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Barry Cowen sacked

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    #1652
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    there is no offence of turning away from a checkpoint.

    Correct and right. You will however raise a sizeable amount of suspicion from the Garda attending the checkpoint who may in all likeliness pursue the person turning away, and be extra cautious when checking him or her out to determine whether or not their turning away was merely coincidental, or if there was something going on which the person involved might not want the Gards to discover.

    Seems like in Barry Cowens particular case - he seemed to have a bit of gargle in the system, and was on a provisional license.

    First time in his puff he took a few pints and decided to drive home. What an unlucky chappy.


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    #1653
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    there is no offence of turning away from a checkpoint.

    In law? Yes there is. Failing to stop for the Gardaí is an offence.


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    #1654
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,470 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    In law? Yes there is. Failing to stop for the Gardaí is an offence.

    in order for that to happen the garda has to request you to stop. if you turn away before you reach a checkpoint there has been no request to stop.


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    #1655
    StackSteevens
    Closed Accounts Posts: 873 ✭✭✭StackSteevens


    mr_edge_to_you wrote: »
    Agree with you on Reynolds but I thought the comment itself was interesting.

    Exactly.

    But many B.ie intellectuals find it easier and much less challenging to shoot the messenger rather than to think about the message - a Cowenesque kneejerk, I'd call it!

    Looks to me as though there is a possibility that Biffo minimus may yet have to apologise to AGS unless he can substantiate his accusations.



    .


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    #1656
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    in order for that to happen the garda has to request you to stop. if you turn away before you reach a checkpoint there has been no request to stop.

    Well in what was leaked the Gardaí are alleged to have gone after him. They clearly saw him so could easily be interpreted as a failure to stop I would have thought. You are obliged to stop at a checkpoint.


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    #1657
    DellyBelly
    Registered Users Posts: 3,083 ✭✭✭DellyBelly


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    in order for that to happen the garda has to request you to stop. if you turn away before you reach a checkpoint there has been no request to stop.

    That makes sense but I suppose if you are seen turning away it would raise the suspicion of the garda. I reckon that's what happened here. Cowan turned away and the garda would have pursued him..


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    #1658
    Cute Hoor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,788 ✭✭✭Cute Hoor


    If I was cruising along to a Garda checkpoint around 8 o'clock, having drunk 2 pints 6 hours earlier, I'd be pretty relaxed and confident that I'd pass any test, the Garda would say 'Hows it going, you don't look like a man who was drinking, did you enjoy the match, have a nice evening, on you go' .

    If I was cruising along to a Garda checkpoint around 8 o'clock, having drunk a few pints during the day, I'd be thinking oh fcuk if they're breathalysing I could be goosed, I'll turn off down this boreen or maybe even go back and find a different route. The Gardai, noticing this, might come after me and, because they thought I was acting suspiciously, breathalyse me anyway.

    Easy to see how it could happen


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    #1659
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,470 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    Well in what was leaked the Gardaí are alleged to have gone after him. They clearly saw him so could easily be interpreted as a failure to stop I would have thought. You are obliged to stop at a checkpoint.

    only if you reach the checkpoint. if you dont reach the checkpoint you cant stop, can you? to reiterate, there is no offence of turning away from a checkpoint.


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    #1660
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    only if you reach the checkpoint. if you dont reach the checkpoint you cant stop, can you? to reiterate, there is no offence of turning away from a checkpoint.

    So if you are in a line of traffic at a busy checkpoint you can decide not to bother! I don’t think so.


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    #1661
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,470 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    So if you are in a line of traffic at a busy checkpoint you can decide not to bother! I don’t think so.

    well you think wrong then. as others have said you will draw attention to yourself if you turn away but the turning away is not an offence in and of itself. nothing you say will change that.


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    #1662
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    well you think wrong then. as others have said you will draw attention to yourself if you turn away but the turning away is not an offence in and of itself. nothing you say will change that.

    It’s comes down to the facts and reasonableness. Obviously if you received a phone call and turned away from checkpoint out of view of the Gardaí that’s different. But if you evade a checkpoint in full view of the Gardaí I would have thought that amounts to a failure to stop as you are obliged to stop at a checkpoint. Of course the Gardaí could always get you for careless or dangerous driving depending on the situation.


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    #1663
    Cute Hoor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,788 ✭✭✭Cute Hoor


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    It’s comes down to the facts and reasonableness. Obviously if you received a phone call and turned away from checkpoint out of view of the Gardaí that’s different. But if you evade a checkpoint in full view of the Gardaí I would have thought that amounts to a failure to stop as you are obliged to stop at a checkpoint. Of course the Gardaí could always get you for careless or dangerous driving depending on the situation.

    You're only obliged to stop when the Garda asks you to stop, i.e. at the actual checkpoint, not approaching it


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    #1664
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,470 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    It’s comes down to the facts and reasonableness. Obviously if you received a phone call and turned away from checkpoint out of view of the Gardaí that’s different. But if you evade a checkpoint in full view of the Gardaí I would have thought that amounts to a failure to stop as you are obliged to stop at a checkpoint. Of course the Gardaí could always get you for careless or dangerous driving depending on the situation.

    there is no offence of turning away from a checkpoint. try to get that into your skull.


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    #1665
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    It’s comes down to the facts and reasonableness. Obviously if you received a phone call and turned away from checkpoint out of view of the Gardaí that’s different. But if you evade a checkpoint in full view of the Gardaí I would have thought that amounts to a failure to stop as you are obliged to stop at a checkpoint. Of course the Gardaí could always get you for careless or dangerous driving depending on the situation.

    What specific provision of Legislation are you referring to?


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    #1666
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    joeguevara wrote: »
    What specific provision of Legislation are you referring to?

    As per the other thread, the times reported Cowen uturned,drove off and was chased by a Garda
    That would be evasion in my book if true


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    #1667
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    Cowen will not answer any questions and there are so so so many questions.
    Minister for Agriculture Barry Cowen has said he is not making any further comment on an allegation that he tried to evade a garda checkpoint.

    Speaking in Co Leitrim this morning Mr Cowen said he would rather make no further comment on the issue.

    "Enough has been said already", he said, and on legal advice he was not making any further comment.

    If you have nothing to hide, stop hiding.


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    #1668
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    I think he has jumped the shark at this stage.
    I was leaning towards giving him a break before. Now id actually eject him from FF if I was the leader of it.


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    #1669
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    As per the other thread, the times reported Cowen uturned,drove off and was chased by a Garda
    That would be evasion in my book if true

    I am not sure but don't think there is such an offence. If they followed you and you failed to stop, that would be an offence, but there is no offence as alluded. Stupid though, I definitely agree.


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    #1670
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,470 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    As per the other thread, the times reported Cowen uturned,drove off and was chased by a Garda
    That would be evasion in my book if true

    well then can you point to the offence in the statute book? it is available online so you should be able to link to it.


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    #1671
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,943 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    what year did the lower 20ml limit for learner drivers come in? 2007/2008 (it wasn't 2018 that just changed the punishment)

    2011 https://www.rsa.ie/en/utility/news/2012/review-of-lower-drink-driving-limits/


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    #1672
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    there is no offence of turning away from a checkpoint. try to get that into your skull.

    Try and talk in a civil manner. Good luck trying to tell a judge that uturning before a checkpoint is not a failure to stop.


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    #1673
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,779 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    It's not a criminal offence, but it'd be unacceptable to many people to have a Government minister doing a U turn at a checkpoint because he is drink-driving. No question it's a resigning matter. He's being exposed as a chancer now on top of the earlier stuff.


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    #1674
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,470 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    Try and talk in a civil manner. Good luck trying to tell a judge that uturning before a checkpoint is not a failure to stop.

    i would quite happily make that argument to a judge. i wouldn't have to though as a garda wouldn't be stupid enough to make that charge and neither would the DPP.


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    #1675
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    Try and talk in a civil manner. Good luck trying to tell a judge that uturning before a checkpoint is not a failure to stop.

    The issue is that there is no offence so even if a judge doesn't believe you then there is nothing that they can do. Does that make sense?


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    #1676
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,388 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    Sunny Disposition wrote: »
    It's not a criminal offence, but it'd be unacceptable to many people to have a Government minister doing a U turn at a checkpoint because he is drink-driving. No question it's a resigning matter. He's being exposed as a chancer now on top of the earlier stuff.

    This has been the issue throughout.

    He was chancing his arm driving on a provisional for decades.
    He was chancing his arm driving unaccompanied for decades.
    He was chancing his arm driving on motorways for decades.
    He was chancing his arm having a few (number unknown) pints and driving.
    He was chancing his arm not saying it to FF back in 2016 when he was caught.
    He was chancing his arm not mentioning the provisional licence when coming clean in the first instance.
    He was chancing his arm by not mentioning the checkpoint incident and is focusing on insisting that he wasn't charged with turning away from a checkpoint.

    The guy is a chancer and thinks he's smarter than everyone else. Ironically he's showing himself to be quite dim and can't see that the slow drip of his half truths is going to be his downfall.

    The cover up is often what sinks you, not the crime.


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    #1677
    sligojoek
    Registered Users Posts: 25,420 ✭✭✭✭sligojoek


    Fionnan Sheehan on radio1 discussing this now


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    #1678
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    Try and talk in a civil manner. Good luck trying to tell a judge that uturning before a checkpoint is not a failure to stop.

    If you turn before the checkpoint, where Garda might request you to stop, it's not a failure to stop - because you turned before reaching them.

    Driving through the checkpoint and failing to stop, or, when followed by Gardai with their lights etc and signalled to stop, you keep going would be a failure/refusal to stop.

    Cowen is hanging everything on a "you cannot prove I purposely turned away from your checkpoint evasively" defence it would seem.


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    #1679
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    KaneToad wrote: »
    This has been the issue throughout.

    He was chancing his arm driving on a provisional for decades.
    He was chancing his arm driving unaccompanied for decades.
    He was chancing his arm driving on motorways for decades.
    He was chancing his arm having a few (number unknown) pints and driving.
    He was chancing his arm not saying it to FF back in 2016 when he was caught.
    He was chancing his arm not mentioning the provisional licence when coming clean in the first instance.
    He was chancing his arm by not mentioning the checkpoint incident and is focusing on insisting that he wasn't charged with turning away from a checkpoint.

    The guy is a chancer and thinks he's smarter than everyone else. Ironically he's showing himself to be quite dim and can't see that the slow drip of his half truths is going to be his downfall.

    The cover up is often what sinks you, not the crime.

    Great post. The optics are absolutely terrible for FF no matter what happens. They've only been in power for a couple of weeks after a decade in the doldrums. And yet they are putting the same old faces in the public light and showing that absolutely nothing has changed since their disgrace in 2007-2011. Now Cowen is refusing to answer questions. They've learned nothing.


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    #1680
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    well then can you point to the offence in the statute book? it is available online so you should be able to link to it.

    I'm sure you've looked it up yourself
    I'm happy to link to Cowen stating that it is in his statement
    The language, the more I read it is very carefully worded
    I'd expect if he gets the record changed or its reported wrong,he is staying in his job until at least Dec 22


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    #1681
    dinneenp
    Registered Users Posts: 8,138 ✭✭✭dinneenp


    joeguevara wrote: »
    I am not sure but don't think there is such an offence. If they followed you and you failed to stop, that would be an offence, but there is no offence as alluded. Stupid though, I definitely agree.

    It's not an offence but doesn't look good. The garda may remember it but I don't know if it's something he/she would officially make a a record of as it's not an offence.

    If no record of it, Cowen can contest it but I'd take the word of the garda over him at this stage.


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