If Ireland gets to keep the €13 billion Apple money tomorrow

sydthebeat

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Of course, sorry my mind is still having difficulty with reflexively associating 13 billion with losing.
.

it shouldnt

it was never going to be our money anyway, even the EU commision reflected that in their decision

this is a victory for ireland in that our laws are justified and ours to control

Wanderer78

people must like paying more taxes, if theyre not paying them, you are!

Snickers Man

Snickers Man wrote: »

Are we clear?

So we lost,..., did we loose?

sydthebeat

Wanderer78 wrote: »

people must like paying more taxes, if theyre not paying them, you are!

how simple a view....

apple paid their full 12.5% corporation tax as required.

When Ireland changed its tax laws in 2015, Apple made changes to its corporate structure to comply. Since then, all of Apple’s Irish operations have been conducted through Irish resident companies. Apple pays tax at Ireland’s statutory 12.5 percent.

https://www.apple.com/ie/newsroom/2017/11/the-facts-about-apple-tax-payments/

Snickers Man

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

So we lost,..., did we loose?

I refer you to the very lucid clarification made in this post by, er, yourself!

Wanderer78

sydthebeat wrote: »

how simple a view....

apple paid their full 12.5% corporation tax as required.



https://www.apple.com/ie/newsroom/2017/11/the-facts-about-apple-tax-payments/

its rare that mnc's pay the full 12.5%, its more commonly 10/11%, again, if theyre not paying it, you are

is_that_so

Not too surprised. It looked as it has done from the start like something of a vendetta against tech companies and God knows they've played fast and loose. Vindication for Apple and the government/Revenue. At the very least it might remind them of their tax obligations.

sydthebeat

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its rare that mnc's pay the full 12.5%, its more commonly 10/11%, again, if theyre not paying it, you are

no. they pay 12.5%

if they can make back legal allowances on it, so be it... same rule for all in ireland

which is EXACTLY what the court said today, that apple didnt get any sweetheart deal

Shefwedfan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its rare that mnc's pay the full 12.5%, its more commonly 10/11%, again, if theyre not paying it, you are

How much tax would you be paying if the MNC move out and the half the country is suddenly on the socail welfare?


The tax generated by these companies are the only reason Ireland is even anywhere close to recovered from the crash. Without them the place would be a ghost town


Its not just the people working for these companies, the farms supplying the canteens, the companies providing security and maintenance, gardeners etc


When Dell closed in Limerick it wasnt just the people in Dell who lost jobs, it was the entire community

Wanderer78

sydthebeat wrote: »

no. they pay 12.5%

if they can make back legal allowances on it, so be it... same rule for all in ireland

which is EXACTLY what the court said today, that apple didnt get any sweetheart deal

again, full 12.5 is rare, its generally 10/11. on another note, i worked for an mnc for a while, in its 40 years of operations here, it has never turned a profit, i ll let that sink in!

Wanderer78

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How much tax would you be paying if the MNC move out and the half the country is suddenly on the socail welfare?


The tax generated by these companies are the only reason Ireland is even anywhere close to recovered from the crash. Without them the place would be a ghost town


Its not just the people working for these companies, the farms supplying the canteens, the companies providing security and maintenance, gardeners etc


When Dell closed in Limerick it wasnt just the people in Dell who lost jobs, it was the entire community

who said anything about them moving out, maybe change the way we accept it, maybe partially in stocks and shares, baring in mind, sme's are the largest employer in the state

is_that_so

is_that_so wrote: »

Not too surprised. It looked as it has done from the start like something of a vendetta against tech companies and God knows they've played fast and loose. Vindication for Apple and the government/Revenue. At the very least it might remind them of their tax obligations.

Just to be clear here, this is like the Scissor Sisters walking free from court: ourselves and Apple, we're like Linda and Charlotte.

This is a legal vindication, and while it's probably even true to say that Ireland's 1991 Tax Ruling did not amount to state aid, we absolutely did conspire with MNCs to avail of a lacuna in US Tax Law where they were allowed to be tax-resident in no jurisdiction. We just didn't do it on a selective basis which would have amounted to state aid.

The law is on our side, but lets not start doing moral victory laps. We were letting large multinationals avoid their tax obligations for years.

sydthebeat

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, full 12.5 is rare, its generally 10/11. on another note, i worked for an mnc for a while, in its 40 years of operations here, it has never turned a profit, i ll let that sink in!

like i said, it may be able to claim back legal allowance, but so are all companies in ireland... the basic rate is paid... and allowances are claimed back.

whether that means they pay an effective rate of 10 / 11% or whatever is immaterial.... even the most basic individual in this country is allowed to do the same in their own tax circumstances.

Wanderer78

sydthebeat wrote: »

like i said, it may be able to claim back legal allowance, but so are all companies in ireland... the basic rate is paid... and allowances are claimed back.

whether that means they pay an effective rate of 10 / 11% or whatever is immaterial.... even the most basic individual in this country is allowed to do the same in their own tax circumstances.

again, since theyre not paying it, you are!

sydthebeat

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, since theyre not paying it, you are!

if you claim back tax on tuition fees then you dont pay it..... i do....
if I claim back tax on dental fees then I dont pay it..... you do....

same principle ..... only on a different level.....


are you saying apple should have some special tax arrangement where they cannot avail of legal allowances??

i wonder where that viewpoint would bring us.

Wanderer78

sydthebeat wrote: »

if you claim back tax on tuition fees then you dont pay it..... i do....
if I claim back tax on dental fees then I dont pay it..... you do....

same principle ..... only on a different level.....


are you saying apple should have some special tax arrangement where they cannot avail of legal allowances??

i wonder where that viewpoint would bring us.

taxation is deeply imbalanced, its now at dangerous levels, if we continue on this path, it will more than likely lead to further destabilization politically, economically, socially and environmentally. the more plutocratic elements in society are walking away with the spoils of your labour, and the risks and requirement of taxation is landing on your lap, this is unsustainable, tax harmonization is probably required in the eu at this stage

Keyzer

Not a penny of that money will go to Revenue - it will be given back to Apple in some shape or form.

Necro

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, since theyre not paying it, you are!

Mod:

I think you've made your point Wanderer.

sydthebeat

Wanderer78 wrote: »

taxation is deeply imbalanced, its now at dangerous levels, if we continue on this path, it will more than likely lead to further destabilization politically, economically, socially and environmentally. the more plutocratic elements in society are walking away with the spoils of your labour, and the risks and requirement of taxation is landing on your lap, this is unsustainable, tax harmonization is probably required in the eu at this stage

ah so you have an ideological issue with the tax policy.

Personally i prefer the overwhelmingly financially positive input MNCs offer to the irish economy yearly. One in seven irish workers work for a MNC

MNC generate an income in the irish economy similar to that €13 billion ruling... ANNUALLY

Be wary that the grass is always greener yada yada ......

Shefwedfan

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Just to be clear here, this is like the Scissor Sisters walking free from court: ourselves and Apple, we're like Linda and Charlotte.

This is a legal vindication, and while it's probably even true to say that Ireland's 1991 Tax Ruling did not amount to state aid, we absolutely did conspire with MNCs to avail of a lacuna in US Tax Law where they were allowed to be tax-resident in no jurisdiction. We just didn't do it on a selective basis which would have amounted to state aid.

The law is on our side, but lets not start doing moral victory laps. We were letting large multinationals avoid their tax obligations for years.

All that is wrong with Europe is they didn't get in front of us. Every other country would have done the exact same and provided to the US companies as well if it meant mass employment.



Europe trying to play the high and mighty card is a load of poo. They have the hump that number 1 Ireland has so many MNC installed and number 2 it is Ireland, how can they be beating the bigger boys!!

is_that_so

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Just to be clear here, this is like the Scissor Sisters walking free from court: ourselves and Apple, we're like Linda and Charlotte.

This is a legal vindication, and while it's probably even true to say that Ireland's 1991 Tax Ruling did not amount to state aid, we absolutely did conspire with MNCs to avail of a lacuna in US Tax Law where they were allowed to be tax-resident in no jurisdiction. We just didn't do it on a selective basis which would have amounted to state aid.

The law is on our side, but lets not start doing moral victory laps. We were letting large multinationals avoid their tax obligations for years.

Who's doing victory dances? We can't treat justice systems like episodic TV where your version of the good guys guys prevail. You have to prove your case. They didn't according to the court and it's over.

Wanderer78

sydthebeat wrote: »

ah so you have an ideological issue with the tax policy.

Personally i prefer the overwhelmingly financially positive input MNCs offer to the irish economy yearly. One in seven irish workers work for a MNC

MNC generate an income in the irish economy similar to that €13 billion ruling... ANNUALLY

Be wary that the grass is always greener yada yada ......

again, sme's are the largest employers in the state, which also pay taxes, and generally far more than mnc's

Shefwedfan

is_that_so wrote: »

Who's doing victory dances? We can't treat justice system like episodic TV where your version of the good guys guys prevail. You have to prove your case. They didn't according to the court and it's over.

ITs not, they can appeal to the highest court in Europe.....this could be floating around for another 2 years

Shefwedfan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, sme's are the largest employers in the state, which also pay taxes, and generally far more than mnc's

How many SME are supported in Ireland by the people working in MNC?


On average you could say everyone in a MNC is making let say 50k per year. Thats 50k which is pumped back into market in food/clothes/houses/cars/etc etc etc. This keeps a huge amount of SME going

Wanderer78

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How many SME are supported in Ireland by the people working in MNC?


On average you could say everyone in a MNC is making let say 50k per year. Thats 50k which is pumped back into market in food/clothes/houses/cars/etc etc etc. This keeps a huge amount of SME going

i.e. its a symbiotic relationship, but tax obligations dont reflect this

Duke of Url

Out of interest and it might have already be answered . who is paying the the costs incurred with holding the money in the escrow account?

I believe that it has cost millions.

is_that_so

Shefwedfan wrote: »

ITs not, they can appeal to the highest court in Europe.....this could be floating around for another 2 years

The judgement has been nullified and was deemed unproven. That would not bode well at all for an appeal. It's also not the first one they've lost on similar grounds. They'll move on to other targets.

is_that_so

Duke of Url wrote: »

Out of interest and it might have already be answered . who is paying the the costs incurred with holding the money in the escrow account?

I believe that it has cost millions.

Managed by the NTMA, they'll get their fees.

sydthebeat

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, sme's are the largest employers in the state, which also pay taxes, and generally far more than mnc's

is that creaking the sound of goal posts moving???

sme (of which i am one!) have some of the most wide ranging availability of tax reliefs in the country.

If they arent paying the tax, the consumer / worker is..... round and round we go.

ELM327

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its rare that mnc's pay the full 12.5%, its more commonly 10/11%, again, if theyre not paying it, you are

Better that than to lose the 500k jobs that are directly or indirectly related to FDI


Even if you (falsely) dont belioeve the indirect jobs are important, there are still 318k jobs directly from MNC/FDI.


https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-fdi/foreigndirectinvestmentinireland2017/ae/


Can you imagine the impact of losing 318k jobs on the tax take? Given the nature of the MNCs we get here (pharma, tech, finance) they are likely to be high paid too.

Wanderer78

sydthebeat wrote: »

is that creaking the sound of goal posts moving???

sme (of which i am one!) have some of the most wide ranging availability of tax reliefs in the country.

If they arent paying the tax, the consumer / worker is..... round and round we go.

exactly, when the system runs out of options, it defaults to where it can only go to, you!

Wanderer78

ELM327 wrote: »

Better that than to lose the 500k jobs that are directly or indirectly related to FDI


Even if you (falsely) dont belioeve the indirect jobs are important, there are still 318k jobs directly from MNC/FDI.


https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-fdi/foreigndirectinvestmentinireland2017/ae/


Can you imagine the impact of losing 318k jobs on the tax take? Given the nature of the MNCs we get here (pharma, tech, finance) they are likely to be high paid too.

whos talking about losing jobs!!! maybe change the way we accept some of this revenue!

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Europe trying to play the high and mighty card is a load of poo. They have the hump that number 1 Ireland has so many MNC installed and number 2 it is Ireland, how can they be beating the bigger boys!!

Just got a little sick in my mouth

ELM327

Wanderer78 wrote: »

whos talking about losing jobs!!! maybe change the way we accept some of this revenue!

The loss of jobs would be inevitable if we tried to keep this money that is not ours


Now the message to big MNCs is clear. Ireland's got your back. Now put your jobs here!!

Wanderer78

ELM327 wrote: »

The loss of jobs would be inevitable if we tried to keep this money that is not ours


Now the message to big MNCs is clear. Ireland's got your back. Now put your jobs here!!

and by the looks of things, if we keep playing this game, we will maintain our current path of further destabilization politically, economically, socially, environmentally etc etc etc, i.e. if you have kids or grandkids, maybe its a good idea to be more concerned for them!

Shefwedfan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

whos talking about losing jobs!!! maybe change the way we accept some of this revenue!

You hit the tax the companies will pull out.



Do you not understand?

Shefwedfan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

and by the looks of things, if we keep playing this game, we will maintain our current path of further destabilization politically, economically, socially, environmentally etc etc etc, i.e. if you have kids or grandkids, maybe its a good idea to be more concerned for them!

What are you talking about?


With the MNC in Ireland our children finally have the chance of getting jobs in Ireland. Not going to the US/UK and trying to get a job.


They move out and the country is back to send young people off everyewhere to get jobs

Wanderer78

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You hit the tax the companies will pull out.



Do you not understand?

whos hitting tax, again, maybe change the way we receive it, maintaining our current rate, baring in mind, a large proportion of wealth in mnc's is in their assets, stocks and shares etc. its also good to bare in mind, some of the main technologies being sold by companies such as apple, were originally invented and developed in publicly funded institutions, and id say the majority of their staff were publicly educated, do you think youre paying enough?

Wanderer78

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What are you talking about?


With the MNC in Ireland our children finally have the chance of getting jobs in Ireland. Not going to the US/UK and trying to get a job.


They move out and the country is back to send young people off everyewhere to get jobs

whos talking about them moving out!

Robert McGrath

According to Seamus Coffey, it’s the US Treasury that is the big winner here

Part of Trump’s tax bill a couple of years ago imposed a 15% tax on these profits outside the US.

If Apple have to pay 12.5% to Ireland, then the IRS would only get 2.5%.

If Apple don’t have to pay anything in Ireland or the rest of the EU, then the IRS gets to keep the lot.

Either way, Apple has to pay the tax. The only question is which country benefits

Shefwedfan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

whos hitting tax, again, maybe change the way we receive it, maintaining our current rate, baring in mind, a large proportion of wealth in mnc's is in their assets, stocks and shares etc. its also good to bare in mind, some of the main technologies being sold by companies such as apple, were originally invented and developed in publicly funded institutions, and id say the majority of their staff were publicly educated, do you think youre paying enough?

It seems you dont actually understand what the MNC do.


You do realize most if not all of them are currently funding education programs in Ireland?


They also fund events all over Ireland, local community events etc. As soon as Facebook started they set up a local fund which people in area can apply for grants.



All of this is done without asking them to. They have invested millions into the likes of UCD./Trinity etc. As far as I remember they got a huge super computer on the cheap years ago.



Dell run a programs for all education so they get cheap laptop/desktop etc.



Are you aware of any of this?

Duke of Url

is_that_so wrote: »

Managed by the NTMA, they'll get their fees.

As in they will get reimbursed in relation to the costs?

rob316

Brilliant. And you had these idiots SF, PBP saying we should of spent the money already.

Wanderer78

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It seems you dont actually understand what the MNC do.


You do realize most if not all of them are currently funding education programs in Ireland?


They also fund events all over Ireland, local community events etc. As soon as Facebook started they set up a local fund which people in area can apply for grants.



All of this is done without asking them to. They have invested millions into the likes of UCD./Trinity etc. As far as I remember they got a huge super computer on the cheap years ago.



Dell run a programs for all education so they get cheap laptop/desktop etc.



Are you aware of any of this?

yes, how much of your taxes heads into our educational system?

Shefwedfan

Robert McGrath wrote: »

According to Seamus Coffey, it’s the US Treasury that is the big winner here

Part of Trump’s tax bill a couple of years ago imposed a 15% tax on these profits outside the US.

If Apple have to pay 12.5% to Ireland, then the IRS would only get 2.5%.

If Apple don’t have to pay anything in Ireland or the rest of the EU, then the IRS gets to keep the lot.

Either way, Apple has to pay the tax. The only question is which country benefits

They don't have to send the money back to the US, they can just keep in Europe.

Shefwedfan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yes, how much of your taxes heads into our educational system?

:P:P:P

screamer

screamer wrote: »

We’ve already fecked them they’ll be paying off the bailout loans for generations. We shouldn’t thInk so short term and self interested. Life for future generations is gonna get tougher, not easier.

I won’t be here in future generations.

Necro

Mod:

There is a thread in Current Affairs discussing the court case:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058096273

As this thread has now become a duplication of this it is now closed.

Further discussion on the outcome of the case belongs in Current Affairs.