Green List (Who will be on it?)

Donald Trump

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

So it's a bit clearer now.

Appears list is for countries with 5 per 100k 14 day average infection rate.

I guess this might be eased later in year to allow 10 per 100k once or if schools go back successfully.

If all EU nations can get there 14 day average to 10 per 100k, we will all be doing very well at managing this virus.

14 day cumulative new case rate per 100k.

polesheep

yoshimitsu wrote: »

You're only looking at one side of the story Don. Tourists from Italy, Greece, UK (through N. Ireland) will be able to come visit Ireland with no need to restrict their movement (lets start using the proper terminology, it's not quarantine or self isolation https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/travel.html). Those tourists will have had contact with a host of other individuals from all over Europe in their countries of origin and through their airports which are not allowed to come here unless they restrict their movement for 14 days. So the policy, as it stands today, does not us "protect us" from the scenario above. These tourists, differently from Irish residents, wont have the COVID tracking app so it makes them even harder to track down. There is no message to Italians today saying "you can come over without restricting movement as of today, but we recommend you dont do it unless it's essential". Ireland is open for business....



Furthermore, do you think the governments of Germany, France, NL, etc are complete cowboys or so incompetent that they do not care about the hypothetical risk you highlight above? Angela Merkel is perfectly fine with Spanish, Portuguese and French tourists coming into Germany and "losing track" of their infectious potential as they wander through the country and plague the 88m Teutonic citizens left, right and center?

Or maybe, just maybe, the healthcare experts in those countries, in the broader EU, in the WHO and ECDC have analyzed, studied, charted, modeled the risk from opening up one's economy to tourism from within the EC and have deemed it a low enough risk that they have allowed it. And, factually speaking, since things have opened up in mid-June, we have has a few dozen infections at most from tourism-related cases across Europe. Cases have been community related: slaughterhouse in Germany, fruit pickers in Spain, construction workers in Dublin.



Those above were facts, what follows is my personal opinion: I trust the judgement of those people and institutions 1000x more than I do that of the "experts" that oversee one of the most backwards healthcare system in Europe: underfunded, badly run, lacking some of the standard procedures that have been available for decades elsewhere in Europe (green or red list countries). I think the advisory panel of the ECDC comprised of 2 leading experts from each of the 27 countries in the EU is more qualified than the HSE, Chief Medical examiner and ruling politicians of this country

Hear, hear.

Donald Trump

polesheep wrote: »

Hear, hear.

A lot of countries were able to manage their outbreaks a lot better than Ireland was.



Ireland has had 355 deaths per million of population. Germany has had 110. The Czech Republic has only had 34. But if you look at their graph, their rate of new cases has started to go back up to almost where it was at the peak (You can argue points about testing etc.).



That would lend evidence to suggest that they might have better systems in place to cope, which would allow them to feel comfortable opening up earlier. What works for Berlin might not work for Dublin.



The average German that I've met gives the impression that they tend to respect and follow the little rules.....whereas the average Irish person.......

yoshimitsu

Donald Trump wrote: »

What is your point?
Is it only a "yeah but look over there. Those fellas can potentially do something bad so I should be able to do it as well"

My point is exactly that Donald Trump, I dont think the rest of Europe is doing something bad. The data, so far, doesnt point to the rest of Europe doing something bad.


So you think the recommendations of the Irish government must be superior right?
Masks becoming mandatory now when they've been so in many other countries since the beginning. Still allowing US tourists in (with proof that many are violating the restricted movement guidelines) when the rest of Europe have banned them for ages.


I'm not making up the rules I'm just listening to people that have shown much greater foresight and preparedness compared to the incompetent leaders in this country.



You forgot to address my main point to your previous post: if you are afraid that travel may bring in the virus and make it harder to track, why let in visitor from green list countries which would've mingled with everybody else in europe and that are even harder to track than a Irish resident?


The policies are illogical and incoherent... I prefer to get advise from competent, coherent leaders

Hooked

Can I ask...

Regarding this Green List... Is this all just "advisory"? And for the sake of not having to quarantine on return?

My boss has decided that ANYONE travelling outside of Ireland will be working from home for 14 days when back...
So it's irrelevant whether the country is Green-lit or not!

What if I want to, for talk's sake... go to Lanzarote for a week in late Sept?
I mean... me, my wife (we've no kids). Proper precautions taken en route.
Keep to ourselves. Practice social distancing, good hand-hygiene etc...

Am I LEGALLY allowed to?

Donald Trump

yoshimitsu wrote: »

My point is exactly that Donald Trump, I dont think the rest of Europe is doing something bad. The data, so far, doesnt point to the rest of Europe doing something bad.


So you think the recommendations of the Irish government must be superior right?
Masks becoming mandatory now when they've been so in many other countries since the beginning. Still allowing US tourists in (with proof that many are violating the restricted movement guidelines) when the rest of Europe have banned them for ages.


I'm not making up the rules I'm just listening to people that have shown much greater foresight and preparedness compared to the incompetent leaders in this country.



You forgot to address my main point to your previous post: if you are afraid that travel may bring in the virus and make it harder to track, why let in visitor from green list countries which would've mingled with everybody else in europe and that are even harder to track than a Irish resident?


The policies are illogical and incoherent... I prefer to get advise from competent, coherent leaders

So what is your position on the American tourists? I personally think they shouldn't be allowed in.

I think that the solution to that loophole is that it should be closed, not that it should be converted from a loophole to a free-for-all

Policies are usually illogical and incoherent when they don't suit a particular purpose, or if there is a lack of understanding on what they mean.

Dante7

LXFlyer wrote: »

I get that - but a request to remain in one location for 14 days and to avoid contact with others would effectively mean isolating yourself.

We could go on about semantics all day long.

There is no need to go on about semantics all day longs. One statement is correct, while the other is not. We are requested to restrict our movements as much as possible, not self-isolate.

Gonzo

I see Gibraltar is on the green list. You cannot enter Gibraltar without first either flying to Malaga from Ireland and then a bus from there to Gibraltar so you'd be going through Spain to get there.

The only other way is to fly to a large mainland UK airport (also not on green list) and then a direct flight from Manchester or London to Gibraltar.

yoshimitsu

Dante7 wrote: »

Folks, by all means just ignore everything this person says.

Reg114 is just making up stuff as he/she goes along... green list changes by the hour... locals dont welcome tourists... infections going up 100 fold.



Then the message is supposedly "by all means do what you think is right" but then here's me dumping a bunch of fake news to try to terrorize you into not going.

stargazer 68

Hooked wrote: »

Am I LEGALLY allowed to?

Yes of course you are. No one is stopping you leaving the country. Just do your 14 days on return. You may need to check with your insurance though as some insurers aren't covering people for travel, from what I read on other threads.

Limpy

Considering Schengen is open for business, with ease of travel, anyone can visit Ireland without having to isolate. Going from Prague to Bratislava ect wouldn't be difficult. Infact many people travel to different Schengen countries to travel to their final destination. They will do it even more so now to save 10 days holidays. Its a no brainer.

Donald Trump

Gonzo wrote: »

I see Gibraltar is on the green list. You cannot enter Gibraltar without first either flying to Malaga from Ireland and then a bus from there to Gibraltar so you'd be going through Spain to get there.

The only other way is to fly to a large mainland UK airport (also not on green list) and then a direct flight from Manchester or London to Gibraltar.

The people who come up with the list based their decision on the rates of infection in each "country". Let them make their decision on those terms rather than having to worry about travel logistics and timetables etc.



I don't get why people are so annoyed that they include certain countries. It is not as if having that country on a list takes up a place that could have been used by a "more useful" one.


And anyway, Coveney said that transiting through a non-green list does not make your trip non-green list.

afro man

Gonzo wrote: »

I see Gibraltar is on the green list. You cannot enter Gibraltar without first either flying to Malaga from Ireland and then a bus from there to Gibraltar so you'd be going through Spain to get there.

The only other way is to fly to a large mainland UK airport (also not on green list) and then a direct flight from Manchester or London to Gibraltar.

seemingly now you are also allowed to transit through countries not on Green list

VG31

afro man wrote: »

seemingly now you are also allowed to transit through countries not on Green list

Yes you can fly through Heathrow to Gibraltar and not have to self-isolate. Simon Coveney confirmed that this morning.

Hooked

stargazer 68 wrote: »

Yes of course you are. No one is stopping you leaving the country. Just do your 14 days on return. You may need to check with your insurance though as some insurers aren't covering people for travel, from what I read on other threads.

Thanks for the reply...

Trying to weigh up a Ryanair voucher VS refund for prior holiday. My wife is working from home and badly needs to get away. We have a small camper van but it's just not the same with the best part of the season behind us and no availability on campsites. And Ireland being ALLERGIC to wild camping!

The 'tone' of the Travel restrictions would have you wondering what's allowed/legal/advisory/forbidden...

Donald Trump

Limpy wrote: »

They will do it even more so now to save 10 days holidays. Its a no brainer.

Flying back from Spain to Italy and then to Ireland to think that you are being smart and tricking the system is actually no smarter or more legal than flying from Spain to Dublin, filling out your form and heading to work the next day and just telling your boss you are back from your trip to Rome for essential family reasons.

yoshimitsu

Donald Trump wrote: »

So what is your position on the American tourists? I personally think they shouldn't be allowed in.

I think that the solution to that loophole is that it should be closed, not that it should be converted from a loophole to a free-for-all

Policies are usually illogical and incoherent when they don't suit a particular purpose, or if there is a lack of understanding on what they mean.

My position is perfectly aligned to yours Donal Trump (in this case at least)


To me it is proof that I shouldnt take every policy this government imposes as if it is the best in Europe, right? I think the EU has a better policy with regards to US travelers. I think you would agree with that statement.



So, by the same token, I think the EU also has a better policy with regards to intra-EU tourism. I think you would disagree with that statement.



But you follow my logic right...?



We all have brains and we're able to judge critically what makes and what doesnt make sense. Taking the regulation of this government as is, without comparing them with the rest of the EU, without checking the data and evidence, implying that the rest of the 440m Europeans are doing something "bad" but the 5m Irish have figured it out, I think, is a mistake.

Limpy

Donald Trump wrote: »

Flying back from Spain to Italy and then to Ireland to think that you are being smart and tricking the system is actually no smarter or more legal than flying from Spain to Dublin, filling out your form and heading to work the next day and just telling your boss you are back from your trip to Rome for essential family reasons.

When you fly abroad the form asks where you'll be for the first 3 days Only.

Polish people regularly use Berlin to travel to Ireland and UK, when some asks where were you they don't say Poland and Germany.

My point being if people in (Red) countries can travel easily via Schengen to Ireland why shouldn't they? Its within the law. Don't give me Moral BS as Ireland is open as we speak.

polesheep

Donald Trump wrote: »

A lot of countries were able to manage their outbreaks a lot better than Ireland was.



Ireland has had 355 deaths per million of population. Germany has had 110. The Czech Republic has only had 34. But if you look at their graph, their rate of new cases has started to go back up to almost where it was at the peak (You can argue points about testing etc.).



That would lend evidence to suggest that they might have better systems in place to cope, which would allow them to feel comfortable opening up earlier. What works for Berlin might not work for Dublin.



The average German that I've met gives the impression that they tend to respect and follow the little rules.....whereas the average Irish person.......

How does that change what that poster said regarding the EU's better handling of the pandemic?

Donald Trump

yoshimitsu wrote: »

My position is perfectly aligned to yours Donal Trump (in this case at least)


To me it is proof that I shouldnt take every policy this government imposes as if it is the best in Europe, right? I think the EU has a better policy with regards to US travelers. I think you would agree with that statement.



So, by the same token, I think the EU also has a better policy with regards to intra-EU tourism. I think you would disagree with that statement.



But you follow my logic right...?



We all have brains and we're able to judge critically what makes and what doesnt make sense. Taking the regulation of this government as is, without comparing them with the rest of the EU, without checking the data and evidence, implying that the rest of the 440m Europeans are doing something "bad" but the 5m Irish have figured it out, I think, is a mistake.

We weren't able to manage it earlier as well as some of those countries. If the Czech Republic has the same death rate over the next 5 months as the previous 5, they will have about 34 more people die per million. If we have the same rate in Ireland as we had for the past 5 months, we will have 355 more people die per million.



They were able to cope better than we were and probably have more faith in their own ability to do so. Were we still only at 34/million in Ireland, I might be calling for opening up too.



I am not confident that we could control an outbreak as well as those countries. It is not that they are "wrong" and we are "right". They will probably be fine and able to manage.

dundalkfc10

MM has just confirmed nobody will be forced to Quaranteen

Donald Trump

Limpy wrote: »

When you fly abroad the form asks where you'll be for the first 3 days Only.

Polish people regularly use Berlin to travel to Ireland and UK, when some asks where were you they don't say Poland and Germany.

My point being if people in (Red) countries can travel easily via Schengen to Ireland why shouldn't they? Its within the law. Don't give me Moral BS as Ireland is open as we speak.

You can do what you want dude. Fly to Spain and then spend money on an extra flight and organise your return trip via Rome if you want. Then you can go to work on they Monday morning and tell them you were on an essential trip to Rome (when you weren't).



Or you could just fly back from Spain and still tell them you were on an essential trip to Rome.


If you are going to do that anyway then sure why are you buying an extra flight to Rome? That aspect has nothing to do with morals. It's a bit stupid to go to that bother and expense when there is no advantage to do so (maybe apart from having to complete an online form)

claregal1

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

MM has just confirmed nobody will be forced to Quaranteen

Hi , where did you read or hear that ? We have just been told here at work that if we do travel on non essential travel regardless of whether it is on the green list on not that we have to quarantine for 14 days on our return , using AL or unpaid leave .

Have Tenerife booked for last week in Sept so hoping that we will be able to travel ..

Donald Trump

polesheep wrote: »

How does that change what that poster said regarding the EU's better handling of the pandemic?

I never said it did change that point.


However the poster appeared to be saying that because the systems on other countries showed that they can cope better, that we should take their guidelines as regards restrictions and apply them here.


The difference is that if you live in Berlin, fly to Madrid and return to Berlin with corona, you will have the German system taking care of the problem.


If you live in Dublin, fly to Madrid and return to Dublin with corona then you will have the Irish system taking care of the problem.



I don't trust the Irish system to do as good of a job as the German one. Therefore it is more risky for the person to go there from Dublin and return.

Donald Trump

claregal1 wrote: »

Hi , where did you read or hear that ? We have just been told here at work that if we do travel on non essential travel regardless of whether it is on the green list on not that we have to quarantine for 14 days on our return , using AL or unpaid leave .

Have Tenerife booked for last week in Sept so hoping that we will be able to travel ..

"forced to quarantine" means that they lock you up. They will not force you to quarantine in that sense. They won't seal you into your own house or lock you in a quarantine hotel.



You workplace can have its own stricter rules that are nothing to do with MM

yoshimitsu

Donald Trump wrote: »

We weren't able to manage it earlier as well as some of those countries. If the Czech Republic has the same death rate over the next 5 months as the previous 5, they will have about 34 more people die per million. If we have the same rate in Ireland as we had for the past 5 months, we will have 355 more people die per million.



They were able to cope better than we were and probably have more faith in their own ability to do so. Were we still only at 34/million in Ireland, I might be calling for opening up too.



I am not confident that we could control an outbreak as well as those countries. It is not that they are "wrong" and we are "right". They will probably be fine and able to manage.

I dont necessarily think any of these countries are expecting/modelling an outbreak like we had in February/March. So looking back at what happened over the last 5 months is wrong. We have deeply changed our habits and are aware of this risk, everyone of us. We wont have people coming back from ski holidays in jam packed planes with no masks, no disinfections and the day after going into work, to the gym, at church, to choir practice with no PPE and SD... the world has changed. Even in countries where people dont necessarily obey rules things have changed profoundly (see Italy and Spain for example). There will be (and have been) localized outbreaks but (again) these have been community driven. There are now precise and effective procedure to deal with them without causing a nationwide spike.

Take Italy for example, they haven't build new hospitals like in China. They have sourced more ventilators compared to pre-Covid but if hospitalizations go back to March levels it would still put the entire healthcare system under tremendous pressure. The assumptions for them and for the rest of Europe (and the big point that I think you're missing here) is that intra-EU tourism IS NOT a high risk activity. The WHO says so. ECDC says so. 5 weeks of data say so. This is not the way the virus will spread going forward. It was clearly the case in January and February (like i explained above) but it isn't now. Because of precautions during travel to prevent infections and because of the rapid response if a flare up is detected.
I get what you're saying, the Irish healthcare system cannot cope with the surge seen in other countries in Feb/Mar 2020... fair. But the point is that all the EU member states that have allowed free movement of people have done so with the belief that we wont go back there because of what we've learned and how we've prepared.

Limpy

Donald Trump wrote: »

You can do what you want dude. Fly to Spain and then spend money on an extra flight and organise your return trip via Rome if you want. Then you can go to work on they Monday morning and tell them you were on an essential trip to Rome (when you weren't).



Or you could just fly back from Spain and still tell them you were on an essential trip to Rome.


If you are going to do that anyway then sure why are you buying an extra flight to Rome? That aspect has nothing to do with morals. It's a bit stupid to go to that bother and expense when there is no advantage to do so (maybe apart from having to complete an online form)

The government should show solidarity with the EU. All Schengen countries open should be allowed on to the green list.

dundalkfc10

claregal1 wrote: »

Hi , where did you read or hear that ? We have just been told here at work that if we do travel on non essential travel regardless of whether it is on the green list on not that we have to quarantine for 14 days on our return , using AL or unpaid leave .

Have Tenerife booked for last week in Sept so hoping that we will be able to travel ..

He was asked in Leaders Qestions would there be legislation or a case of just asking people, and would they be renting out city west etc to force people and he said no wouldnt be doing any of that. Just fill out the form and they can reach you

LXFlyer

Dante7 wrote: »

There is no need to go on about semantics all day longs. One statement is correct, while the other is not. We are requested to restrict our movements as much as possible, not self-isolate.

OK fair point. Self-isolation is far more prescriptive in terms of what needs to take place at home.

However, abiding by the request to restrict our movements upon returning to Ireland does mean voluntarily imposing some quite restrictive measures on yourself, which was what I was getting at.

Per the HSE (linked to from the DFA site):

wrote:

Restricting our movements means avoiding contact with other people and social situations as much as possible.

• Do not go to work.
• Do not use public transport.
• Do not have visitors at your home
• Do not visit others, even if you usually care for them.
• Do not go to the shops or pharmacy unless it's absolutely necessary - where possible, order your groceries online or have some family or friends drop them off.
• Do not meet face-to-face with older people, anyone with a long-term medical condition or pregnant women

That's quite restricting!

Out of curiousity, what did you do when you returned from Spain?

MickeyLeari

There has been an unhealthy obsession with people going on holidays.

In the meantime:

- The Necessary advice is being lost with this distraction. Safe behaviour no matter where you are.
- close contacts of infected people are requiring persuasion and then not turning up for tests - this should be the number one issues.
- preparations are needed for the forthcoming winter including the key messages on the flu vaccine and indeed emphasis personal behaviour.

It is not people heading off to Greece and Italy who will be harming lives.