Aide-de-camp to the Taoiseach, why?

expectationlost

Why does the Taoiseach need an military personal assistant?

this link describes what an Aide-de-camp historically was but it but doesn't explain the current need.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aide-de-camp#Ireland

One eyed Jack

expectationlost wrote: »

Why does the Taoiseach need an military personal assistant?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aide-de-camp#Ireland

Eh? Even your own link makes it clear that it’s the President has an aides-de-camp, and explains why too -


The President of Ireland, as Supreme Commander of the Irish Defence Forces, is served by Aides-de-Camp who assist with day-to-day presidential duties, accompany the President on official public engagements in Ireland and on State Visits abroad, and represent the President at funerals and on state occasions. There is an ADC on duty 24/7 at Áras an Uachtaráin.

expectationlost

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Eh? Even your own link makes it clear that it’s the President has an aides-de-camp, and explains why too -


The President of Ireland, as Supreme Commander of the Irish Defence Forces, is served by Aides-de-Camp who assist with day-to-day presidential duties, accompany the President on official public engagements in Ireland and on State Visits abroad, and represent the President at funerals and on state occasions. There is an ADC on duty 24/7 at Áras an Uachtaráin.

It mentions some of the things they do but it doesn't explain why they need a military personal assistant.

I know we're supposed to offer thoughtful, reasoned and articulate responses in this forum, but there is only one possible explanation I can think of, Ego,

What possible, reasonable explanation could there be, except as a status symbol?

The Office of the Tanaiste in Government buildings is another one that seems difficult to justify. The enhanced office was created in 2011 to handle the huge amount of work that was going through the Taoiseach's office to do with Ireland's sovereign debt crisis and EU-IMF rescue programme. They got rid of this when the economy recovered.

Ministers already have an office in Government Buildings, and I don't see anything that justifies extra staff for the Tanaiste, being as it is a mainly ceremonial role.

Fine Gael (sometimes quite fairly) prides itself on being careful with public money, pointing out that it's other people's money, and you just don't throw around other people's money. I'd like to see Varadkar being a bit more adherent to that mindset.

One eyed Jack

expectationlost wrote: »

It mentions some of the things they do but it doesn't explain why they need a military personal assistant.

I actually did a quick google to see what was I missing, and it turns out you weren’t satisfied with the answers you got then either -


Aide de Camp to An Taoiseach


I think it was explained very well the reasons for it in that thread, not sure anyone can be any more helpful this time around.

ronivek

Maybe the OP was referring to the Aide de Camp to the Tanaiste, Leo Varadkar?

expectationlost

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I actually did a quick google to see what was I missing, and it turns out you weren’t satisfied with the answers you got then either -


Aide de Camp to An Taoiseach


I think it was explained very well the reasons for it in that thread, not sure anyone can be any more helpful this time around.

oh I forget I posted that, I genuinely still don't understand the need for it, all I got from thread is "its tradition".... asking again because its reported that the Tainaiste will get one too https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/tanaiste-gets-aide-de-camp-as-varadkar-keeps-trappings-of-power-39336574.html

biko

President Higgins also has one to follow him around for some military purpose.

Signore Fancy Pants

An Aide de Camp is a ceremonial role similar to a personal assistant. The ADC represents (in our case a politician/head of state) at social, official and ceremonial events in attendance with and in lieu of a politician/head of state.

The Apppintment of an Taoiseach is effectively the day-to-day runner of the country and the senior political advisor to el Presidente.

As such, the Appointment warrants assistance from an official arm of the State, in this instance the Defence Forces. This is consistent with many other countries.

Visting dignitaries to Ireland are regularly graced with military guard of honours. A DF ADC can co-ordinate such events and liaise between military & civilian departments of both nations.

While it is an appointment ataches to status, there is more to it than "for the sake of it".

ronivek

Even our military spends far more time as a civil service body than it does engaging in actual military matters:

• They fly our national air ambulance and rescue craft; and also the Garda aircraft.
• They perform fishery patrol duties which would otherwise be assigned to the coast guard.
• They provide ceremonial escorts for visiting dignitaries.
• They provide hazardous chemical and bomb disposal functions for the Gardai and other civil bodies.
• They provide counter-terrorism training and operations via the Army Ranger Wing which in many other countries would be provided by police services.
• Military Intelligence focuses primarily on counter-terrorism and spends much of its time working with the Gardai.

I suspect the Aide de Camp are simply another manner in which our military provides administrative and ceremonial support to certain high-ranking members of Government; nothing more. It's not like they're directing military operations at the behest of the Tanaiste; they're just another civil servant.

expectationlost

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

An Aide de Camp is a ceremonial role similar to a personal assistant. The ADC represents (in our case a politician/head of state) at social, official and ceremonial events in attendance with and in lieu of a politician/head of state.

why doesn't some other minister go if needs be?

The Apppintment of an Taoiseach is effectively the day-to-day runner of the country and the senior political advisor to el Presidente.

As such, the Appointment warrants assistance from an official arm of the State, in this instance the Defence Forces. This is consistent with many other countries.

huh?

Visting dignitaries to Ireland are regularly graced with military guard of honours. A DF ADC can co-ordinate such events and liaise between military & civilian departments of both nations.

thankfully we have Prime Minister/President setup so our Prime Minister doesn't have to spend so much time doing ceremonial tasks and going to dinners with heads of states... but surely a civilian member of the Department of the Taoiseach can ring up the Defences forces HQ and arrange things they don't need a military officer to follow them around in order to liaise.

sdanseo

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I know we're supposed to offer thoughtful, reasoned and articulate responses in this forum, but there is only one possible explanation I can think of, Ego,

What possible, reasonable explanation could there be, except as a status symbol?

ADC are not simply ceremonial. They are a support officer to the office holder. They are administrators, military liaison, and many other things.

Even if ceremony was the biggest function, why is that a problem? The cost in real terms is extremely low in the scheme of things. Difference in pay between a civilian (probably AP/PO grade, so circa 80k+) and a Colonel is negligible. Their functions, sure, could be performed by a civilian but the civilian would probably be paid a similar amount. Some of the ceremony (which all countries indulge in) is paid for by a national sense of pride felt when we see our country being represented well by it. For the exact same reason as your granny spent an extra few quid on the really nice silver or china for special occasions.

Would you demolish all of the ceremonial institutions of state for the purposes of penny pinching?

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The Office of the Tanaiste in Government buildings is another one that seems difficult to justify. The enhanced office was created in 2011 to handle the huge amount of work that was going through the Taoiseach's office to do with Ireland's sovereign debt crisis and EU-IMF rescue programme. They got rid of this when the economy recovered.

Ministers already have an office in Government Buildings, and I don't see anything that justifies extra staff for the Tanaiste, being as it is a mainly ceremonial role.

Fine Gael (sometimes quite fairly) prides itself on being careful with public money, pointing out that it's other people's money, and you just don't throw around other people's money. I'd like to see Varadkar being a bit more adherent to that mindset.

Tánaiste's office in GB was first set up by Albert Reynolds for seemingly quite constructive reasons, to enhance partnership and assist with the running of government. Exactly what a deputy should be and not at all ceremonial:

https://youtu.be/OCcBH3TvOF8?t=105

biko

biko wrote: »

President Higgins also has one to follow him around for some military purpose.

He carries the helium canister that Higgins inhales to add credibility to his speeches.

expectationlost

ronivek wrote: »

Even our military spends far more time as a civil service body than it does engaging in actual military matters:

• They fly our national air ambulance and rescue craft; and also the Garda aircraft.
• They perform fishery patrol duties which would otherwise be assigned to the coast guard.
• They provide ceremonial escorts for visiting dignitaries.
• They provide hazardous chemical and bomb disposal functions for the Gardai and other civil bodies.
• They provide counter-terrorism training and operations via the Army Ranger Wing which in many other countries would be provided by police services.
• Military Intelligence focuses primarily on counter-terrorism and spends much of its time working with the Gardai.

I suspect the Aide de Camp are simply another manner in which our military provides administrative and ceremonial support to certain high-ranking members of Government; nothing more. It's not like they're directing military operations at the behest of the Tanaiste; they're just another civil servant.

I really don't think you can compare the Aide-de-Camp to the other things you listed.

ronivek

expectationlost wrote: »

I really don't think you can compare the Aide-de-Camp to the other things you listed.

The fundamental point I'm making is that our military are not there to wage war; or even realistically for the defence of our nation from armed aggression by other nations. They're effectively a civil defence agency who perform duties in support of our society and Government; hence why shouldn't we have officers assisting our high-ranking members of Government?

expectationlost

ronivek wrote: »

The fundamental point I'm making is that our military are not there to wage war; or even realistically for the defence of our nation from armed aggression by other nations. They're effectively a civil defence agency who perform duties in support of our society and Government; hence why shouldn't we have officers assisting our high-ranking members of Government?

because the other things you listed require a huge amount of training and equipment and as you said we don't fight so many wars so its a way for the army to keep up its training, those huge operations can't be compared to the Aide-de-camp. What civil defence does he require

Signore Fancy Pants

ronivek wrote: »

Even our military spends far more time as a civil service body than it does engaging in actual military matters:

ronivek wrote: »

[*]They fly our national air ambulance and rescue craft; and also the Garda aircraft.

Performed as part of ATCP/ATCP operations. A military tasking. We also had a SAR capability not so long ago. Do you want the above privatised?

ronivek wrote: »

[*]They perform fishery patrol duties which would otherwise be assigned to the coast guard

.

Fisheries patrol duties are in combination of securing our territorial waters, a military tasking. In addition to recording and conducting armed boardings of vessels of interest.

ronivek wrote: »

[*]They provide ceremonial escorts for visiting dignitaries.

A military ceremonial tasking.

ronivek wrote: »

[*]They provide hazardous chemical and bomb disposal functions for the Gardai and other civil bodies

.

Performed as part of ATCP/ATCP operations. A military tasking.

ronivek wrote: »

[*]They provide counter-terrorism training and operations via the Army Ranger Wing which in many other countries would be provided by police services.

Performed as part of ATCP/ATCP operations. A military tasking. The DF have the training, equipment and resources to perform the function.

ronivek wrote: »

[*]Military Intelligence focuses primarily on counter-terrorism and spends much of its time working with the Gardai

Not accurate.

ronivek wrote: »

I suspect the Aide de Camp are simply another manner in which our military provides administrative and ceremonial support to certain high-ranking members of Government; nothing more. It's not like they're directing military operations at the behest of the Tanaiste; they're just another civil servant.

More or less Correcto.

sdanseo

sdanseo wrote: »

ADC are not simply ceremonial. They are a support officer to the office holder. They are administrators, military liaison, and many other things.

Oh? Tell us more.

I wonder how Tainisti managaed in the past. What do they administrate? What support do they offer that the Tanaiste needs?

sdanseo

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Oh? Tell us more.

Improving relations for one. You tell me the visual of an Irish Military officer being warmly welcomed to Windsor Castle or the Queen's ADC to Dublin, wasn't powerful. Goes a long way to improving public sentiment and international relations.

Shows how far we've come. Some things like that you can't put a price on.

If you want to talk about a waste of money, wander over to the threads on the NCH, Western Rail Corridor or the National Broadband Scheme. An extra Aide de Camp isn't the bastion of examples for saving a few quid.

ronivek

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

...

I'm not sure why anyone is taking my statements as some kind of attack on our military; I'm simply stating that they are far more integral to our normal everyday lives as civilians than is the case in many other nations. This is in large part due to our neutrality; and I have no issue with this.

You keep mentioning Aide to the Civil Power and that is precisely my point; that the vast vast majority of their work is indeed acting as Aide to the Civil Power. So the fact they provide Aide-de-Camps to high-ranking members of Government does not surprise me in the slightest; even ignoring the ceremonial aspect.

As to your comment on Military Intelligence I don't pretend to be an expert on the matter; my only awareness of their function comes via the Gardai. What else do they work on if not primarily counter-intelligence and counter-terrorism?

Signore Fancy Pants

expectationlost wrote: »

why doesn't some other minister go if needs be?
huh?

Well simply because "some other Minister" may be lower in the heirarchy of political office. It is not like for like. An ADC officially represents the appointment of an Taoiseach (without subordinate powers of course). Thats why.

expectationlost wrote: »

thankfully we have Prime Minister/President setup so our Prime Minister doesn't have to spend so much time doing ceremonial tasks and going to dinners with heads of states... but surely a civilian member of the Department of the Taoiseach can ring up the Defences forces HQ and arrange things they don't need a military somebody to follow them around in order to liaise.

As I said, theres more to it than I have outlined. It's also "tradition" going back centuries to have a senior military advisor joined to the hip of those in administrative charge. Not only for council but also for prestige, security and liaison.

I dont think you quite understand the nuances and importance of a liaison.

Could it be axed tomorow and not replaced? Sure it could.

kravmaga

Deleted User wrote: »

He carries the helium canister that Higgins inhales to add credibility to his speeches.

And the mobile platform to give him a bit of height before speeches:D

sdanseo

sdanseo wrote: »

Improving relations for one. You tell me the visual of an Irish Military officer being warmly welcomed to Windsor Castle or the Queen's ADC to Dublin, wasn't powerful. Goes a long way to improving public sentiment and international relations.

I don't think it was powerful but I'm not into displays of pomp, that's fine, I know a lot of people love it.

I'm asking what the Taoiseach's aide-de-camp is administrating and managing, specifically. It was mentioned earlier. You're presumably referring to the President's, and that's not in dispute.

Signore Fancy Pants

ronivek wrote: »

I'm not sure why anyone is taking my statements as some kind of attack on our military; I'm simply stating that they are far more integral to our normal everyday lives as civilians than is the case in many other nations. This is in large part due to our neutrality; and I have no issue with this.

You keep mentioning Aide to the Civil Power and that is precisely my point; that the vast vast majority of their work is indeed acting as Aide to the Civil Power. So the fact they provide Aide-de-Camps to high-ranking members of Government does not surprise me in the slightest; even ignoring the ceremonial aspect.

As to your comment on Military Intelligence I don't pretend to be an expert on the matter; my only awareness of their function comes via the Gardai. What else do they work on if not primarily counter-intelligence and counter-terrorism?

Im not taking your statements as an attack on the DF, just clarifying your points for those who are not as au fait, its nothing personal.

We are not a "war going nation" that is correct. However, militarily we deploy up to 1,400 troops (of <8500) per year on UN/EU/PfP peackeeping/peace enforcement mission and humanitarian assistance. We conduct and partake in foreign military training and cross exercises.

I take your point, on island the DF primarily conduct ATCP/ATCA operations. Out of your list, theres not many that arent conducted by military or armed elements in other countries either.

expectationlost

expectationlost wrote: »

why doesn't some other minister go if needs be?

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Well simply because "some other Minister" may be lower in the heirarchy of political office. It is not like for like. An ADC officially represents the appointment of an Taoiseach (without subordinate powers of course). Thats why.



As I said, theres more to it than I have outlined. It's also "tradition" going back centuries to have a senior military advisor joined to the hip of those in administrative charge. Not only for council but also for prestige, security and liaison.

surely the Gardai are his security.

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

I dont think you quite understand the nuances and importance of a liaison.

well explain it to me rather then just telling me I don't understand it.


If needs be a military person could be located in the Department of the Taoiseach, still don't need to be the Taoiseach's assistant.

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Could it be axed tomorow and not replaced? Sure it could.

ronivek

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Im not taking your statements as an attack on the DF, just clarifying your points for those who are not as au fait, its nothing personal.

We are not a "war going nation" that is correct. However, militarily we deploy up to 1,400 troops (of <8500) per year on UN/EU/PfP peackeeping/peace enforcement mission and humanitarian assistance. We conduct and partake in foreign military training and cross exercises.

I take your point, on island the DF primarily conduct ATCP/ATCA operations. Out of your list, theres not many that arent conducted by military or armed elements in other countries either.

Understood; my terminology wasn't very precise to be fair. I wasn't trying to claim the Defence Forces do not perform any military functions; simply trying to emphasise their ATCA/P work of which they undertake a significant amount daily.

Looking back at the examples I gave you're right that in many cases they are performed by military elements; but equally in many cases they are handled by law enforcement agencies. Usually that seems to be a function of the size of a country and the history of its own military. For example in the UK I believe the London Met are in charged of EOD in London and their surrounds; but the Navy (naturally) handle underwater ordnance and the RAF air-dropped ordnance.

Getting slightly off topic; just find it interesting though.

Signore Fancy Pants

expectationlost wrote: »

surely the Gardai are his security.

Correct, my reference was to a historical partial function of an ADC.

expectationlost wrote: »

well explain it to me rather then just telling me I don't understand it.

A liaison officer performs various high and low level administrative tasks which can include continuity, consistency, timekeeping, travel and security arrangements, staff management, daily taskings, diary scheduling, etc.

They also liaise with their counterparts across national and international departments in regard to meeting schedules, diplomat biographies, national customs, task organisation and operational orders and adhering to national/international diplomatic protocols.

While senior politicians also have special advisors for planing and policy issues, an ADC is there also for personal matters. They also basically make sure the appointment holder does not embarass themselves, their office or insult dignitaries by any means.

expectationlost wrote: »

If needs be a military person could be located in the Department of the Taoiseach, still don't need to be the Taoiseach's assistant.

Well according to people with more knowledge than us, there is a need, albeit mainly a ceremonial function.

You seem to be entirely against a senior political appointment holder having an ADC. What part is it that irritates you, is it because it is a soldier or what?

Signore Fancy Pants

ronivek wrote: »

Understood; my terminology wasn't very precise to be fair. I wasn't trying to claim the Defence Forces do not perform any military functions; simply trying to emphasise their ATCA/P work of which they undertake a significant amount daily.

Looking back at the examples I gave you're right that in many cases they are performed by military elements; but equally in many cases they are handled by law enforcement agencies. Usually that seems to be a function of the size of a country and the history of its own military. For example in the UK I believe the London Met are in charged of EOD in London and their surrounds; but the Navy (naturally) handle underwater ordnance and the RAF air-dropped ordnance.

Getting slightly off topic; just find it interesting though.

Yeah good point, I suppose as a nation we are just too small to have multiple agencies. Plus, a serious lack of funding to support it.

We barely want to fund the DF as it is, even though they perform all of the above.

Could independant agencies be set up to deal with seperate issues? Yes of course.

expectationlost

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Correct, my reference was to a historical partial function of an ADC.

A liaison officer performs various high and low level administrative tasks which can include continuity, consistency, timekeeping, travel and security arrangements, staff management, daily taskings, diary scheduling, etc.

They also liaise with their counterparts across national and international departments in regard to meeting schedules, diplomat biographies, national customs, task organisation and operational orders and adhering to national/international diplomatic protocols.

While senior politicians also have special advisors for planing and policy issues, an ADC is there also for personal matters. They also basically make sure the appointment holder does not embarass themselves, their office or insult dignitaries by any means.

Well according to people with more knowledge than us, there is a need, albeit mainly a ceremonial function.

You seem to be entirely against a senior political appointment holder having an ADC. What part is it that irritates you, is it because it is a soldier or what?

all the above doesn't require a military officer.

Its archaic, I don't like tradition for traditions sake.

There must be current necessity to things.

Gods Gift

biko wrote: »

President Higgins also has one to follow him around for some military purpose.

With the launch codes.

Signore Fancy Pants

expectationlost wrote: »

all the above doesn't require a military officer.

Its archaic, I don't like tradition for traditions sake.

Ah so your initial question was rhetorical.

You don't actually want to know why, you just want people to know you are opposed to it.