Dairy Chitchat 4, an udder new thread.

Panch18

alps wrote: »

You have a licence to milk cows....it may not feel like it, but its renewed every 18 months...

What goes on that licence is driven by official regulation and public perception, whatever way you want to turn it.

It's in our interests to control what limits us on that licence, rather than putting the 2 fingers up to it and complaining later.

do you honestly believe that a Bord Bia audit and having to get a licence from the EPA will be the same thing?

whelan2

Where are ye sourcing milking gloves at the moment. Agridirect cancelled my order today and they wont be back in stock until January

Gawddawggonnit

alps wrote: »

Social license is being allowed by government to continue farming practices that the public have an uneasiness about..

It would include you being allowed to send calves to Holland or slaughter animals in factories or house animals for 4 months of the year or remove calves from their moms just after birth and so on, as long as you adhere to animal welfare principles, environmental necessities etc..

Fall outside the boundaries of what the general public consider from these environmental and welfare principals and you will see government having to change their approach on what they allow us to do..

Derogation is such a social licence, but it is dependent on water quality.

Mccullogh has a point, maybe too harsh in its implementation, but it is true to say that every extra cow that's put on a platform and milked from here on puts pressure on every existing cow to stay in place...

Farms without proper facilities, housing, storage, calving are a real threat to the continuation of farming at current stock levels...there is at least an arguable reason that slurry storage capacity be at least certified by a competent person and declared by the farmer to be adequate.

It is not unusual in most European countries that if you want to expand production, you have to submit a plan to and get permission from a local authority...it wouldn't be a bad idea here

To confirm, I have a permit to milk x amount of cows in existing lands. If I want to expand I’ve to apply for a permit from the local Dept of Ag. After getting that permit I would then have to apply for local planning permission at a cost starting at €46k and it goes higher as the numbers go beyond 50 extra cows. As usual every Tom, Dick and Harry can lodge complaints for a cost to them of €25. You can imagine how difficult it is to expand...


In further news the market for calves has totally collapsed. Calf buyers notified us today that they won’t be buying any more calves this side of Xmas. Seems that the export market has collapsed also. The reasons being given is that with lockdowns the restaurant business isn’t buying Atm and there’s a lot of veal in stock.

I hope that things ease up for the spring or thousands of Irish calves will be killed...great ammo for the vegan bunch!

alps

Panch18 wrote: »

do you honestly believe that a Bord Bia audit and having to get a licence from the EPA will be the same thing?

Read what I have said carefully...the more proactive we are on this the better the chance we have of keeping it away from the EPA, but if farmers are going to take the high ground that you wont tell me what to do, that's where we'll end up.

kevthegaff

alps wrote: »

Social license is being allowed by government to continue farming practices that the public have an uneasiness about..

It would include you being allowed to send calves to Holland or slaughter animals in factories or house animals for 4 months of the year or remove calves from their moms just after birth and so on, as long as you adhere to animal welfare principles, environmental necessities etc..

Fall outside the boundaries of what the general public consider from these environmental and welfare principals and you will see government having to change their approach on what they allow us to do..

Derogation is such a social licence, but it is dependent on water quality.

Mccullogh has a point, maybe too harsh in its implementation, but it is true to say that every extra cow that's put on a platform and milked from here on puts pressure on every existing cow to stay in place...

Farms without proper facilities, housing, storage, calving are a real threat to the continuation of farming at current stock levels...there is at least an arguable reason that slurry storage capacity be at least certified by a competent person and declared by the farmer to be adequate.

It is not unusual in most European countries that if you want to expand production, you have to submit a plan to and get permission from a local authority...it wouldn't be a bad idea here

Great post Alps, would it not make more sense that council, department and bord bia audit were all just the one inspection, let's say every 5 years. Calf accommodation, slurry storage, run off etc. At the moment Grant's are available for all these facilities, and we may never have a better time to improve farming standards. We cant expect to mine the animals and the land, and then turn around and claim our bps etc.

Injuryprone

whelan2 wrote: »

Where are ye sourcing milking gloves at the moment. Agridirect cancelled my order today and they wont be back in stock until January

https://magentadirect.ie/product/premium-nitrile-gloves/

K.G.

whelan2 wrote: »

Where are ye sourcing milking gloves at the moment. Agridirect cancelled my order today and they wont be back in stock until January

I had to laugh the other day when i discovered that milking gloves are now behind the counter due to theft since covid started.got a box of albex gloves that look decent

Timmaay

Injuryprone wrote: »

https://magentadirect.ie/product/premium-nitrile-gloves/

I had 10boxes of them same gloves here that I got back in Feb, I'm sure they were only like 9e each then lol, bloody Corona ha.

GrasstoMilk

Timmaay wrote: »

I had 10boxes of them same gloves here that I got back in Feb, I'm sure they were only like 9e each then lol, bloody Corona ha.

And that particular brand are only dirt
Got a big box of them and brought them back the next morning

whelan2

They are 45 euro or something on glanbia connect

K.G.

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

To confirm, I have a permit to milk x amount of cows in existing lands. If I want to expand I’ve to apply for a permit from the local Dept of Ag. After getting that permit I would then have to apply for local planning permission at a cost starting at €46k and it goes higher as the numbers go beyond 50 extra cows. As usual every Tom, Dick and Harry can lodge complaints for a cost to them of €25. You can imagine how difficult it is to expand...


In further news the market for calves has totally collapsed. Calf buyers notified us today that they won’t be buying any more calves this side of Xmas. Seems that the export market has collapsed also. The reasons being given is that with lockdowns the restaurant business isn’t buying Atm and there’s a lot of veal in stock.

I hope that things ease up for the spring or thousands of Irish calves will be killed...great ammo for the vegan bunch!

That veal thing shouldn't surprise us when restaurants arent open.a fella rang the weekend booking all the hd bulls for next year so next i need to find customers for fr bulls and hd heifers. A friend that used to rear his own calves to beef is losing land and a house so decided to sell his weanlings recently.i think he said he had 80 cent a day after costs out the fr bulls.paid just aswell as the aa when you allow for difference in calf value.you stick alot of calves in an acre

RightTurnClyde

alps wrote: »

Social license is being allowed by government to continue farming practices that the public have an uneasiness about..

It would include you being allowed to send calves to Holland or slaughter animals in factories or house animals for 4 months of the year or remove calves from their moms just after birth and so on, as long as you adhere to animal welfare principles, environmental necessities etc..

Fall outside the boundaries of what the general public consider from these environmental and welfare principals and you will see government having to change their approach on what they allow us to do..

Derogation is such a social licence, but it is dependent on water quality.

Mccullogh has a point, maybe too harsh in its implementation, but it is true to say that every extra cow that's put on a platform and milked from here on puts pressure on every existing cow to stay in place...

Farms without proper facilities, housing, storage, calving are a real threat to the continuation of farming at current stock levels...there is at least an arguable reason that slurry storage capacity be at least certified by a competent person and declared by the farmer to be adequate.

It is not unusual in most European countries that if you want to expand production, you have to submit a plan to and get permission from a local authority...it wouldn't be a bad idea here

Wasnt pre 2015 simpler times.
- less bureaucracy
- no Bord Bia inspections
- (social) media didnt label dairy farming in Ireland was factory farming
- good calf prices
- good cull cow prices
- the beef guy was happy ( as happy as he is able to be) with the calves
- happy tillage guy who wasn't getting squeezed on conacre prices
- stable milk prices
- coops could process milk for 4-5c instead of 6-7c
- increasing numbers just involved leasing or buying some quota.
- the guy retiring had something to cash in.
- land lease price was 25-50% cheaper
- capital cost for dairy expansion 30% cheaper
- much cheaper vets/ai/fert/meal/etc
- less pressure on slurry facilities
- shed roofs
- less salesmen coming in the gate.
- more availability of labour.
- not half as busy to make the same income.
- my knees and hips didn't ache

Alot of change in 5 years, wonder where the next 5 years will take us.

whelan2

Was doing my payments at the end of the month last night. Noticed I was under charged by 60 euro a tonne off group price for 14 tonnes of dairy nuts. I rang them this morning.

tanko

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

Wasnt pre 2015 simpler times.
- less bureaucracy
- no Bord Bia inspections
- (social) media didnt label dairy farming in Ireland was factory farming
- good calf prices
- good cull cow prices
- the beef guy was happy ( as happy as he is able to be) with the calves
- happy tillage guy who wasn't getting squeezed on conacre prices
- stable milk prices
- coops could process milk for 4-5c instead of 6-7c
- increasing numbers just involved leasing or buying some quota.
- the guy retiring had something to cash in.
- land lease price was 25-50% cheaper
- capital cost for dairy expansion 30% cheaper
- much cheaper vets/ai/fert/meal/etc
- less pressure on slurry facilities
- shed roofs
- less salesmen coming in the gate.
- more availability of labour.
- not half as busy to make the same income.
- my knees and hips didn't ache

Alot of change in 5 years, wonder where the next 5 years will take us.

It's funny how the abolition of milk quotas never gets mentioned on here.
Getting rid of quotas and allowing a free for all was always going to turn out to be a dumb idea in the long term.
It's a race to the bottom for dairy farmers now just as it was for beef and tillage.

Siamsa Sessions

tanko wrote: »

It's funny how the abolition of milk quotas never gets mentioned on here.
Getting rid of quotas and allowing a free for all was always going to turn out to be a dumb idea in the long term.
It's a race to the bottom for dairy farmers now just as it was for beef and tillage.

The official narrative is that removing the quota "took the shackles off" dairy farmers who could now expand production, and everyone else was now free to become a new entrant.

All good stuff but no one seems to mention the downsides as you say.

Gary kk

Hey guys I have bag of g lime that got a bit wet I am not going to spread as its clumpy in parts. Would it be ok on cubicles?

Say my name

tanko wrote: »

It's funny how the abolition of milk quotas never gets mentioned on here.
Getting rid of quotas and allowing a free for all was always going to turn out to be a dumb idea in the long term.
It's a race to the bottom for dairy farmers now just as it was for beef and tillage.

It seems dumb to an outsider.
But from someone who was always supplying superlevy and wondering what the end of year held no it wasn't.

I'm way better than the quota years.
Milk price hasn't collapsed.
My ai and vet bills are down.
My land lease was high anyways so no change on that score.
Slurry storage was made bigger than the land would ever do. I just need to roof it.

If you box clever, it's still ok.

It's plain to see what's at play here. Derogation dairy farmers in areas where they are coming under pressure from all angles want to see a cap on any new developments into dairy farming in the hope that the derogation still stands in their areas.
To put it in context there's more dairy cows in Cork than the six counties in the North.

Gawddawggonnit

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

Wasnt pre 2015 simpler times.
- less bureaucracy
- no Bord Bia inspections
- (social) media didnt label dairy farming in Ireland was factory farming
- good calf prices
- good cull cow prices
- the beef guy was happy ( as happy as he is able to be) with the calves
- happy tillage guy who wasn't getting squeezed on conacre prices
- stable milk prices
- coops could process milk for 4-5c instead of 6-7c
- increasing numbers just involved leasing or buying some quota.
- the guy retiring had something to cash in.
- land lease price was 25-50% cheaper
- capital cost for dairy expansion 30% cheaper
- much cheaper vets/ai/fert/meal/etc
- less pressure on slurry facilities
- shed roofs
- less salesmen coming in the gate.
- more availability of labour.
- not half as busy to make the same income.
- my knees and hips didn't ache

Alot of change in 5 years, wonder where the next 5 years will take us.

Sugar beet quotas were abolished in October 2017. Existing growers weren’t too happy at the time and lots of first time growers flocked in...the following year prices fell by 30%. In 2019 they were offered €18.75/t...in 2016 beet made €41/t.
It didn’t help that neonics were withdrawn from the market either.
The result is that growers are stampeding away from beet.
There’s grave warnings that factories will have to close resulting in the Gov backtracking on neonics and allowing them to be used again but it’s too late now. The industry is in a mess. Neonics aren’t going to change anything because it’s the underlying price, and that’s the real issue.
Funny how the Gov didn’t give a flying feck about growers losing their shirt, but when *jobs* are at risk they would do anything to ‘save’ the industry.

On the plus side it’s not like growers had invested in new rotaries/robots/parlors and cubicle houses...any specialist beet kit can be sold.

alps

Say my name wrote: »

It seems dumb to an outsider.
But from someone who was always supplying superlevy and wondering what the end of year held no it wasn't.

I'm way better than the quota years.
Milk price hasn't collapsed.
My ai and vet bills are down.
My land lease was high anyways so no change on that score.
Slurry storage was made bigger than the land would ever do. I just need to roof it.

If you box clever, it's still ok.

It's plain to see what's at play here. Derogation dairy farmers in areas where they are coming under pressure from all angles want to see a cap on any new developments into dairy farming in the hope that the derogation still stands in their areas.
To put it in context there's more dairy cows in Cork than the six counties in the North.

No one mentioned a cap...

Derogation central circles just FYI...

Gawddawggonnit

K.G. wrote: »

That veal thing shouldn't surprise us when restaurants arent open.a fella rang the weekend booking all the hd bulls for next year so next i need to find customers for fr bulls and hd heifers. A friend that used to rear his own calves to beef is losing land and a house so decided to sell his weanlings recently.i think he said he had 80 cent a day after costs out the fr bulls.paid just aswell as the aa when you allow for difference in calf value.you stick alot of calves in an acre

Sure it’s grand so.
(FYI, News here is that restaurants won’t be allowed open until January, at the earliest)


If there’s no market for calves in continental Europe it’ll be interesting what happens to all those newborn male calves...

Short story. Back in the day I’d an outside farm taken from a widow and she has the home farm let to a young progressive dairy farmer. I’d talk to her every couple of months. Last spring she was terribly disappointed that the government had passed a regulation that all males had to be killed at birth...thankfully not everyone is as gullible as her.

I hope I’m wrong.

RightTurnClyde

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Sugar beet quotas were abolished in October 2017. Existing growers weren’t too happy at the time and lots of first time growers flocked in...the following year prices fell by 30%. In 2019 they were offered €18.75/t...in 2016 beet made €41/t.
It didn’t help that neonics were withdrawn from the market either.
The result is that growers are stampeding away from beet.
There’s grave warnings that factories will have to close resulting in the Gov backtracking on neonics and allowing them to be used again but it’s too late now. The industry is in a mess. Neonics aren’t going to change anything because it’s the underlying price, and that’s the real issue.
Funny how the Gov didn’t give a flying feck about growers losing their shirt, but when *jobs* are at risk they would do anything to ‘save’ the industry.

On the plus side it’s not like growers had invested in new rotaries/robots/parlors and cubicle houses...any specialist beet kit can be sold.

As I started reading your post thats what was running through my mind, big difference between buying and selling a beet harvester and the scale and non-saleability of dairy capital. Glad you pointed that out in the end.
Had a guy in here a few weeks ago buying empty cows to milk through. Mature new entrant, 40 acres around parlour, few outside blocks. New amd converted buildings for cow housing, parlour, herd, roadways, etc for 100 cows. Very nice fellow, Hes 48 with a young family, wife with part time job, he has €280k borrowed for this. I asked him how were the figures looking. He said teagasc did up the figures for him and did the business plan for the bank, so all was good.
I think he has a tough road in front of him.

Panch18

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

Wasnt pre 2015 simpler times.
- less bureaucracy
- no Bord Bia inspections
- (social) media didnt label dairy farming in Ireland was factory farming
- good calf prices
- good cull cow prices
- the beef guy was happy ( as happy as he is able to be) with the calves
- happy tillage guy who wasn't getting squeezed on conacre prices
- stable milk prices
- coops could process milk for 4-5c instead of 6-7c
- increasing numbers just involved leasing or buying some quota.
- the guy retiring had something to cash in.
- land lease price was 25-50% cheaper
- capital cost for dairy expansion 30% cheaper
- much cheaper vets/ai/fert/meal/etc
- less pressure on slurry facilities
- shed roofs
- less salesmen coming in the gate.
- more availability of labour.
- not half as busy to make the same income.
- my knees and hips didn't ache

Alot of change in 5 years, wonder where the next 5 years will take us.

I have to say this is a top post

a better quota trading system was what was needed not an abolition

Timmaay

Say my name wrote: »

It seems dumb to an outsider.
But from someone who was always supplying superlevy and wondering what the end of year held no it wasn't.

I'm way better than the quota years.
Milk price hasn't collapsed.
My ai and vet bills are down.
My land lease was high anyways so no change on that score.
Slurry storage was made bigger than the land would ever do. I just need to roof it.

If you box clever, it's still ok.

It's plain to see what's at play here. Derogation dairy farmers in areas where they are coming under pressure from all angles want to see a cap on any new developments into dairy farming in the hope that the derogation still stands in their areas.
To put it in context there's more dairy cows in Cork than the six counties in the North.

+100%, loosing the full June milk cheque to the superlevy was no joke.

straight

Panch18 wrote: »

I have to say this is a top post

a better quota trading system was what was needed not an abolition

There's an awful lot of people making money out of the expansion. Just not farmers.

Siamsa Sessions

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

As I started reading your post thats what was running through my mind, big difference between buying and selling a beet harvester and the scale and non-saleability of dairy capital. Glad you pointed that out in the end.
Had a guy in here a few weeks ago buying empty cows to milk through. Mature new entrant, 40 acres around parlour, few outside blocks. New amd converted buildings for cow housing, parlour, herd, roadways, etc for 100 cows. Very nice fellow, Hes 48 with a young family, wife with part time job, he has €280k borrowed for this. I asked him how were the figures looking. He said teagasc did up the figures for him and did the business plan for the bank, so all was good.
I think he has a tough road in front of him.

I'm in a somewhat similar position but earlier in the process, and just pricing up various parts of converting at the moment. At first glance, I would say those figures make it a very tough road indeed to be facing. €280k is a huge amount (to me anyway) and 40 acres around the parlour for 100 cows makes things more complicated.

If it helps, I'd be starting with 35-40 cows on 35 acres beside the parlour. I'll stay part-time in the current job (5 x 1/2 days with some flexibility) for 12 months to see how income tax and cash flow is working out. Parlour and stock is currently looking like a €30-35k loan but I'm assuming 20% higher just to be sure.

If it all goes OK, I'll go up to 75 cows in 2024 when 40 acres we currently have leased out comes back to us. I'll never set the world on fire with these figures but it'll do me just fine.

Siamsa Sessions

straight wrote: »

There's an awful lot of people making money out of the expansion. Just not farmers.

Reminds me of the line about the gold rush in America: "The only people who made money from the gold rush were those selling shovels and maps."

yosemitesam1

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Sugar beet quotas were abolished in October 2017. Existing growers weren’t too happy at the time and lots of first time growers flocked in...the following year prices fell by 30%. In 2019 they were offered €18.75/t...in 2016 beet made €41/t.
It didn’t help that neonics were withdrawn from the market either.
The result is that growers are stampeding away from beet.
There’s grave warnings that factories will have to close resulting in the Gov backtracking on neonics and allowing them to be used again but it’s too late now. The industry is in a mess. Neonics aren’t going to change anything because it’s the underlying price, and that’s the real issue.
Funny how the Gov didn’t give a flying feck about growers losing their shirt, but when *jobs* are at risk they would do anything to ‘save’ the industry.

On the plus side it’s not like growers had invested in new rotaries/robots/parlors and cubicle houses...any specialist beet kit can be sold.

Is much beet being diverted to animal feed at that price?

K.G.

Quotas and subsidies. Ok if you born with the silver spoon.
Quotas and fluctuating prices,a crock òf s##t.
Quotas for 3years may be ok but any longer and you start messing with natural farm reorganisation.
Any how the margin in milk is continuing to fall so i wouldn't panic.whats going on at the minute is just 30 years of stagnation being actuated.

K.G.

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

I'm in a somewhat similar position but earlier in the process, and just pricing up various parts of converting at the moment. At first glance, I would say those figures make it a very tough road indeed to be facing. €280k is a huge amount (to me anyway) and 40 acres around the parlour for 100 cows makes things more complicated.

If it helps, I'd be starting with 35-40 cows on 35 acres beside the parlour. I'll stay part-time in the current job (5 x 1/2 days with some flexibility) for 12 months to see how income tax and cash flow is working out. Parlour and stock is currently looking like a €30-35k loan but I'm assuming 20% higher just to be sure.

If it all goes OK, I'll go up to 75 cows in 2024 when 40 acres we currently have leased out comes back to us. I'll never set the world on fire with these figures but it'll do me just fine.

Sounds reasonable.i always thought if you havent the price of the stock in your hand ,forget about going milking

Gawddawggonnit

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

As I started reading your post thats what was running through my mind, big difference between buying and selling a beet harvester and the scale and non-saleability of dairy capital. Glad you pointed that out in the end.
Had a guy in here a few weeks ago buying empty cows to milk through. Mature new entrant, 40 acres around parlour, few outside blocks. New amd converted buildings for cow housing, parlour, herd, roadways, etc for 100 cows. Very nice fellow, Hes 48 with a young family, wife with part time job, he has €280k borrowed for this. I asked him how were the figures looking. He said teagasc did up the figures for him and did the business plan for the bank, so all was good.
I think he has a tough road in front of him.

See, I just can’t get my head around that. That guy will have that debt cleared when he reaches retirement all going well, but then what? The hundred cows, assuming that derogation and artificial N usage stay the same, is hardly going to be a golden goose in 20yrs time? Does he expect a son or daughter to stay on farm and commit themselves to a life of drudgery? If not, he’s just buying work for himself. Thus one could conclude, as another poster said, Teagasc, Banks, Merchants, Coops etc have made money off his back and he just bought work for himself...secondhand parlors/cubicle houses/etc aren’t exactly very sought after kit.

You just got to love the Twitter accounts...father/mother to 2/3/4/5 ‘little farmers’!
Ffs I wouldn’t condemn my daughter to a life of hardship, that’s for sure.