy Chitchat 4, an udder new thread.

Birdnuts

K.G. wrote: »

A hundred years one neighbour said to the other "do you hear yer man up the road has 2 cows now, thats greed for ya".cant see how we in Ireland are going to buck the trend thats happening all over the world with the last 150 years

Maybe not - but would CAP money and state resources not be better employed supporting more sustainable farm or rural development that benefits the small guy too?? I would also add that further intensification is obviously reaching its own limits in terms of pollution load, water quality, soil deteriation, antibiotic resistance, animal welfare issues etc.

K.G.

Birdnuts wrote: »

Maybe not - but would CAP money and state resources not be better employed supporting more sustainable farm or rural development that benefits the small guy too??

Heres the key ,define a sustainable farm.

Birdnuts

K.G. wrote: »

Heres the key ,define a sustainable farm.

One thats getting a fair return for standards expected in terms of quality food and services to the wider society like high water quality, biodiversity, flood control etc. Which is why I mentioned the likes CAP money and other state resources currently being spent on farming being better deployed to support such aims and objectives. The current regime where 80% of CAP money going to the biggest industrial and corporate operations cannot be justified on any level IMO

mahoney_j

Birdnuts wrote: »

Not surprising really as the "expansion at any cost" model is glorified across the pages of the main farming press, state agencies etc. day in day out.

All the more reason to ignore the lot of them (well most)high time we started taking back control and decide our own destiny rather than trying to plough a furrow somebody else tells us we should be going

K.G.

There is no mechanism for calculating a fair return.in1989 i was doing the green cert and we had do the accounts for 88 and when i had them done we generated a return of 2500 pounds for 12months work from my mother and myself.the system at the time was 16 cows,keeping the calves to 18 months on 40 acres.the question is was that sustainable.we would have 10 times that number now and i have hopes that we may postioned the farm that next generation has a reasonable shot to continue but time will tell.the truth is no business can stand still and has to move but unfortunately cap and other farm schemes have facilitated a massive stagnation in the way farms are organized in ireland.this not only applies to agriculture, businesses probaly need to double turnover every 10 years to stay viable

Mf310

whelan2 wrote: »

Waiting on young lad to sort out green cert and a partnership before building our parlour. Pain in the hole when waiting on people to confirm things. Will probably go for 24 units

He is doing green cert at the moment is he? Ive heard of lads still eligible for the 60% grant and tams will just hold the money until the Young lad produces the cert? Could be wrong but definitely something to look into

alps

Birdnuts wrote: »

Maybe not - but would CAP money and state resources not be better employed supporting more sustainable farm or rural development that benefits the small guy too?? .

SFP or BP was set long before milk quotas were lifted and expansion happened.

Expanding dairy farms have not recieved a single red cent extra in this regard.

green daries

alps wrote: »

SFP or BP was set long before milk quotas were lifted and expansion happened.

Expanding dairy farms have not recieved a single red cent extra in this regard.

And most if not all expanding farmers have seen there payments reduced by payment leveling

green daries

Birdnuts wrote: »

Maybe not - but would CAP money and state resources not be better employed supporting more sustainable farm or rural development that benefits the small guy too?? I would also add that further intensification is obviously reaching its own limits in terms of pollution load, water quality, soil deteriation, antibiotic resistance, animal welfare issues etc.

Cap payments set as they are has done more for underutilisation of ground partial abandonment and the rewinding of a majority of non dairy holdings in the country particularly in the more disadvantaged areas
Edit to say if the state/ greens / city dewelers
Wish to have rapid land abandonment all they need to do is reduce the payments to the small holders who are just about having on as is

Birdnuts

alps wrote: »

SFP or BP was set long before milk quotas were lifted and expansion happened.

Expanding dairy farms have not recieved a single red cent extra in this regard.

Wouldn't be so sure about that - some folk maybe but it doesn't mask the unfairness and dysfunctionality of the current CAP

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/farm-property/big-farmers-competing-for-ownership-of-marginal-land-holdings-to-secure-access-to-lucrative-eu-subsidies-39209181.html

Birdnuts

K.G. wrote: »

There is no mechanism for calculating a fair return.in1989 i was doing the green cert and we had do the accounts for 88 and when i had them done we generated a return of 2500 pounds for 12months work from my mother and myself.the system at the time was 16 cows,keeping the calves to 18 months on 40 acres.the question is was that sustainable.we would have 10 times that number now and i have hopes that we may postioned the farm that next generation has a reasonable shot to continue but time will tell.the truth is no business can stand still and has to move but unfortunately cap and other farm schemes have facilitated a massive stagnation in the way farms are organized in ireland.this not only applies to agriculture, businesses probaly need to double turnover every 10 years to stay viable

At the end of the day I can't think of any other industry producing basic commodities that responds to price pressures by "expanding production at any cost" - I think some folk need to read up on how the likes of OPEC conduct their business;)

whelan2

Mf310 wrote: »

He is doing green cert at the moment is he? Ive heard of lads still eligible for the 60% grant and tams will just hold the money until the Young lad produces the cert? Could be wrong but definitely something to look into

No hes in 3rd year of an ag science degree. He just wants to get the green cert now and exit the course. He can't get an exit award until after Christmas, so has to continue the course until then. He has actually been to dkit once this year. Everything else is on line. Last time he was in Ballyhaise was February. Then we dont know how long tams will still be running for

alps

Birdnuts wrote: »

Wouldn't be so sure about that - some folk maybe but it doesn't mask the unfairness and dysfunctionality of the current CAP

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/farm-property/big-farmers-competing-for-ownership-of-marginal-land-holdings-to-secure-access-to-lucrative-eu-subsidies-39209181.html

That's looks to me that exactly what you are promoting is about to happen.....that the payments are being directed towards the more marginal land.

This looks like a play for future payments..

What are these future payment going to do but rise the value of land?

If there is something else in this, I'd be interested to know?

Wondering what this has to do with dairy expansion?

Gawddawggonnit

kevthegaff wrote: »

How much will it make

Around 6-8yrs of SFP.

Gawddawggonnit

alps wrote: »

That's looks to me that exactly what you are promoting is about to happen.....that the payments are being directed towards the more marginal land.

This looks like a play for future payments..

What are these future payment going to do but rise the value of land?

If there is something else in this, I'd be interested to know?

Wondering what this has to do with dairy expansion?

Acres.
Any dairy farmer, whether expanding or not, with any bit of savvy knows that current stocking rates and artificial N usage will not stay as they are. Less cows isn’t feasible but more land is...

alps

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Acres.
Any dairy farmer, whether expanding or not, with any bit of savvy knows that current stocking rates and artificial N usage will not stay as they are. Less cows isn’t feasible but more land is...

So will the law of unintended consequences kick in when BP is spread "more equitably"

tabby aspreme

Did anyone hear Eamonn Ryan, on yesterday's News at One, when asked about continued expansion of the national herd and emissions, his reply was that there may be a decrease in numbers, but the new CAP, and better prices would make farming sustainable into the future.

Mooooo

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Acres.
Any dairy farmer, whether expanding or not, with any bit of savvy knows that current stocking rates and artificial N usage will not stay as they are. Less cows isn’t feasible but more land is...

Depends on the price of the land.....

straight

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Acres.
Any dairy farmer, whether expanding or not, with any bit of savvy knows that current stocking rates and artificial N usage will not stay as they are. Less cows isn’t feasible but more land is...

Less cows - more milk. Marginal land can hardly take a cow to the acre as it us. Nearly bought extra land recently but I'm glad I left it after me. All I would have been doing is buying more work and for minimum tax relief vs renting. Putting any spare money into buy to let's for the time being.

jaymla627

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Acres.
Any dairy farmer, whether expanding or not, with any bit of savvy knows that current stocking rates and artificial N usage will not stay as they are. Less cows isn’t feasible but more land is...

What's going to screw lads is cow type, if you have to increase land area by say 35% into the future just to standstill at current stocking rates, but don't achieve the required extra milk production from your cows which is probably needs to be an extra 100kgs ms cow plus delivered just to pay rent and the cost of farming this extra ground your screwed, growing crops like maize beet etc and turning around and giving it to a cow that only has the genetic potential to do 500 odd kgs of ms isn't feasible

mahoney_j

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Acres.
Any dairy farmer, whether expanding or not, with any bit of savvy knows that current stocking rates and artificial N usage will not stay as they are. Less cows isn’t feasible but more land is...

Bank manager and accountant may disagree ....

Tonynewholland

straight wrote: »

Less cows - more milk. Marginal land can hardly take a cow to the acre as it us. Nearly bought extra land recently but I'm glad I left it after me. All I would have been doing is buying more work and for minimum tax relief vs renting. Putting any spare money into buy to let's for the time being.

At current house/apartment prices and if paying the higher income tax buy to let’s won’t make you rich either

Panch18

whelan2 wrote: »

No hes in 3rd year of an ag science degree. He just wants to get the green cert now and exit the course. He can't get an exit award until after Christmas, so has to continue the course until then. He has actually been to dkit once this year. Everything else is on line. Last time he was in Ballyhaise was February. Then we dont know how long tams will still be running for

Would you not make him finish the ag science course when he has so much of it done? Seems an awful waste of time and money to drop out of it at this stage

straight

Tonynewholland wrote: »

At current house/apartment prices and if paying the higher income tax buy to let’s won’t make you rich either

Passive income. About 1 hours labour per year. Diversification, pension, etc. The tax is a balls on the rental income alright but I don't overdo it on my tenants. I've an interest in property along with farming. Not that bothered about getting "rich".

Panch18

straight wrote: »

Passive income. About 1 hours labour per year. Diversification, pension, etc. The tax is a balls on the rental income alright but I don't overdo it on my tenants. I've an interest in property along with farming. Not that bothered about getting "rich".

Are you long at the rental game

Because at some point a tenancy will go against you and speaking from experience you’ll wish you had a thousand cows and no rental house!

whelan2

Panch18 wrote: »

Would you not make him finish the ag science course when he has so much of it done? Seems an awful waste of time and money to drop out of it at this stage

I want him to finish it , bu he just wants out now. I know everyone is in the same boat with covid etc. Dodgy internet doesn't help either

awaywithyou

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Acres.
Any dairy farmer, whether expanding or not, with any bit of savvy knows that current stocking rates and artificial N usage will not stay as they are. Less cows isn’t feasible but more land is...

we need to get away from talking about more cows to increase production to keep up with decreasing margins increased costs etc.... the focus should be on increasing litres and not cows.... you prob have a 9000litre cow and to increase litres u will need more cows... things are much different in this country... e.g. i know of a farmer that was doing 450kgms by switching to breeding high output cows he has gone upto 620kgms without adding one extra cow.. now i know he'll only go so far with the breeding and feeding before he will have to add on cows to increase..

there is huge scope to increase litres in this country without adding more cows...

Teagasc wont go on bout this tho as they along with many others (AI companies co-ops vets etc) are absolutely creaming it from the rubbish thats being spouted and the ****e thats being sold to those milking high EBI goats that will be minus in EBI in 2 years time...

straight

Panch18 wrote: »

Are you long at the rental game

Because at some point a tenancy will go against you and speaking from experience you’ll wish you had a thousand cows and no rental house!

About 6 or 7 years. Problems are a part of life lad. I like long term tenants and that cuts out alot of hassle. No thanks on the 1000 cows. I'd prefer to buy land but it's too expensive and too hard to get money out of it.

K.G.

alps wrote: »

So will the law of unintended consequences kick in when BP is spread "more equitably"

So true.alot of lads myself included are driving on now in case a quota due to nitrates or environmental concerns is on its way.

mahoney_j

awaywithyou wrote: »

we need to get away from talking about more cows to increase production to keep up with decreasing margins increased costs etc.... the focus should be on increasing litres and not cows.... you prob have a 9000litre cow and to increase litres u will need more cows... things are much different in this country... e.g. i know of a farmer that was doing 450kgms by switching to breeding high output cows he has gone upto 620kgms without adding one extra cow.. now i know he'll only go so far with the breeding and feeding before he will have to add on cows to increase..

there is huge scope to increase litres in this country without adding more cows...

Teagasc wont go on bout this tho as they along with many others (AI companies co-ops vets etc) are absolutely creaming it from the rubbish thats being spouted and the ****e thats being sold to those milking high EBI goats that will be minus in EBI in 2 years time...

Less cows more milk makes sense but tegasc won’t promote that as it’ll mean egg on there face and a lot of them will be out of the job because they won’t have the knowledge to promote an alternative I’ve less cows this year due to combination of factors but will sell more milk and solids thru better breeding feeding and grass management my next step is to ditch beef and give serious consideration to contract rearing heifers .I’ll go back up a few cows and try rope tillage guy in to grow maize and beet where my slurry and fym is part of deal