Yay!!!! Ireland wins appeal at Europe's General Court!!

Shelga

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Our tax regime is structured to attract multinationals - who employ a lot of people here. There are thousands of jobs in Ireland as a direct result of these incentives.

You may have a point around the morals of how/where these companies are taxed but you also have to acknowledge that if we somehow wanted to punish the apes of this world by changing our tax regime then we are putting a lot of jobs at risk.

It would be no comfort to me that the US got 40bn extra in taxes if the result is a higher unemployment

Totally agree. I'm not going to put my money where my mouth is and sacrifice Irish jobs on the altar of idealism. Hence why I think Sinn Fein should think very carefully before they issue a public statement on this.

But it just brings into focus again, just how much money international companies avoid paying in tax. Trillions, no doubt. I think this judgement should at least prompt a discussion on how to clamp down on tax havens. Even as I type this I realise how unrealistic it probably is, but here's an interesting article nonetheless, that explores the possibility of unitary tax regimes: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/10/multinationals-billions-tax/

Proper taxation undoubtedly becomes trickier in a global economy, but are we just going to facilitate the ballooning profits of the likes of Apple and Facebook forever and ever, while wealth disparity around the world continues to grow at a sickening rate?

Cordell

but are we just going to facilitate the ballooning profits of the likes of Apple and Facebook forever and ever, while wealth disparity around the world continues to grow at a sickening rate?

Taxing them will not fix anything.
But, allowing R&D tax grants will bring more highly paid jobs in Ireland, which in turn will bring more income tax and spending and drive the general economy. Also, those moneys are a foreign influx into Irish economy so that's another win.

Or we could tax the hell out of them so we don't compete with France and Germany, I'm sure that will fix the world.

d15ude

gailforecast wrote: »

The court has ruled that they did pay their fair share.

Yes, it has.

But it's almost certain that the case will now move on to the European Court of Justice.

riffmongous

Eric Cartman wrote: »

we were either going to keep 2 billion of it (thats 1 months welfare bill) and have our entire FDI pool looking elsewhere or we could send it back and prove that we're the greatest little island to do business.

this helps us in many more magnitudes than making apple pay ever would have

They could look elsewhere but would they realistically go anywhere else if they'd lost? Any changes or new laws would be across the EU so no better deals could be found that Ireland couldn't also offer

hmmm

riffmongous wrote: »

They could look elsewhere but would they realistically go anywhere else if they'd lost? Any changes or new laws would be across the EU so no better deals could be found that Ireland couldn't also offer

Every country has advantages which it will try and exploit, there will never be a complete level playing field. Countries like Germany and France have a geographic advantage we don't have, and also population size advantages and advanced universities. We have an English speaking population which is useful, but after that we've had to make our own advantages - lots of investment in education and a lower tax rate primarily.

James Brown

Secures Ireland's reputation as a corporate tax haven and sticks two fingers up at the EU. All nice and legal like.

FF/FG would be well advised not to wallow in this 'victory'.

walshb

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

we were never going to keep it anyway, if Ireland/Apple had have lost the money would have had to go to other EU Countries too.

The level of ignorance around all of this is staggering.

the "make apple pay for it" brigade will need another cause now

Absolutely

This is a tremendous victory for our country.

We were accused of wrongdoing. Our people were accused of wrongdoing, and we ALL should have stood together here on the one side, united....but no, that is not how we operate......

is_that_so

Bowie wrote: »

Secures Ireland's reputation as a corporate tax haven and sticks two fingers up at the EU. All nice and legal like.

FF/FG would be well advised not to wallow in this 'victory'.

The court said the tax claim was unproven. The EU commission have already lost on Starbucks case as well. They can do anti-trust very well but taxation is dipping into country competencies and likely to bring them out fighting.

walshb

murpho999 wrote: »

Good ruling for Ireland and actually protects Irish economy and jobs. How come so many people don't see this?

Because they are thick? Or else don't want to see it and don't want to try and understand it.........

FintanMcluskey

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Amazing how many ordinary people celebrate corporate tax evasion as a good thing. Just goes to show what a good brainwashing can do.

They have been fully compliant with Irish tax regulations.

I think lots of people have strong opinions on something they have no understanding of, and make sure others are aware of those ill informed views.

This is a huge win for Ireland and educated people employed by foreign investment in Ireland

James Brown

markodaly wrote: »

Because they are idiots and economic illiterates in the same vein as Trump and his 'Build a wall' followers.

The electorate eh? When will they learn to stop complaining?

facehugger99

murpho999 wrote: »

They have just ruled that Ireland did not give Apple special treatment.

It means that Ireland also retains its right to set its own corporate tax rates.

Those rates have led to companies investing in Ireland. Ireland is competing with other countries for this investment.


Can you imagine what our economy would be like without them?

I'm presuming it would be some sort of socialist utopia with bountiful money-tree harvests every year, probably led by a Government of Marxists with their own private army.

Mortelaro

Bowie wrote: »

The electorate eh? When will they learn to stop complaining?

When idiocy like that the money was ours isnt drummed into them by SF and PBP etc

YellowBucket

The accusation was that the Irish Government or Revenue concluded deals with Apple that weren’t available to other companies and that were in breech of competition law.

The fact that the tax rate may be too low or that people may find it morally reprehensible not to tax those companies more isn’t really the point that the Commission used in its ruling. It went after a stretch of competition law.

They levied a charge that the Irish tax system was corrupt and doing side deals and failed to produce evidence to prove this.

From an Irish perspective, losing this would have looked terrible, undermined our credibility and also damaged inward investment as it sought to apply very significant taxes retrospectively.

If we don’t agree with the 12.5%, that’s a political matter. It’s something we could change but it’s not anything illegal or corrupt.

To change European law on this requires a negotiated, agreed treaty change. From what I can see this was a blatantly political move aimed to stretch the competition law into something that would force corporation tax harmonisation. That’s isn’t the appropriate way of achieving that objective and the courts would seem to have taken that view too.

Whether or not anyone agrees or disagrees with the 12.5% is parallel issue and this just wasn’t how it should have been moved forward on.

Shefwedfan

murpho999 wrote: »

Good ruling for Ireland and actually protects Irish economy and jobs. How come so many people don't see this?

The people that complain about this are the ones that dont have a job in aMNC and usual don't have a job at all


They think if 13 billions get given to Ireland their social cheque will increase

Shefwedfan

Bowie wrote: »

The electorate eh? When will they learn to stop complaining?

They should at least learn the basic before shouting and roaring about it


Having a leader of a political party been so stupid she doesnt understand was a low point for the education system in the whole of Ireland

splinter65

murpho999 wrote: »

Good ruling for Ireland and actually protects Irish economy and jobs. How come so many people don't see this?

SF/PBP/Peoples Front of Judea/Judean Peoples Front type activists told all their followers that this 13 billion was going to solve all our problems and was a bottomless pit really. And they believed it too.

The Rooster

Shelga wrote: »

Totally agree. I'm not going to put my money where my mouth is and sacrifice Irish jobs on the altar of idealism. Hence why I think Sinn Fein should think very carefully before they issue a public statement on this.

But it just brings into focus again, just how much money international companies avoid paying in tax. Trillions, no doubt. I think this judgement should at least prompt a discussion on how to clamp down on tax havens. Even as I type this I realise how unrealistic it probably is, but here's an interesting article nonetheless, that explores the possibility of unitary tax regimes: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/10/multinationals-billions-tax/

Proper taxation undoubtedly becomes trickier in a global economy, but are we just going to facilitate the ballooning profits of the likes of Apple and Facebook forever and ever, while wealth disparity around the world continues to grow at a sickening rate?

Tax rules around the world, including Ireland, have been completely changed in the last 5 years! Led by the OECD there have been fundamental changes which will prevent companies parking profits in havens (among other things).

This is an old case. It wasn't Irish tax avoidance - Apple always paid 12.5% tax on their Irish profits. It was a US issue which allowed US companies park profits in havens. The US knew about this and could have done away with it years and years ago, but we all know how much influence large corporates have in the US.

Could Ireland have stopped it earlier? Probably, but why when we were getting our correct fair share and the US IRS knew exactly what was going on? - it was not our job to police how much tax a US company paid in the US.

Also, which is never really mentioned, it was only a tax deferral Apple were availing of by parking their superprofits in a haven. Any money they send back to the US (for example to pay dividends to their shareholders) is subject to US tax at the full rate less any foreign tax already paid.

In this case the Commission thought the profits belonged to Ireland rather than the Haven. Because Apple were shoddy in how they implemented their structure they did leave it open to interpretation, and left a crack in the door which the Commission gleefully barged through. But not enough to prove their case.

Apple, Facebook and pretty much all the other tech and pharma giants which previously used havens to house their IP have now moved all their IP out - many to Ireland, but also many to US, Switzerland, UK etc also. By the end of this year, you will only be permitted to have profits in havens if you have people working there and you can support the profit levels based on substance - so most are out already.

ArchXStanton

Laois_Man wrote: »

Nation states are governed by their respective supreme courts ultimately.

Certainly not by the European Commission

EU law takes precedence over national law as far as I'm aware

James Brown

Mortelaro wrote: »

When idiocy like that the money was ours isnt drummed into them by SF and PBP etc

...and not forgetting the EU.
Ireland hasn't covered itself in glory today. It's a win for dem dat don't like to pay tax.

murpho999

Bowie wrote: »

Secures Ireland's reputation as a corporate tax haven and sticks two fingers up at the EU. All nice and legal like.

FF/FG would be well advised not to wallow in this 'victory'.

How is it two fingers to the EU when an EU court/body has just found the charges were incorrect.

Can you not see that Ireland has been cleared of any wrong doing?

walshb

Shefwedfan wrote: »

They should at least learn the basic before shouting and roaring about it


Having a leader of a political party been so stupid she doesnt understand was a low point for the education system in the whole of Ireland

I'd take a look here.....

Bit of tidying up would make your point a lot more valid.

talla10

Bowie wrote: »

...and not forgetting the EU.
Ireland hasn't covered itself in glory today. It's a win for dem dat don't like to pay tax.

No its a real win for Paul Murphy, Richard Boyd Barrett and all the other populist politicians who can go on about this for the lifetime of the next few governments. Its easier to throw mud than actually having to govern!

blanch152

christy c wrote: »

This is the money Pearse Doherty, Mary Lou and other clowns wanted to spend only a short time ago- was foolish at the time but imagine how foolish we would have looked now if we did that?

This.

And Paul Murphy banging on about it.

Where are all the posters that were supporting this gone to?

walshb

talla10 wrote: »

No its a real win for Paul Murphy, Richard Boyd Barrett and all the other populist politicians who can go on about this for the lifetime of the next few governments. Its easier to throw mud than actually having to govern!

The thoughts of these people actually in charge of the country makes me nauseous...The most divisive politicians we have ever had.

FintanMcluskey

splinter65 wrote: »

SF/PBP/Peoples Front of Judea/Judean Peoples Front type activists told all their followers that this 13 billion was going to solve all our problems and was a bottomless pit really. And they believed it too.

Its the level of ignorance from people like Pearse Doherty thats staggering.

He hasnt a clue what the mechanics of the ruling was based upon but has no problem releasing statements full of uneducated drivel.

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

Secures Ireland's reputation as a corporate tax haven and sticks two fingers up at the EU. All nice and legal like.

FF/FG would be well advised not to wallow in this 'victory'.

Aren't you glad that we didn't spend the billions of money in the escrow account now? What kind of trouble would the country be in if we had to give it all back to Apple?

It clearly shows up the stupidity of those who called for the money to be spent.

walshb

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Its the level of ignorance from people like Pearse Doherty thats staggering.

He hasnt a clue what the mechanics of the ruling was based upon but has no problem releasing statements full of uneducated drivel.

Indeed

Next to no nuance or depth or intricacy to him and his like.

Everyone should have been united here against this.....

The country was accused of wrongdoing.....not just a part of it. The state, its people...we are together. And we ALL have been vindicated.

Mortelaro

Bowie wrote: »

...and not forgetting the EU.
Ireland hasn't covered itself in glory today. It's a win for dem dat don't like to pay tax.

Your lot would probably appeal it to the Special criminal court,they're that clueless

christy c

blanch152 wrote: »

This.

And Paul Murphy banging on about it.

Where are all the posters that were supporting this gone to?

Those posters usually hide their completely brain dead proposals behind "fairness".

Shefwedfan

Bowie wrote: »

...and not forgetting the EU.
Ireland hasn't covered itself in glory today. It's a win for dem dat don't like to pay tax.

Of course you are allowed to have your opinion.

The rest of us, it's a huge win for Ireland, all the people who are employed by these companies and who will hopefully in the future continue to be employed.

Edgware

d15ude wrote: »

Yes, it has.

But it's almost certain that the case will now move on to the European Court of Justice.

And if Apple had lost they would appeal as well. The legal profession have kids to feed as well

Iscreamkone

I propose we reduce the corporation tax to 10%.
This would boost inward investment at a time when it's badly needed and persuade those already here to grow their Irish business.

An Ri rua

walshb wrote: »

The thoughts of these people actually in charge of the country makes me nauseous...The most divisive politicians we have ever had.

Clearly they'll say that the judge was wrong and he /she on a big dirty salary too. The lizardy gougers.

blanch152

Iscreamkone wrote: »

I propose we reduce the corporation tax to 10%.
This would boost inward investment at a time when it's badly needed and persuade those already here to grow their Irish business.

I don't think that is necessary at this point in time, but it should be kept under review.

For Ireland, there is a balance between attracting companies and our ability to support them so that they maintain a real presence. For example, we have had issues with planning permission for Intel in Kildare. We have also had problems with the supply of particular types of graduates to MNCs which have meant immigration has had to take up the slack. Beyond that, there is the investment in infrastructure needed to support the MNCs.

Up until this year, it was clear that we were in an equilibrium state where the incentives on offer were ensuring that nearly anyone who wanted a job could get one. Covid-19 might change that balance, but it is too early to be definitive about the various different ways in which we will need to respond.

One thing is clear - the 12.5% rate has only been good for Ireland.

Wanderer78

Iscreamkone wrote: »

I propose we reduce the corporation tax to 10%.
This would boost inward investment at a time when it's badly needed and persuade those already here to grow their Irish business.

theyd hardly do more share buy backs, would they, instead of creating jobs?

CalamariFritti

astrofool wrote: »

You missed the avoidance vs. evasion class in school didn't you?

I did. Not that it matters. It’s essentially the same thing regardless whether there’s a thin veil of legality over it or not.

But people who themselves have 50% plus of their income taken by the taxman will applaud nonetheless. Go figure.

rob316

Absolutely no need to reduce it further. Well educated, english speaking country with little interference from government. The UK can offer the same and their rate is 18%.

Iscreamkone

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't think that is necessary at this point in time, but it should be kept under review.

For Ireland, there is a balance between attracting companies and our ability to support them so that they maintain a real presence. For example, we have had issues with planning permission for Intel in Kildare. We have also had problems with the supply of particular types of graduates to MNCs which have meant immigration has had to take up the slack. Beyond that, there is the investment in infrastructure needed to support the MNCs.

Up until this year, it was clear that we were in an equilibrium state where the incentives on offer were ensuring that nearly anyone who wanted a job could get one. Covid-19 might change that balance, but it is too early to be definitive about the various different ways in which we will need to respond.

One thing is clear - the 12.5% rate has only been good for Ireland.

If 12.5% is good, why wouldn't 10% be better?
It would piss off some in the EU, but with Brexit ongoing the EU may not want to push us too much.

Feisar

Shefwedfan wrote: »

They should at least learn the basic before shouting and roaring about it


Having a leader of a political party been so stupid she doesnt understand was a low point for the education system in the whole of Ireland

Oh she knows well. She's only pandering to her voters.

Shefwedfan

Feisar wrote: »

Oh she knows well. She's only pandering to her voters.

The funny part is the voters go on about every other party, they have done XYZ. Yet she lies constantly to them about everything and they lap it up and spout about how great she is


This is basic stuff, even the most stupid person in Ireland should at this stage realize the 13 billion is not going to be handed out to us. Yet we have her on TV telling people that we should take the 13 billion now because of Covid.


Either she is an idiot or she thinks the voters are idiots

rob316

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The funny part is the voters go on about every other party, they have done XYZ. Yet she lies constantly to them about everything and they lap it up and spout about how great she is


This is basic stuff, even the most stupid person in Ireland should at this stage realize the 13 billion is not going to be handed out to us. Yet we have her on TV telling people that we should take the 13 billion now because of Covid.


Either she is an idiot or she thinks the voters are idiots

The voters are idiots. Any moron can say what you want people to hear without any consequence to it.

Wanderer78

Iscreamkone wrote: »

If 12.5% is good, why wouldn't 10% be better?
It would piss off some in the EU, but with Brexit ongoing the EU may not want to push us too much.

again, theyd hardly send more of that money into things such as share buy backs?

The Rooster

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I did. Not that it matters. It’s essentially the same thing regardless whether there’s a thin veil of legality over it or not.

But people who themselves have 50% plus of their income taken by the taxman will applaud nonetheless. Go figure.

But to even call what Apple did as tax avoidance is wrong in my view. It was planning their tax affairs in a wholly legal manner in the most tax efficient manner that laws allowed. It's not like it was some sneaky loophole that a clever accountant found and few knew about.

According to Irish tax rules as they were, companies are only subject to Irish tax if they are tax resident here or if they have a permanent establishment (or branch) here. The Apple companies were not tax resident here but they did have a branch. The profits attributable to the branch were duly taxed at 12.5%.

The haven had a rule that companies resident there paid 0% tax. The Apple companies were tax resident in such a haven.

The US has a rule that says profits arising to US subsidiaries are subject to tax in the US with credit allowed for foreign tax paid. So under this rule Apple would have had an approximate 30% tax liability in the US. However, the US has an exemption to this called the "check the box" rule. Subject to certain conditions, which are easily met, this allows companies to defer their US tax until the funds are actually remitted to the US. Apple availed of this exemption/deferral, so legitimately paid no US tax on their profits.

Ireland got its fair share. Haven didn't want anything. The US were happy to defer their share.

Of course, morally it's not right that MNCs can park huge amounts of profits in havens to avail of 0% tax rates. As I said before, the US should have put an end to it years ago, but it has taken the OECD to come up with plans to stop it from the other side. So the profit generating IP has to be moved to a territory where the company has substance.

Robert McGrath

Pherekydes wrote: »

Whatever happened to the idea that everyone should pay their fair share of taxes?

This is not a question of how much tax Apple will pay

It’s a question of where they pay it

The main beneficiary of this ruling according to Seamus Coffey is the US Treasury. He says that these profits are ultimately taxable in the US one way or another, and the issue is whether or not tax is also payable in Europe - if it is, then Apple claim a credit in the US for the tax paid but it ultimately doesn’t affect their overall bill

christy c

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, theyd hardly send more of that money into things such as share buy backs?

They could use it for share buy backs, but i think the point is to get them in the door and 10% of something rather than 100% of nothing.

I'm not sure if changing the rate would do much good, a cost benefit analysis would be needed but even that would be difficult to model accurately.

murpho999

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I did. Not that it matters. It’s essentially the same thing regardless whether there’s a thin veil of legality over it or not.

But people who themselves have 50% plus of their income taken by the taxman will applaud nonetheless. Go figure.

Tax avoidance and tax evasion are not the same thing.

If for example you claim your own pension contributions against tax then you are legally avoiding tax not evading it.

Massive difference.

There's no "think veil of legality" either, either something is legal or it is not and in this case it has been found to be legal.

I just don't see what the problem is.

Wanderer78

christy c wrote: »

They could use it for share buy backs, but i think the point is to get them in the door and 10% of something rather than 100% of nothing.

I'm not sure if changing the rate would do much good, a cost benefit analysis would be needed but even that would be difficult to model accurately.

so reducing it, may not do much for us at all, theyre already here, and by the looks of things, they aint going anywhere

Robert McGrath

Iscreamkone wrote: »

If 12.5% is good, why wouldn't 10% be better?
It would piss off some in the EU, but with Brexit ongoing the EU may not want to push us too much.

No - there has been a longstanding commitment by successive Irish governments not to touch the CT rate. It’s treated as untouchable. If it’s reduced to 10% then the rate is no longer untouchable in principle. I think reducing it would be a mistake as it would make the unthinkable thinkable

The Rooster

Iscreamkone wrote: »

If 12.5% is good, why wouldn't 10% be better?
It would piss off some in the EU, but with Brexit ongoing the EU may not want to push us too much.

You're probably a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but 12.5% is our trademark. It's been there a long time, it's got through a lot of international pressure to be changed, but it's still set in stone.

Moving it down wouldn't give a whole heap of benefit, but it would create some uncertainty. "If it can move down, it can move up", etc. Companies who make the investment to create jobs here crave stability and predictability. Knowing that our 12.5% rate is here to stay, no matter what, is a great trademark, and moving it even slightly, up or down, would negatively impact on that.