Yay!!!! Ireland wins appeal at Europe's General Court!!

James Brown

liamog wrote: »

Intercom and Stripe are two Irish Tech Unicorns (predominantly software-focussed startups valued at over $1 billion)

As are Facebook and Google for where ever it is they are claiming residency this week.
We weren't too pleased with our lads residing their funds off shore.

We need to build up industry not dependent of tax gimmicks and loop holes which are changing all the time. The day may come when those availing of such things leave.

walshb

smurgen wrote: »

Still don't get it. I never said anything about growing our own Facebook/Apple. I said we need to create conditions that will help Irish entrepreneurs create their own companies.

Yes, but they won't come anywhere remotely close to the revenue generating power of the companies that the poster mentioned. That was more his point.

Corporation Tax, albeit quite low, still brings us in billions per year. Our CT rate is the attraction, and long may it remain so; though there will be an overhaul....

The taxes we get from these big monster companies is so very important to uur finances

I just don't see us growing anywhere near enough Irish companies that will come close to the monies that the monsters give us.

BTW, the likes of Stripe, are they tax resident here I wonder? For CT I mean?

HQ is in the United States, no?

Shefwedfan

It is funny the people that are commenting on this seem to not even work in the IT industry or have any idea what is going on.

You have start up all over Ireland in IT. You have pop up meetings which happen I think all over Ireland but I know precovid they where regular in the Dublin city centre area. This was a chance for people to meet up and discuss how to bring project forward.

You have NDRC to help companies.
https://www.ndrc.ie/

Enterprise Ireland invest in start up.

It was interesting that over the year Jamie Heaslip was involved in these, he was investing with others into young Irish people/companies that would grow and then he would sell on. More or less silent partner. One company was the energy one who would sell a managed service for bulbs :-) bright idea


What people fail to appreciate is to get froma startup to a billion doller valued company is very rare. What typically happens is if someone comes up with a really good idea or a good software product they get bought out by the bigger IT companies. Plenty of Irish software companies have been taken over by the MNC(Curam springs to mind) They buy the solution and suddenly that software is been rolled out WW. This happens all over the World mind you, not just Ireland.

I know years ago at the start of public cloud, two guys build a cloud company in Ireland, as far as I remember boards used them. They build it up from nothing, then....one of the big boys just came in, handed them millions or billions I dont know and took over it.

smurgen

walshb wrote: »

Yes, but they won't come anywhere remotely close to the revenue generating power of the companies that the poster mentioned. That was more his point.

Corporation Tax, albeit quite low, still brings us in billions per year. Our CT rate is the attraction, and long may it remain so; though there will be an overhaul....

The taxes we get from these big monster companies is so very important to uur finances

I just don't see us growing anywhere near enough Irish companies that will come close to the monies that the monsters give us.

BTW, the likes of Stripe, are they tax resident here I wonder? For CT I mean?

HQ is in the United States, no?

It's not all or nothing. We won't have businesses as big as their's so we shouldn't try? What's the logic there. There's lots of markets. There's markets not even in existence now to that will appear, these are there for the taking and we need to develop the mindset that we can produce and innovative as good as anyone.

James Brown

smurgen wrote: »

It's not all or nothing. We won't have businesses as big as their's so we shouldn't try? What's the logic there. There's lots of markets. There's markets not even in existence now to that will appear, these are there for the taking and we need to develop the mindset that we can produce and innovative as good as anyone.

Yes, there was some argument for that type of thinking before the digital age. We have more options as the model and finances required have changed.

smurgen

walshb wrote: »

Yes, but they won't come anywhere remotely close to the revenue generating power of the companies that the poster mentioned. That was more his point.

Corporation Tax, albeit quite low, still brings us in billions per year. Our CT rate is the attraction, and long may it remain so; though there will be an overhaul....

The taxes we get from these big monster companies is so very important to uur finances

I just don't see us growing anywhere near enough Irish companies that will come close to the monies that the monsters give us.

BTW, the likes of Stripe, are they tax resident here I wonder? For CT I mean?

HQ is in the United States, no?

No idea. I wondered how they even finally wound up with a US HQ but I think it's a result how the capital arrived.

i_surge

smurgen wrote: »

It's not all or nothing. We won't have businesses as big as their's so we shouldn't try? What's the logic there. There's lots of markets. There's markets not even in existence now to that will appear, these are there for the taking and we need to develop the mindset that we can produce as better as anyone.

Exactly, here is some very limited thinking in this thread.

People seem to be making the mistake that because Apple is a mega profitable company that the relative pittance we get from them is too be clung onto for dear life at the cost of our integrity. We must protect our image as a bit of a soft touch is a weak position to be in.

We can lower the cost basis and we can generate our own revenue to reach the same ends readily.

The same people forget that driving 2 hours each way to sit in an office pushing paper and playing politics to pay for for an overpriced house and for someone else to mind your kids is completely detached from normal life. We have boxed ourselves into a high cost threadmill.

There are ample opportunities to recalibrate these things with post covid wfh decentralisation plus building enough houses to balance supply against demand eventually.

How many billions does this golden cow provide the exchequer anyway, aside from the 13B and how much of their revenue is reasonable generated from activities here?

Shefwedfan

i_surge wrote: »

Exactly, here is some very limited thinking in this thread.

People seem to be making the mistake that because Apple is a mega profitable company that the relative pittance we get from them is too be clung onto for dear life at the cost of our integrity. We must protect our image as a bit of a soft touch is a weak position to be in.

We can lower the cost basis and we can generate our own revenue to reach the same ends readily.

The same people forget that driving 2 hours each way to sit in an office pushing paper and playing politics to pay for for an overpriced house and for someone else to mind your kids is completely detached from normal life. We have boxed ourselves into a high cost threadmill.

There are ample opportunities to recalibrate these things with post covid wfh decentralisation plus building enough houses to balance supply against demand eventually.

How many billions does this golden cow provide the exchequer anyway, aside from the 13B and how much of their revenue is reasonable generated from activities here?

Posted a few pages back



Ireland's rejection of the EU Commission's "windfall" in back-taxes surprised some.However, in § Understanding Irish decision, US-controlled multinationals are 25 of Ireland's top 50 companies; pay over 80% of all Irish corporate taxes (circa €8 billion per annum); directly employ 10 percent of the Irish labour force which rises to 23 percent when public sector, agri and finance jobs are excluded (and indirectly pay half of all Irish salary taxes); and are 57 percent of all non-farm OECD value-add in the Irish economy. In June 2018, the American–Ireland Chamber of Commerce estimated the value of US investment in Ireland was €334 billion, exceeding Irish GDP (€291 billion in 2016). In contrast, there are no non–US/non–UK foreign multinationals in Ireland's top 50 firms.

i_surge

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Posted a few pages back



Ireland's rejection of the EU Commission's "windfall" in back-taxes surprised some.However, in § Understanding Irish decision, US-controlled multinationals are 25 of Ireland's top 50 companies; pay over 80% of all Irish corporate taxes (circa €8 billion per annum); directly employ 10 percent of the Irish labour force which rises to 23 percent when public sector, agri and finance jobs are excluded (and indirectly pay half of all Irish salary taxes); and are 57 percent of all non-farm OECD value-add in the Irish economy. In June 2018, the American–Ireland Chamber of Commerce estimated the value of US investment in Ireland was €334 billion, exceeding Irish GDP (€291 billion in 2016). In contrast, there are no non–US/non–UK foreign multinationals in Ireland's top 50 firms.

There are two sides to a balance sheet.

That just shows us how weak our hand really is.

i_surge

i_surge wrote: »

There are two sides to a balance sheet.

That just shows us how weak our hand really is.

It shows how much we need these multinationals. Too much to cut off our noses to spite our faces.

i_surge

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It shows how much we need these multinationals. Too much to cut off our noses to spite our faces.

Too much to not be working on plan B you mean

i_surge

i_surge wrote: »

Too much to not be working on plan B you mean

What is plan B?

liamog

Bowie wrote: »

As are Facebook and Google for where ever it is they are claiming residency this week.
We weren't too pleased with our lads residing their funds off shore.

We need to build up industry not dependent of tax gimmicks and loop holes which are changing all the time. The day may come when those availing of such things leave.

1. Argue that we should build up Irish companies
2. Is confronted with two highly valued Irish tech companies
3. Complains about non Irish companies

Did I get that right?

paul71

Deleted User wrote: »

What is plan B?

Plan B, I heard was increasing the tax on Oil extraction from our massive oilfields. (You know the ones that have never yielded a single commercial barrel of oil during peak oil price).

Shefwedfan

paul71 wrote: »

Plan B, I heard was increasing the tax on Oil extraction from our massive oilfields. (You know the ones that have never yielded a single commercial barrel of oil during peak oil price).

I thought we had a big oilfield up Leitrim direction?

James Brown

liamog wrote: »

1. Argue that we should build up Irish companies
2. Is confronted with two highly valued Irish tech companies
3. Complains about non Irish companies

Did I get that right?

No, you did not.

carveone

i_surge wrote: »

Too much to not be working on plan B you mean

Indeed. I believe that the Covid-19 thing has shown some of the big companies (google, facebook, twitter etc) that working from home is not just a possibility but a reasonable default for many of their employees. Some of you may have seen the news that Fujitsu in Japan has outlined plans to make this permanent for thousands of their employees.

Except I wonder how long it will take them to start closing offices. And then figuring out that all these home workers can be anywhere, like a cheap-wage country. And then relocating "head office" to an island where employee rights don't exist and relocating all the expensive employees to the dole queue.

Wanderer78

carveone wrote: »

Indeed. I believe that the Covid-19 thing has shown some of the big companies (google, facebook, twitter etc) that working from home is not just a possibility but a reasonable default for many of their employees. Some of you may have seen the news that Fujitsu in Japan has outlined plans to make this permanent for thousands of their employees.

Except I wonder how long it will take them to start closing offices. And then figuring out that all these home workers can be anywhere, like a cheap-wage country. And then relocating "head office" to an island where employee rights don't exist and relocating all the expensive employees to the dole queue.

since wealth trickles down, theres no need to be worrying about this

carveone

Wanderer78 wrote: »

since wealth trickles down, theres no need to be worrying about this

Of course, silly me

micosoft

i_surge wrote: »

There are two sides to a balance sheet.

That just shows us how weak our hand really is.

We now have a "weak" hand that makes us the 6th richest country on the planet out of 195?

Despite the hand we were dealt being a country with not much in the way of resources, no oil or negligible gas, isolated off the west coast of the European peninsula, and an agrarian economy non-industrial economy left by a former coloniser. Literally all we have is our people.

What exactly does a strong hand look like to you?

Shefwedfan

micosoft wrote: »

We now have a "weak" hand that makes us the 6th richest country on the planet out of 195?

Despite the hand we were dealt being a country with not much in the way of resources, no oil or negligible gas, isolated off the west coast of the European peninsula, and an agrarian economy non-industrial economy left by a former coloniser. Literally all we have is our people.

What exactly does a strong hand look like to you?

Everyone on social welfare, children leaving Ireland for jobs, sf in power

Some people won’t be happy till all of the above is done

ExMachina1000

micosoft wrote: »

We now have a "weak" hand that makes us the 6th richest country on the planet out of 195?

Despite the hand we were dealt being a country with not much in the way of resources, no oil or negligible gas, isolated off the west coast of the European peninsula, and an agrarian economy non-industrial economy left by a former coloniser. Literally all we have is our people.

What exactly does a strong hand look like to you?

Ireland was known as the poor man of Europe before multinationals set up shop here. Ireland will again become known as the poor man of Europe when they leave again.
Like you stated. We have nothing else

Shefwedfan

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Ireland was known as the poor man of Europe before multinationals set up shop here. Ireland will again become known as the poor man of Europe when they leave again.
Like you stated. We have nothing else

That not 100% true, we have SF and the magically billions they seem to be able to find.....

James Brown

I see MM has issue with the proposed digital tax.

The net is closing on dem dat don't like to pay tax.

Shefwedfan

Bowie wrote: »

I see MM has issue with the proposed digital tax.

The net is closing on dem dat don't like to pay tax.

Good man MM


Stick with US and Trump!!! right stance to take.....Europe can't really agree anythign when the US tell them to pee off :p:p:p:p:p:p:p

Bit cynical

carveone wrote: »

Except I wonder how long it will take them to start closing offices. And then figuring out that all these home workers can be anywhere, like a cheap-wage country. And then relocating "head office" to an island where employee rights don't exist and relocating all the expensive employees to the dole queue.

I would see companies based in, for example, Dublin continuing to be based in Dublin for tax reasons, but many of these have 80% foreign staff. I'm sure many of these staff are wondering why they are working from home in Dublin flats paying extortionate rents when they could be back in Latvia.

But yes one of the reasons Dublin is attractive apart from tax is that it can attract the best from around the EU with very little paperwork. That reason is gone if everyone can work from home from whatever country.

is_that_so

The EU has lost another tax claim, this time against Amazon. It probably does not bode well for their Apple claim.

Amazon has won a court battle against the EU over allegations that the US technology company received €250m in “illegal state aid” tax benefits from Luxembourg.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/may/12/amazon-wins-appeal-over-250m-eu-tax-bill