Yay!!!! Ireland wins appeal at Europe's General Court!!

James Brown

Geuze wrote: »

Does Apple software development occur in Canada?

The HQ is Cupertino.

No idea.

Apple has more than $215 billion in profits stashed offshore. Some of that money was made in Canada. The profits are in tax havens, mainly Ireland, which made a deal with Apple that resulted in tech giant paying an effective tax rate of less than 1 per cent a year for over a decade.
https://www.taxfairness.ca/en/news/canada-can-learn-eu’s-apple-tax-ruling

Mad_maxx

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Why is Bríd Smith still allowed air time?

Jesus she's unbearable.

She's an elected rep, she should of course warrant airtime but the hard left have always received vastly disproportionate media slots

Vincent Browne was more left than Brid Smith and had a show four night's per week for year's

BluePlanet

markodaly wrote: »

This, so this.

The biggest critics of this case are SF, who paint themselves as standing up for the Irish nation, yet would have fully jumped for joy if the ruling went the other way.

Think about that for a few minutes. A self-proclaimed nationalist party siding with an external 'foreign' force that would have harmed the economic sovereignty of the nation.

So it's Irish Law, that Apple's tax rate is 0.005% and you think that's just great?
WHO is harming our sovereignty and reputation?

uptherebels

Bowie wrote: »

No idea.

And yet the EU commission could provide no evidence of this "deal" in court!!!!!

ED E

Mad_maxx wrote: »

She's an elected rep, she should of course warrant airtime but the hard left have always received vastly disproportionate media slots

Vincent Browne was more left than Brid Smith and had a show four night's per week for year's

More left maybe, but also sane and rational not like that looper.

smurgen

Well the irony is the people who probably gave the idea that said aid was provided or preferential treatment was Apple themselves in 2013 in front of the Senate. After this testimony other multinationals such as Microsoft tidied up their testimony and avoided much of the scrutiny Apple drew upon themselves.

https://twitter.com/GeneKerrigan/status/1283362476629917696?s=19

Wanderer78

Geuze wrote:

They have made massive profits based on innovation (and maybe marketing).

Large corporations such as apple have in fact made a large proportion of their wealth, in some cases the majority, by financialising a proportion of their operations, hence why the majority of their manufacturing occurs in cheaper labour markets. They have also made use of a complex network of global tax havens, which includes ourselves, to avoid taxation globally, in order to maximise profits and ultimately share holder value. The increase in none productive activities such as share buy back schemes by many large corporations is another sign of the shift towards financialisation, ultimately to maximise share holder value, the only problem with that is, share ownership is heavily skewed globally. We ve managed to cod ourselves that such activities leads to a trickle down effect, again this is only partially true, but in many cases it's largely untrue, as it can and does lead to a trickle up effect, whereby we pick up the tab, particularly younger generations.

We cannot keep playing this game, Gini coefficients are on the rise globally, younger generations are gonna end up in serious trouble from these activities, we are destabilising some of our most critical of needs particularly economically, politically, socially and environmentally, ultimately it's the younger generations that will have to deal with the consequences of these actions, long after us older ones will be gone, if you have kids or grandkids or maybe even great grandkids, it's them that will pick up the ultimate tab from these activities. Change is needed urgently in these regards, and our political and economic institutions are defaulting to the norm, you're off springs future looks more uncertain.

markodaly wrote:

You will need to give me some proper citations for that I am afraid.

Joe Stiglitz has done some good work on this, showing that when private health insurance is intertwined with a public health care system, the outcome nearly always increases bureaucratic and administrative activities, and it's understandable why. Private health insurers ultimate goal is to maximise share holder value, but sometimes the best way to do that is to create resistance for citizens, particularly for public patience to get access to the system, in order to prioritise private customers. It could be argued that this is done intentionally, but I suspect it's not, it's simply just a byproduct of the beast. These outcomes could be classed as what Stiglitz calls 'inefficiencies of the market', but of course there are inefficiencies in the public sector also.

Deunionisation of the work place, particularly in the private sector has shown us leads to increased productivity but a decrease in wage inflation and overall increasing worker insecurities, the public sector knows this, hence their behaviour, always remembering, 'a force has an equal and opposite reaction'. I've only ever worked in the private sector, if you think the public sector is the only sector that has inefficiencies, think again, spend some time working in a factory, and you ll see some astonishing inefficiencies.

christy c

What a clown Gene Kerrigan is "against the interests of the Irish people".

Mortelaro

smurgen wrote: »

Well the irony is the people who probably gave the idea that said aid was provided or preferential treatment was Apple themselves in 2013 in front of the Senate. After this testimony other multinationals such as Microsoft tidied up their testimony and avoided much of the scrutiny Apple drew upon themselves.

https://twitter.com/GeneKerrigan/status/1283362476629917696?s=19

Doesn’t change the fact, the moneys not ours, never was and never will be

smurgen

Mortelaro wrote: »

Doesn’t change the fact, the moneys not ours, never was and never will be

Never said it was?chill out Tim Apple.

JohnnyFlash

christy c wrote: »

What a clown Gene Kerrigan is "against the interests of the Irish people".

Imagine being Gene Kerrigan’s age and still believing in Marxism-Leninism?

markodaly

BluePlanet wrote: »

So it's Irish Law, that Apple's tax rate is 0.005% and you think that's just great?
WHO is harming our sovereignty and reputation?

SF are unhappy that the state won an important legal challenge to our economic sovereignty.

christy c

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Imagine being Gene Kerrigan’s age and still believing in Marxism-Leninism?

I think most people are aware of how out of touch people like Gene Kerrigan, Mary Lou Mcdonald, RBB, etc. are, but you get moments like this every so often which just remove any doubt whatsoever.

markodaly

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Joe Stiglitz has done some good work on this, showing that when private health insurance is intertwined with a public health care system, the outcome nearly always increases bureaucratic and administrative activities, and it's understandable why.

Again, I am going to need some actual citations here, not 'some author told me so'

And when do you fetch them, bear in mind that countries like Holland, Germany, Australia, New Zeland, Canada, Switzerland just to name a few, have a mix of public and private insurance offerings.

What often happens in these arguments is that one looks at the complicated and expensive state of the US Health market and then make a glib determination that this is the only example worth considering, when there are numerous other successful examples available that offer very good outcomes for everyone.

Wanderer78

markodaly wrote: »

Again, I am going to need some actual citations here, not 'some author told me so'

And when do you fetch them, bear in mind that countries like Holland, Germany, Australia, New Zeland, Canada, Switzerland just to name a few, have a mix of public and private insurance offerings.

What often happens in these arguments is that one looks at the complicated and expensive state of the US Health market and then make a glib determination that this is the only example worth considering, when there are numerous other successful examples available that offer very good outcomes for everyone.

best i can do, im too busy to do your research for you, stiglitz has looked at other health care systems globally, finding the same or similar outcomes. health care systems are highly complex beasts, theres no clear perfect example globally, all systems have problems, with inefficiencies in both the public and private entities, a perfectly efficient system is probably not possible. you can see what many commemorators are currently saying about the issues with our health care systems, and modern thinking regarding efficiency etc, we have brought modern thinking of maximizing efficiency and productivity, and when this virus came along, most of us didnt have the capacity to deal with this some what unexpected visitor. its one of the main reasons why constructs such as the 'efficient market hypothesis' largely completely fails in these circumstances, we need to find ways of balancing both public and private sectors interests, not an easy task though.

https://www8.gsb.columbia.edu/faculty/jstiglitz/

https://twitter.com/JosephEStiglitz?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Geuze

BluePlanet wrote: »

So it's Irish Law, that Apple's tax rate is 0.005% and you think that's just great?
WHO is harming our sovereignty and reputation?

Let us be clear, there is no such CT rate.

The main CT rate in Ireland is 12.5%.

ASI paid 12.5% CT on the profits of its Irish branch.

stoneill

christy c wrote: »

No they haven't.

Yes they have, paying 1% tax since 2006?
It might have passed the tax laws in Ireland, but such a low rate of tax for so many years is fraud.

christy c

stoneill wrote: »

Yes they have, paying 1% tax since 2006?
It might have passed the tax laws in Ireland, but such a low rate of tax for so many years is fraud.

What's your definition of fraud?

smurgen

Well Ireland needs to be careful. The net is closing in. What's happened here is the U.S taxman has gained and so has Apple. The loser really is the U.S taxpayer as the lost out on historical CT rates due to the onshoring of the profits at the now lower rate.
Ireland needs to start growing it's own indigenous businesses quickly. As the likes of BEPs OECD etc go for tax harmonisation we will need to wean ourselves off corporate tax receipts. However we could offset this by fostering our own.

Wanderer78

smurgen wrote: »

Well Ireland needs to be careful. The net is closing in. What's happened here is the U.S taxman has gained and so has Apple. The loser really is the U.S taxpayer as the lost out on historical CT rates due to the onshoring of the profits at the now lower rate.
Ireland needs to start growing it's own indigenous businesses quickly. As the likes of BEPs OECD etc go for tax harmonisation we will need to wean ourselves off corporate tax receipts. However we could offset this by fostering our own.

or we could try gain access to more of the wealth created from the activities of such corporations active here

smurgen

Wanderer78 wrote: »

or we could try gain access to more of the wealth created from the activities of such corporations active here

That too but I thing we should also ring fence some of the current CT windfalls for Enterprise Ireland & IBEC.

Wanderer78

smurgen wrote:

That too but I thing we should also ring fence some of the current CT windfalls for Enterprise Ireland & IBEC.

Absolutely, and give Sme's the same level of protectionism as other sectors such as mnc's

markodaly

smurgen wrote: »

Well Ireland needs to be careful. The net is closing in. What's happened here is the U.S taxman has gained and so has Apple. The loser really is the U.S taxpayer as the lost out on historical CT rates due to the onshoring of the profits at the now lower rate.
Ireland needs to start growing it's own indigenous businesses quickly. As the likes of BEPs OECD etc go for tax harmonisation we will need to wean ourselves off corporate tax receipts. However we could offset this by fostering our own.

Well, we could just nationalise them, ala Dell or some other such pie in the sky proposals.

Companies, like Apple and Facebook are truly unique beasts in the world, they cannot be just replaced with an Irish equivalent.
Trying to support Irish indigenous business, Good.
Pretending we can just grow our own Apple and Facebook? Nonsenical.

markodaly

Wanderer78 wrote: »

a perfectly efficient system is probably not possible.

I would somewhat agree there, and that is why it has been shown a hybrid model of both public and private are often the best with the best outcomes.

smurgen

markodaly wrote: »

Well, we could just nationalise them, ala Dell or some other such pie in the sky proposals.

Companies, like Apple and Facebook are truly unique beasts in the world, they cannot be just replaced with an Irish equivalent.
Trying to support Irish indigenous business, Good.
Pretending we can just grow our own Apple and Facebook? Nonsenical.

What are you talking about at all? Are you inventing conversations with yourself? Irish talent cannot create i.t companies is it? You might want to tell that to John and Patrick Collison.
Your argument is so bad I don't know where to start really. One of the worst posts I've seen on boards in a very long time. It's like something the tin foil hat brigade would type.

walshb

smurgen wrote: »

What are you talking about at all? Are you inventing conversations with yourself? Irish talent cannot create i.t companies is it? You might want to tell that to John and Patrick Collison.
Your argument is so bad I don't know where to start really. One of the worst posts I've seen on boards in a very long time. It's like something the tin foil hat brigade would type.

You are not even reading what the poster posted...

Read again what the poster said....

markodaly

smurgen wrote: »

What are you talking about at all? Are you inventing conversations with yourself? Irish talent cannot create i.t companies is it? You might want to tell that to John and Patrick Collison.
Your argument is so bad I don't know where to start really. One of the worst posts I've seen on boards in a very long time. It's like something the tin foil hat brigade would type.

Again, read what I said, not what you think I said

smurgen

markodaly wrote: »

Again, read what I said, not what you think I said

Still don't get it. I never said anything about growing our own Facebook/Apple. I said we need to create conditions that will help Irish entrepreneurs create their own companies.

liamog

smurgen wrote: »

Still don't get it. I never said anything about growing our own Facebook/Apple. I said we need to create conditions that will help Irish entrepreneurs create their own companies.

Intercom and Stripe are two Irish Tech Unicorns (predominantly software-focussed startups valued at over $1 billion)

James Brown

uptherebels wrote: »

And yet the EU commission could provide no evidence of this "deal" in court!!!!!

The deal is there that wasn't the point of the case, it was whether it was a sweet deal or not.