Green List (Who will be on it?)

The_Brood

3xh wrote: »

I agree.

First off, that doc is for public service managers’ eyes. Not the general population in the private sector.

Secondly, whilst if a public service worker took a case of unfair treatment against the state for making them take an extra 14 days Leave, it would take years for it to be resolved through any process mechanism, the state wouldn’t have a hope in a case taken by it against a staff member who either lied about their destination or refused to take extra leave days upon their Red Country return.

As strict as that wording is, it’s toothless.

Public workers are residents of Ireland, and the document refers to their rights (or lack thereof in this case).

And certainly in no court in the world would that ever hold up as a defence.

"Well we published a set of rules and made specific threats of punishment over non-compliance, but practically people could have just gotten away with it and likely we would have lost the employment tribunal cases anyway.....so treat that as advisory guidelines."

Nope. They published this, they sent that to HR managers, and the public work force were threatened by it. Ergo it is impossible for the them to claim before a court they are only giving advice and are not placing restrictions.

Again, if there is any justice, the government will lose this case completely.

Scoondal

The_Brood wrote: »

Public workers are residents of Ireland, and the document refers to their rights (or lack thereof in this case).

And certainly in no court in the world would that ever hold up as a defence.

"Well we published a set of rules and made specific threats of punishment over non-compliance, but practically people could have just gotten away with it and likely we would have lost the employment tribunal cases anyway.....so treat that as advisory guidelines."

Nope. They published this, they sent that to HR managers, and the public work force were threatened by it. Ergo it is impossible for the them to claim before a court they are only giving advice and are not placing restrictions.

Again, if there is any justice, the government will lose this case completely.

Yes. The Irish government would cave in straight away just like in the Ryanair case. They have not got a legal leg to stand upon. They want to govern through fear.

Happydays2020

It is no wonder that Ryanair are up in arms. Below are the 14 day Irish figures per county - and yet we are banning travel to Germany (27.3), Poland (25.6), Italy (34.7) and Greece (39.2).

The updated ‘green’ (normal precautions) list outlined below is based on ECDC data on Thursday 24 September, and takes effect from Monday 28 September. Until then, the earlier list continues to apply.

‘Green’ (Normal Precautions) List (effective from Monday 28 September)

Cyprus*
Finland*
Latvia*
Liechtenstein
‘Green’ (Normal Precautions) List (remains in effect until midnight on Sunday 27 September)

Cyprus*
Finland*
Germany *
Iceland*
Latvia*
Lithuania*
Poland
Inclusion on the list does not imply the absence of any restrictions on arrivals in those countries. Citizens considering travel to countries marked with an asterisk above * should note that quarantine, testing or other restrictions are currently in place for arrivals from other jurisdictions, including Ireland. The situation will continue to evolve quickly. Citizens who are considering travel to particular locations are advised to monitor news and information from the public authorities in their destination.

larchielads

We just booked Poland last week off the greenlist now apparently. Will we need a negative covid test to travel or whats a requirement to travel. Will we have to quarantine/isolate or restrict movements when we get there?

Or is it likely to change if and when we supposedly change to the traffic light system in mid october? We are travelling last week of october.

3xh

I agree^^^ scoondal and The_Broon.

Feria40

larchielads wrote: »

We just booked Poland last week off the greenlist now apparently. Will we need a negative covid test to travel or whats a requirement to travel. Will we have to quarantine/isolate or restrict movements when we get there?

Or is it likely to change if and when we supposedly change to the traffic light system in mid october? We are travelling last week of october.

Poland do not require incoming travellers to quarantine. They have a small RED list which includes the likes of Spain and the USA. Of course with the numbers here you never know when we could get added but it's pretty unlikely unless things get out of hand in Poland

Edit. Yes it is a recommendation that you restrict your movements on returning ( that does not mean locking yourselves into the house)

The_Brood

Happydays2020 wrote: »

It is no wonder that Ryanair are up in arms. Below are the 14 day Irish figures per county - and yet we are banning travel to Germany (27.3), Poland (25.6), Italy (34.7) and Greece (39.2).

The updated ‘green’ (normal precautions) list outlined below is based on ECDC data on Thursday 24 September, and takes effect from Monday 28 September. Until then, the earlier list continues to apply.

‘Green’ (Normal Precautions) List (effective from Monday 28 September)

Cyprus*
Finland*
Latvia*
Liechtenstein
‘Green’ (Normal Precautions) List (remains in effect until midnight on Sunday 27 September)

Cyprus*
Finland*
Germany *
Iceland*
Latvia*
Lithuania*
Poland
Inclusion on the list does not imply the absence of any restrictions on arrivals in those countries. Citizens considering travel to countries marked with an asterisk above * should note that quarantine, testing or other restrictions are currently in place for arrivals from other jurisdictions, including Ireland. The situation will continue to evolve quickly. Citizens who are considering travel to particular locations are advised to monitor news and information from the public authorities in their destination.

Ah, Liechtenstein. Another country with no airport. Going by this and previous green list countries landlocked by red ones, it seems the government is subtly trying to encourage us to take up skydiving.

gerogerigegege

The_Brood wrote: »

The government is certainly telling that to public workers. See 4.5 here: https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/0cfe6-update-24th-august-2020-to-guidance-on-working-arrangements-during-covid-19-for-the-civil-and-public-service/

there's no restrictions for public sector workers. that changed about 6 weeks ago.

Happydays2020

gerogerigegege wrote: »

there's no restrictions for public sector workers. that changed about 6 weeks ago.

4.5 What leave arrangements apply to civil and public servants on return from non-essential travel overseas?
The Government has advised that the safest thing to do is not to travel overseas.
Anyone coming into Ireland (apart from Northern Ireland and individuals arriving in Ireland from locations with a security rating of normal precautions “green”), is required to restrict their movements for 14 days. Responsibility to provide for the period of restricted movement arising from non-essential travel overseas is a matter for each individual employee.

In order to protect public health, employees are required to advise their employer of any intention to travel overseas.

Where there is an intention to undertake non-essential travel overseas to a non “green” country, all employees must make provision by way of an annual leave or unpaid leave application for the additional period of restricted movement, in line with the normal rules applying in the relevant sector. This arrangement is applicable to all civil and public servants regardless of whether they can work from home.

Should an employee return from a “green” country there will be no requirement to restrict their movements. However, employees should continue to notify their
employer of their intention to travel overseas. The security rating of countries will be regularly reviewed and may change, and employees should be aware that whatever restricted movement requirements are in place on their date of return to Ireland will apply to them. Employees should log on to www.dfa.ie immediately prior to their return to Ireland to ensure they are fully apprised of any changes to the security rating of countries, and any necessary requirement to restrict their movements.

SusanC10

gerogerigegege wrote: »

there's no restrictions for public sector workers. that changed about 6 weeks ago.

Have you a link to where it changed please ?

steve-o

The_Brood wrote: »

Ah, Liechtenstein. Another country with no airport. Going by this and previous green list countries landlocked by red ones, it seems the government is subtly trying to encourage us to take up skydiving.

Not only does it have no airport, but its covid rates are about as statistically significant as Leitrim. Is there no-one in the DFA with any common sense?

Scoondal

My sister returned from France on Saturday. No issues from French and Irish border controls.

endofrainbow

Scoondal wrote: »

My sister returned from France on Saturday. No issues from French and Irish border controls.

What 'issues ' was she expecting?

ChikiChiki

Scoondal wrote: »

My sister returned from France on Saturday. No issues from French and Irish border controls.

There won't be any issues. The whole response is based on personal responsibility. You can still go where ever you like.

ChikiChiki

The_Brood wrote: »

The government is certainly telling that to public workers. See 4.5 here: https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/0cfe6-update-24th-august-2020-to-guidance-on-working-arrangements-during-covid-19-for-the-civil-and-public-service/

Thats what happens in a ****e work culture of numpty career civil servants promoted beyond their competence ceiling.

They come up with tripe like that. They better be prepared to lose staff motivation and productivity over time with such nonsense. So short sighted.

Scoondal

ChikiChiki wrote: »

There won't be any issues. The whole response is based on personal responsibility. You can still go where ever you like.

Correct. The government stated in court that there are "no travel restrictions" for Irish citizens.
So, what is this green list of countries ... what does it mean ? I can go anywhere I want.

Higgins5473

Scoondal wrote: »

I can go anywhere I want.

You can, although there could be an issue with your movements upon your arrival wherever you land and how you will be treated. For example, Latvia (for no specific reason)...

All travelers, including citizens and permanent residents of Latvia, who have arrived from countries in which the 14-day cumulative number of COVID-19 cases has exceeded 16 individuals per 100,000, must self-isolate for a 10-day or 14-day period upon arrival in Latvia. Upon arrival, a registration form should be fulfilled.

Something to be considered is where you are going to, especially with the wording "must" and then the registration is a declaration agreeing to this. Personally, I would not like to find out what provisions certain places have in place for people that do not adhere to this.

Greg81

Guys,

Came back from Italy on Saturday.

No issues there. Spent some time on Sicily.
Everyone is wearing masks in shops or everywhere where social distancing is not possible.
"Tourists spots" almost empty. No crowds, no Q's.

Super happy I went.

SusanC10

Does anyone know if the rule for Public Servants will change when Ireland adopt the EU travel rules ?

My sister is a Public Servant who is WFH at the moment. She has been told that she needs to tell her Manager where she is going if applying for AL and for how long etc.
If going anywhere which isn't on Green List, she needs to take 14 days after she returns. She has been told to take unpaid leave if she doesn't have enough AL left to cover even though she is WFH.

She has booked to go to Italy end of October.

The_Brood

SusanC10 wrote: »

Does anyone know if the rule for Public Servants will change when Ireland adopt the EU travel rules ?

My sister is a Public Servant who is WFH at the moment. She has been told that she needs to tell her Manager where she is going if applying for AL and for how long etc.
If going anywhere which isn't on Green List, she needs to take 14 days after she returns. She has been told to take unpaid leave if she doesn't have enough AL left to cover even though she is WFH.

She has booked to go to Italy end of October.

The great mystery in all this is how in the hell are the government not being sued down to the ground by public service unions over this. This is North Korea-style control of employees and residents, yet there seems to be not a peep from anyone important.

And again, the hilarious thing is that while the government makes these rules for public service, they argue before the courts against the airlines that they have not restricted travel.

The whole situation is beyond bonkers.

facehugger99

SusanC10 wrote: »

Does anyone know if the rule for Public Servants will change when Ireland adopt the EU travel rules ?

My sister is a Public Servant who is WFH at the moment. She has been told that she needs to tell her Manager where she is going if applying for AL and for how long etc.
If going anywhere which isn't on Green List, she needs to take 14 days after she returns. She has been told to take unpaid leave if she doesn't have enough AL left to cover even though she is WFH.

She has booked to go to Italy end of October.

People are idiots for engaging with this nonsense.

There is no legal or contractual requirement for any worker to disclose this information to their employer.

The_Brood

facehugger99 wrote: »

People are idiots for engaging with this nonsense.

There is no legal or contractual requirement for any worker to disclose this information to their employer.

Right, ok? So the government tells you in writing, through the published doc I linked to, and through HR, that you are mandated to do this and will face consequences if you do not comply - and one is an "idiot" if they fail to deliberately ignore it?

You clearly know a hell of a lot more than us about how these things work, congrats, but I fail to see how someone is an "idiot" for failing to match your level of insight? Everything I have learned about life is that if you lie to your employer and deliberately ignore their rules and warnings - not guidelines but mandates - you're putting your job on the line. Which "non-idiot" school did you go to to learn your wisdom?

polesheep

The_Brood wrote: »

Right, ok? So the government tells you in writing, through the published doc I linked to, and through HR, that you are mandated to do this and will face consequences if you do not comply - and one is an "idiot" if they fail to deliberately ignore it?

You clearly know a hell of a lot more than us about how these things work, congrats, but I fail to see how someone is an "idiot" for failing to match your level of insight? Everything I have learned about life is that if you lie to your employer and deliberately ignore their rules and warnings - not guidelines but mandates - you're putting your job on the line. Which "non-idiot" school did you go to to learn your wisdom?

Honest question, do you know of anyone who has received this document other than management? I have asked around and cannot find any public servant who has. It's an important point, because if you have not seen the document then you may well be unaware of the rule and if so you can hardly be blamed for breaking it. And is anyone actually being asked where they are going? I know my wife wasn't and she's a nurse.

The_Brood

polesheep wrote: »

Honest question, do you know of anyone who has received this document other than management? I have asked around and cannot find any public servant who has. It's an important point, because if you have not seen the document then you may well be unaware of the rule and if so you can hardly be blamed for breaking it. And is anyone actually being asked where they are going? I know my wife wasn't and she's a nurse.

The document is linked directly in the HR emails sent to all public servants. And the emails themselves quote directly the relevant section. It is also publicly available.

Our experiences are very different then because all other public servants I have spoken with (in different agencies) have received the exact same communication.

Andywyer1983

I’m off to Greece in the morning, I’m not a civil servant but work in small company in the construction industry. I booked my holiday while Greece was on the green list and obviously it isn’t anymore. I get on very well with my employer, and out of courtesy told him I was going to Greece either way. And his exact response to me was, you do whatever you like because there’s **** all me or anybody else can do about it anyway. We are all big boys and girls , I’ll take the same precautions in Greece as I would in Ireland because at the end of the day I don’t want any virus, Covid or otherwise. But as far as I can see, and believe me I’ve looked hard over the last few weeks - we are free to travel where and when we like without repercussions. Will let you all know how it goes tomorrow.

The_Brood

Andywyer1983 wrote: »

I’m off to Greece in the morning, I’m not a civil servant but work in small company in the construction industry. I booked my holiday while Greece was on the green list and obviously it isn’t anymore. I get on very well with my employer, and out of courtesy told him I was going to Greece either way. And his exact response to me was, you do whatever you like because there’s **** all me or anybody else can do about it anyway. We are all big boys and girls , I’ll take the same precautions in Greece as I would in Ireland because at the end of the day I don’t want any virus, Covid or otherwise. But as far as I can see, and believe me I’ve looked hard over the last few weeks - we are free to travel where and when we like without repercussions. Will let you all know how it goes tomorrow.

That's fantastic for you, because your employer has said he has no problem with it. But others like public servants, who have been told by official government communication they can not do this and will be fined 2 weeks wages - they are obviously in a different situation.

And by the sounds of it it sounds like public servants have been screwed over massively.

mike222

Enjoy!

3xh

Andywyer1983 wrote: »

I’m off to Greece in the morning, I’m not a civil servant but work in small company in the construction industry. I booked my holiday while Greece was on the green list and obviously it isn’t anymore. I get on very well with my employer, and out of courtesy told him I was going to Greece either way. And his exact response to me was, you do whatever you like because there’s **** all me or anybody else can do about it anyway. We are all big boys and girls , I’ll take the same precautions in Greece as I would in Ireland because at the end of the day I don’t want any virus, Covid or otherwise. But as far as I can see, and believe me I’ve looked hard over the last few weeks - we are free to travel where and when we like without repercussions. Will let you all know how it goes tomorrow.

Enjoy.

I’m sure you’ve checked already but I understand Greece requires entering passengers to notify them via an online link of your impending arrival.

I’ve heard of a family that got caught out last week.

I know in Crete they do targeted testing of arrivals too so you may get a free test out of it in the airport (whichever it is, I’m sure it’s a Greece wide policy) when you arrive.

Happydays2020

Andywyer1983 wrote: »

I’m off to Greece in the morning, I’m not a civil servant but work in small company in the construction industry. I booked my holiday while Greece was on the green list and obviously it isn’t anymore. I get on very well with my employer, and out of courtesy told him I was going to Greece either way. And his exact response to me was, you do whatever you like because there’s **** all me or anybody else can do about it anyway. We are all big boys and girls , I’ll take the same precautions in Greece as I would in Ireland because at the end of the day I don’t want any virus, Covid or otherwise. But as far as I can see, and believe me I’ve looked hard over the last few weeks - we are free to travel where and when we like without repercussions. Will let you all know how it goes tomorrow.

Have a great time. Make sure as others said to do the online form ASAP if not done so already.

facehugger99

The_Brood wrote: »

Right, ok? So the government tells you in writing, through the published doc I linked to, and through HR, that you are mandated to do this and will face consequences if you do not comply - and one is an "idiot" if they fail to deliberately ignore it?

You clearly know a hell of a lot more than us about how these things work, congrats, but I fail to see how someone is an "idiot" for failing to match your level of insight? Everything I have learned about life is that if you lie to your employer and deliberately ignore their rules and warnings - not guidelines but mandates - you're putting your job on the line. Which "non-idiot" school did you go to to learn your wisdom?

The document you linked is a guidance document - the clue is in the title.

And yes, anyone who engages with the nonsense contained within, is an idiot.