Barry Cowen sacked

McMurphy

eagle eye wrote: »

I think he shouldn't be just thrown in with the other three as if he was as bad as them.

That's like saying he's the only turd sandwich on the plate that hasn't got a stale crust.

Bannasidhe

joseywhales wrote: »

its never a case of all good or all bad. There was a lot of foreign direct investment, motorway infrastructure, participation in the peace process and the economic reality of the average irish person increased dramatically from the 80's up to the crisis.

That's not to say there weren't a bunch of self serving ministers in there during that time.

40 years of EU direct investment amounting to billions had more to do with motorway infrastructure than any Taoiseach.

joseywhales

Bannasidhe wrote: »

40 years of EU direct investment amounting to billions had more to do with motorway infrastructure than any Taoiseach.

Whomever it was, was responsible for the positives as much as the negatives. Someone had to advocate for that EU investment also.

Bannasidhe

joseywhales wrote: »

Whomever it was, was responsible for the positives as much as the negatives. Someone had to advocate for that EU investment also.

That EU investment was due to Ireland being at the urine poor end of the socio-economic scale so unless you think a constant cycle of overspending followed by austerity is 'advocating' by creating the conditions where we needed billions from the EU to build an infrastructure than no, no praise.

joseywhales

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That EU investment was due to Ireland being at the urine poor end of the socio-economic scale so unless you think a constant cycle of overspending followed by austerity is 'advocating' by creating the conditions where we needed billions from the EU to build an infrastructure than no, no praise.

A politicians job is to advocate for whom they represent. Do you think the EU forced us to take the investment?

Also the strategy to attract FDI via corp tax schemes, funding for third level education and research in technology and science, improvement of road infrastructure. This just happened by accident? Why do we have to be so polarizing, can we not just say that they were both good and bad?

BonnieSituation

joseywhales wrote: »

A politicians job is to advocate for whom they represent. Do you think the EU forced us to take the investment?

Also the strategy to attract FDI via corp tax schemes, funding for third level education and research in technology and science, improvement of road infrastructure. This just happened by accident? Why do we have to be so polarizing, can we not just say that they were both good and bad?

Why couldn't FF continued the sensible economic management that the Rainbow Coalition had from 94-97?

Anyway, we're way off topic here. Though it is worthy of a thread I think, given the amount of FFers who seemingly feel "hard done by" by their current situation.

bmc58

osarusan wrote: »

Would a TD not have some obligation to notify their party of this kind of thing?

Either way, unlikely that Micheal Martin really was unaware until now.

Surprised it was not news at the time anyway.

Someone with a score to settle with Cowan waited for their moment to pounce.Revenge is a dish best served cold.

joseywhales

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why couldn't FF continued the sensible economic management that the Rainbow Coalition had from 94-97?

Anyway, we're way off topic here. Though it is worthy of a thread I think, given the amount of FFers who seemingly feel hard done by by there current situation.

I honestly believe that leo was our best taoiseach in my lifetime(early 80s). Not everything has to got to fit into a political box

BonnieSituation

joseywhales wrote: »

I honestly believe that leo was our best taoiseach in my lifetime(early 80s). Not everything has to got to fit into a political box

Interesting.

I'd be plumping for Enda tbh. Well, technically Garrett and Lemass but I was way too young I guess to count them.

Have a soft spot for Albert too given his contribution to the peace process and the shafting of Haughey. Rainbow Coalition by far the best government we've ever had.

Bannasidhe

joseywhales wrote: »

A politicians job is to advocate for whom they represent. Do you think the EU forced us to take the investment?

I am discussing the motorway infrastructure not FDI (and our very attractive tax rates no indigenous business can hope to avail of) or the university sector (which is one it's knees by the way).

Ireland qualified for direct EU investment in infrastructure because our economy was bad, our infrastructure third world, and it looked like our main export was people.
Getting this investment was why Ireland joined the EU.
'Advocating' = making such a mess of things that we needed our neighbours to pay for our roads.

When it's up to 'our' leaders we end up with crap like this
€42m paid in 'compensation' 2010-2017

Figures provided by the Department of Transport show that since 2010, over €30m has been paid in compensation to the operator of the Limerick Tunnel and €12.2m to the operator of the M3 Clonee-Kells motorway.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20447473.html

2016

And the lucrative operating terms agreed by Government a decade ago means they can expect to still be raking the money in — and paying out salaries of €100,000 plus — in up to 30 years time.

Remarkably, the Public-Private Partnership deals even ensure that some toll roads receive guaranteed payments from state coffers if traffic falls below a certain level.

Last year the taxpayer paid €2,301,000 to EuroLink Motorway Operations (M3) Ltd to meet the shortfall on the Clonee/Kells stretch of the M3.

But its annual accounts show operating profits still totalled €19,810,000 — allowing dividends of €2million to be paid out to shareholders for a second successive year.

https://www.thesun.ie/archives/irish-news/124565/private-motorway-firms-made-e58-4m-last-year-and-you-paid-them-extra-if-traffic-was-low/

I see nothing worthy of praise here. I see Irish governments once again ensuring vast profits are made on the back of taxpayers.

Yurt2

BonnieSituation wrote: »

When you think that Lemass was an FFer, you have to remind yourself that there's no way he would be a member of this Fianna Fáil.

To drag this country out from under Dev and then hand it over to Lynch and the rest of the Gombeens that succeeded him does not mean we should still be grateful to this day to FF for the good done under Lemass. They squandered that goodwill.

This is very true. Somewhere along the line, FF went from being a political movement of consequence, to a vehicle for wide boys, carpetbaggers and bagmen.

You quite rightly identify Lynch as where the rot set in. If you look at some of the first-time TDs in Lynch's landslide '77 election, it's a rouges gallery of unscrupulous pups that would go on to destroy the party (Bertie, Pee Flynn, Liam Lawlor, Charlie McCreevy) and make it the natural home for sly yahoos.

Lynch and Martin have a lot in common, fundamentally nice guys from Cork but wouldn't recognize a snake if David Attenborough was his special advisor.

James Brown

Yurt! wrote: »

This is very true. Somewhere along the line, FF went from being a political movement of consequence, to a vehicle for wide boys, carpetbaggers and bagmen.

You quite rightly identify Lynch as where the rot set in. If you look at some of the first-time TDs in Lynch's landslide '77 election, it's a rouges gallery of unscrupulous pups that would go on to destroy the party (Bertie, Pee Flynn, Liam Lawlor, Charlie McCreevy) and make it the natural home for sly yahoos.

Lynch and Martin have a lot in common, fundamentally nice guys from Cork but wouldn't recognize a snake if David Attenborough was his special advisor.

DeValera was no angel. He defrauded Irish people around the world selling bogus Irish Press 'shares' under the guise of patriotism.

BonnieSituation

Bowie wrote: »

DeValera was no angel. He defrauded Irish people around the world selling bogus Irish Press 'shares' under the guise of patriotism.

Look at them as pre-Lemass and post-Lemass for simplicity.

NickNickleby

BonnieSituation wrote: »

When you think that Lemass was an FFer, you have to remind yourself that there's no way he would be a member of this Fianna Fáil.

To drag this country out from under Dev and then hand it over to Lynch and the rest of the Gombeens that succeeded him does not mean we should still be grateful to this day to FF for the good done under Lemass. They squandered that goodwill.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why couldn't FF continued the sensible economic management that the Rainbow Coalition had from 94-97?

Anyway, we're way off topic here. Though it is worthy of a thread I think, given the amount of FFers who seemingly feel "hard done by" by their current situation.

Yurt! wrote: »

This is very true. Somewhere along the line, FF went from being a political movement of consequence, to a vehicle for wide boys, carpetbaggers and bagmen.

You quite rightly identify Lynch as where the rot set in. If you look at some of the first-time TDs in Lynch's landslide '77 election, it's a rouges gallery of unscrupulous pups that would go on to destroy the party (Bertie, Pee Flynn, Liam Lawlor, Charlie McCreevy) and make it the natural home for sly yahoos.

Lynch and Martin have a lot in common, fundamentally nice guys from Cork but wouldn't recognize a snake if David Attenborough was his special advisor.

My parents went to England in the mid fifties because there was no work or houses here. They returned to a transformed Ireland in the mid 60's. They got a corporation house and work. This was ascribed to a modernising Ireland, and Lemass was the epitome of that.

My father-in-law always said that Fianna Fail was the only party that cared about the working man - and we laughed at him (this was in the eighties), but he wasn't for turning. And that's because HIS Fianna Fail probably was, in its day.

I believe Cowan epitomises the shyster/sleeveen politicians that aren't fit to clean Lemass' shoes. Maybe MM is going to start cleaning up FF and make them a viable option at election time.

Yurt2

NickNickleby wrote: »

My parents went to England in the mid fifties because there was no work or houses here. They returned to a transformed Ireland in the mid 60's. They got a corporation house and work. This was ascribed to a modernising Ireland, and Lemass was the epitome of that.

My father-in-law always said that Fianna Fail was the only party that cared about the working man - and we laughed at him (this was in the eighties), but he wasn't for turning. And that's because HIS Fianna Fail probably was, in its day.

I believe Cowan epitomises the shyster/sleeveen politicians that aren't fit to clean Lemass' shoes. Maybe MM is going to start cleaning up FF and make them a viable option at election time.

FF are just a hollowed out brand unfortunately. I'm not sure any of their TDs could give a coherent answer as to what the party is about. The persistence of dynasty politicians in their ranks is indicative of a party that either doesn't know, or care how to cultivate new leaders from broader society.

Their fate reminds me of the Indian National Congress; once a party of national liberation full of bright minds, now just full of sons of sons of a politician who once gave a flip decades ago.

People under 45 don't even realise that there was a time when the point of FF wasn't to get a sweet number and a pension.

Zebra3

NickNickleby wrote: »

Maybe MM is going to start cleaning up FF and make them a viable option at election time.

Even that might not be enough.

Absolute dearth of talent coming through.

I'd say trying to attract newbies at freshers' week that have no family ties to the party is a tough sell.

Young people who see themselves as having a global outlook wouldn't touch a brand tainted with bribery and corruption.

Imagine a young person in their late teens filling their social media up with FF stuff. They'd be laughed out of it by their peers.

NickNickleby

Zebra3 wrote: »

Even that might not be enough.

Absolute dearth of talent coming through.

I'd say trying to attract newbies at freshers' week that have no family ties to the party is a tough sell.

Young people who see themselves as having a global outlook wouldn't touch a brand tainted with bribery and corruption.

Imagine a young person in their late teens filling their social media up with FF stuff. They'd be laughed out of it by their peers.

yeah, you've got a point there and I've a real life example of this:

knew a young lad a few years ago that joined young Fianna Fail in college. I was surprised because he never struck me as particularly political. Afterwards someone said to me his ambition was about his own progression, not about what he could achieve for the nation. I was disappointed to hear that, but not surprised at his choice of party. So there you are, scepticism and naiivety rolled into one (me, I mean!).

joseywhales

NickNickleby wrote: »

yeah, you've got a point there and I've a real life example of this:

knew a young lad a few years ago that joined young Fianna Fail in college. I was surprised because he never struck me as particularly political. Afterwards someone said to me his ambition was about his own progression, not about what he could achieve for the nation. I was disappointed to hear that, but not surprised at his choice of party. So there you are, scepticism and naiivety rolled into one (me, I mean!).

In fairness, this is 80% of people and 99% of politicians.

walshb

joseywhales wrote: »

In fairness, this is 80% of people and 99% of politicians.

I disagree.

Politicians are primarily about working for others. They are servants..

Of course, some will look after themselves as well. That is in us all.

But the very nature of the position is to serve and better others..

It takes a lot courage to put your neck on the line like they do. A lot of courage. Being so visibly judged and criticised and ridiculed.. in this world today of non stop aggro and division and hostility and combatitiveness.

It is a ridiculously tough gig, and even tougher than years gone by. Because today you have every little scrote out to slate you and discredit you, because every scrote now has a voice...

Politicians get an awful hard time, but without them society you would not even exist like we know it..

People need to think of them as people. This is what hey are. Not objects to ridicule.

Muahahaha

Just reading in the Phoenix there that amongst FFers there is an atmosphere of 'let those without sin' doing the rounds and that FFers are widely circulating a 2004 invoice to Michael Martin for his two night stay in the Hotel de Bergues in Geneva at a cost of 3,800 euro to the taxpayer. He was Minister for Health at the time.

Its a nothing story really and the details were aired before anyway. Plus an invoice isnt going to change anything from way back in 2004 when we all knew they were partying.

But nonetheless its most enjoyable watching Fianna Fail eating themselves from the inside out.

joseywhales

I expect people to be selfish, I wouldn't advocate ridiculing them for it. I think the collective systems that we create should reduce the opportunity for selfishness to harm the collective good. That's just my personal view on people.

Zebra3

Muahahaha wrote: »

Just reading in the Phoenix there that amongst FFers there is an atmosphere of 'let those without sin' doing the rounds and that FFers are widely circulating a 2004 invoice to Michael Martin for his two night stay in the Hotel de Bergues in Geneva at a cost of 3,800 euro to the taxpayer. He was Minister for Health at the time.

Its a nothing story really and the details were aired before anyway. Plus an invoice isnt going to change anything from way back in 2004 when we all knew they were partying.

But nonetheless its most enjoyable watching Fianna Fail eating themselves from the inside out.

This is the FF Gold Standard though!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_O%27Donoghue_(politician)#Expenses_scandal

Snow Garden

eagle eye wrote: »

Fill us in on what Albert Reynolds did.

Dog food

Yurt2

walshb wrote: »

I disagree.

Politicians are primarily about working for others. They are servants..

Of course, some will look after themselves as well. That is in us all.

But the very nature of the position is to serve and better others..

It takes a lot courage to put your neck on the line like they do. A lot of courage. Being so visibly judged and criticised and ridiculed.. in this world today of non stop aggro and division and hostility and combatitiveness.

It is a ridiculously tough gig, and even tougher than years gone by. Because today you have every little scrote out to slate you and discredit you, because every scrote now has a voice...

Politicians get an awful hard time, but without them society you would not even exist like we know it..

People need to think of them as people. This is what hey are. Not objects to ridicule.

What guff is this?

In the democratic world, politicians have always been subject to scrutiny. You sound like you'd love somewhere like Singapore where polticians sue the bejaysus out of journalists or China where they skip the niceties and disappear you to jail.

There are red-lines to that scrutiny and a personal life and family life is generally off limits. Most people understand that. Cowan got behind the wheel on drink and tried to obfuscate the circumstances to his boss and the public when seeking high office, cry me river.

You want to big job with your name on the door and need the public's consent? Get used to having the rule ran over you.

NickNickleby

Snow Garden wrote: »

Dog food

:pac::pac:

in addition:
The issuing of passports was also a major issue when Albert Reynolds was taoiseach.

"In June 1994, with the strains already showing between Fianna Fáil and its Labour coalition partners, it emerged that the Reynolds family pet food firm had benefited from a £1 million investment made under the "passports for sale" scheme."
from https://www.irishtimes.com/news/passports-also-got-other-ff-leaders-into-trouble-1.889691

not sure if I've entered the link properly...
And this was when a million really was a MILLION.

walshb

Yurt! wrote: »

What guff is this?

In the democratic world, politicians have always been subject to scrutiny. You sound like you'd love somewhere like Singapore where polticians sue the bejaysus out of journalists or China where they skip the niceties and disappear you to jail.

There are red-lines to that scrutiny and a personal life and family life is generally off limits. Most people understand that. Cowan got behind the wheel on drink and tried to obfuscate the circumstances to his boss and the public when seeking high office, cry me river.

You want to big job with your name on the door and need the public's consent? Get used to having the rule ran over you.

What are you talking about?

I never said they should not be held to account or their decisions and actions not scrutinised..

Yurt2

walshb wrote: »

What are you talking about?

I never said they should not be held to account or their decisions and actions not scrutinised..

Merely implied it.

Bannasidhe

Personally I think every single candidate should be deep vetted before they run for election.

Not saying having a less than immaculate record should be a bar to seeking election, just that the info should be made public so the electorate knows who and what they are voting for before they vote.

No need for too many details - just the basics like oh, lets say
2014 Licence suspended for 3 months due to failing breathalyser test.
2011 sued for non payment of debts.
2013 VAT written off by revenue.
Named as dodgy in the following Tribunal reports...

That kind of thing. A dear voters - this is me warts and all, approach to treating the electorate like adults.

walshb

Yurt! wrote: »

Merely implied it.

I did not even imply it..

You are talking rubbish!

Brendan Bendar

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Personally I think every single candidate should be deep vetted before they run for election.

Not saying having a less than immaculate record should be a bar to seeking election, just that the info should be made public so the electorate knows who and what they are voting for before they vote.

No need for too many details - just the basics like oh, lets say
2014 Licence suspended for 3 months due to failing breathalyser test.
2011 sued for non payment of debts.
2013 VAT written off by revenue.
Named as dodgy in the following Tribunal reports...

That kind of thing. A dear voters - this is me warts and all, approach to treating the electorate like adults.

Would being in possession of explosives be included?

Doubt it, a chara.

Importing arms?

Nah.