Yay!!!! Ireland wins appeal at Europe's General Court!!

greenfield21

Tony EH wrote: »

Hilarious how this is being spun as, somehow, a victory for "Ireland". :pac:

I wonder will the EU tell our leaders to fuck off when we go back to them and look for some bail out money to help with the post-Covid situation.

They'd be well within the right to do so.

Because apparently it damages our reputation even though everyone knows we are already a tax haven anyway. It doesn't make any sense.

I've yet to see a breakdown of where the 13bn would have been paid, if the case went the other way. Has anyone got a link to a table or source that shows how much would have been ours or France's if we'd lost the case?

Shefwedfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've yet to see a breakdown of where the 13bn would have been paid, if the case went the other way. Has anyone got a link to a table or source that shows how much would have been ours or France's if we'd lost the case?

How many Apple devices are sold in Ireland compared to France? Under 5 mill people v over 66 million

tjhook

i_surge wrote: »

The basics of a very good life for 5 million people is easily earned.

It is if you have 10 million tax payers. Sorry, couldn't resist

Ignoring COVID, In this country, there are 2.3 million workers. The last I heard, a third of those pay no income tax. Which leaves roughly 1.5m people paying income tax. That number won't earn enough to provide 5 million people with a good life, even with a 52% marginal tax rate.

That creates a high dependency on corporations to provide taxes. The spending/consumption of our population doesn't in itself support such a volume of industry. Hence the need for multinationals (whether they're headquartered in this country or elsewhere).

Honestly, I don't think it's easy at all.

jimmycrackcorm

i_surge wrote: »

W
If we cut costs, fixed the housing market and became much more self sustained in terms food, energy, medicine we would have a much stronger base to not kiss ass from.

Basically you're just describing becoming the Ireland from the 1970's.
No thanks...

i_surge

tjhook wrote: »

It is if you have 10 million tax payers. Sorry, couldn't resist

Ignoring COVID, In this country, there are 2.3 million workers. The last I heard, a third of those pay no income tax. Which leaves roughly 1.5m people paying income tax. That number won't earn enough to provide 5 million people with a good life, even with a 52% marginal tax rate.

That creates a high dependency on corporations to provide taxes. The spending/consumption of our population doesn't in itself support such a volume of industry. Hence the need for multinationals (whether they're headquartered in this country or elsewhere).

Honestly, I don't think it's easy at all.

It's a slave mentality imo

Food
Shelter
Utilities
Recreation
Education
Infrastructure
Healthcare

At a basic human level these are relatively simple to provide for 5M people in Ireland.

In terms of human potential, 13 billion is the lifetime earnings of 1000 people on minimum wage. There is a moral element to that human cost in a winner takes all world.

i_surge

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Basically you're just describing becoming the Ireland from the 1970's.
No thanks...

Quite the opposite.

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How many Apple devices are sold in Ireland compared to France? Under 5 mill people v over 66 million

Yeah, I get that. Common sense, really. It's just, boards is the only place I've seen anyone say "we'd only have gotten a fraction of the 13bn". I'm not saying it isn't correct, I just haven't seen anyone else say it or give any sort of a breakdown. I know very little about all of this, tbh.

smurgen

Shefwedfan wrote: »

SF = idiots

You were defending a drink driving animal abuser with business debts who subsequently got the sack in record time. Your opinion means nothing.

CatFromHue

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, I get that. Common sense, really. It's just, boards is the only place I've seen anyone say "we'd only have gotten a fraction of the 13bn". I'm not saying it isn't correct, I just haven't seen anyone else say it or give any sort of a breakdown. I know very little about all of this, tbh.

I don't think there ever was a breakdown compiled.

The article linked is from 2016

https://www.thejournal.ie/apple-tax-2955480-Aug2016/

Vestager said other EU countries will now have the option to try and take a piece of the tax pie if they can prove some of Apple’s profits funnelled through Ireland were based on sales in their territories.

smurgen

I'm not sure this is much of a win or loss for Ireland. On the one hand we asserted our sovereignty by defending the application of our tax,we also painted ourselves as stable to FDI. However this will be noted by the OECD and I'm sure will be highlighted in BEPS 2.0 who's update is due in October.

Shefwedfan

smurgen wrote: »

You were defending a drink driving animal abuser with business debts who subsequently got the sack in record time. Your opinion means nothing.

Maybe discuss the topic and not the poster for once

Shefwedfan

i_surge wrote: »

Quite the opposite.

Not really, no jobs mean everyone has to leave. Sounds very much like the bad days of Ireland

Geuze

Shelga wrote: »

This is what I don't understand though- from my reading of it, they are not attributable to any country? How can this be possible?

Fully admit that I do not understand how Apple uses Ireland, and still don't, after reading the RTE article- can someone explain it in the most simple of terms?

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2020/07/09/the-state-aid-judgement-and-stateless-income/

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2020/07/15/the-general-courts-ruling-on-asis-head-office/


What I think I know:

the two companies are Irish incorporated, i.e. born in Ireland
the two companies are managed in the USA

ASI have a branch in Cork
the chuck of ASI profits attributed to Cork branch were taxed as normal by Ireland
the rest of ASI profits (the majority) were not taxed by Ireland, as these profits were not generated here
the Revenue agreement was about how much of ASI profits should be attributed to Cork

The profits were always going to be eventually taxed by the USA.
But the USA allow deferral of CT until the profits are brought home by ASI to Apple in the USA


The Commission argued that all of ASI profits should be attributed to Cork

Geuze

Shelga wrote: »

Basically, Ireland wants to be seen as a tax haven who happily facilitate the repatriation of €110 billion in profits from one of the biggest companies on the planet, and help them to pay as little as possible on it.

Great. I feel like such a winner alright. #soproud

Read this:

https://twitter.com/seamuscoffey/status/1283375302618615811



FWIW, here's a summary of Apple Inc.'s income statements for the past ten years.

Total Revenue: $1,888bn
Cost of Goods Sold: $1,147bn
Other Expenses: $202bn
Profit Before Tax: $549bn
Tax Provision: $128bn
Net Profit: $420bn

Cash paid for tax: $96bn (16.8% of profit before tax).

Geuze

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we re all in desperate need of more tax revenue, and the majority of citizens are largely tapped out in this regard, something has to change

Loads of earners here are undertaxed, in my opinion, especially those over 65.

alias no.9

i_surge wrote: »

The only intelligent post here.

Amazing to see Turkeys applauding Christmas. At this stage, we need to start posturing ourselves as a highly developed country and gradually detach from FDI. We have the resources and the intellectual capacity to be an independent self sustained nation with an indigenous high tech economy but will never get there given the darth of vision and soul on display here from those busy sucking at the teat and honing their good slave routine while teeing us up for the next round of boom/bust.

For the most part, multinationals were a great place to ride out the last recession, our boom bust is mostly indigenous.

Geuze

Bowie wrote: »

As a tax haven.

Ireland is not a tax haven.

https://igees.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/What-makes-a-country-a-tax-haven.pdf

Abstract: This paper explores the issue of tax havens and tax competition. The recent intensified debate on tax havens is summarised, as is the important work of the OECD, the EU and the G-20 in this area and the ongoing research on the economic effects of tax havens. Ireland does not meet any of the OECD criteria for being a tax haven but because of its 12.5 per cent corporation tax rate and the open nature of the Irish economy, Ireland has on a few occasions been labelled a tax haven.

There are three primary reasons for this identified, each addressed in the paper:
a failure to distinguish between legitimate and abusive transfer pricing;
a misunderstanding of the role and regulation of IFSC;
and a dated but influential academic paper from 1994 that incorrectly included Ireland in a list of tax havens, based on a reason that has long since lost any validity.

i_surge

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not really, no jobs mean everyone has to leave. Sounds very much like the bad days of Ireland

Whatever basis you are coming from seems very limiting. No jobs....?!

We should use Covid as a chance for a hard reset about many of these issues, notwithstanding the fact that the chance of the rug being pulled out from under us at some stage has escalated with rising protectionism.

Cut cronyism, become efficient and stable. Not celebrating a cowboy culture from the past of winks and envelopes and excess.

Geuze

Bowie wrote: »

It's nothing to be proud of IMO. We are assisting the like of Apple dodge tax elsewhere. Legally it seems. Great that we are benefiting I just hope the same people cheering see the irony if this style of book keeping begins to work against us. It's the epitome of 'I'm alright Jack'.

There is no "tax dodge".

All these profits were generated in California, and have/will be taxed by the USA.

Geuze

Bowie wrote: »

We are profiting off the misery of others. Taxes that should be being paid elsewhere are avoided by using Ireland. It's great for the economy seemingly, but nothing to be proud of. I'm repeating myself here. We don't agree. Happens.

This statement is false.

The USA allowed a deferral of the CT due on these profits, yes.

But they will eventually be taxed, when returned to the USA.

Geuze

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Fcuking hell lads, neoclassical economics is effectively a pack of lies, it's clearly obvious. We have helped create a highly complex network of rent seekers sometimes called the 'rentier class', the fire sectors (finance, insurance and real estate), which bring very little to the table, but extract a lot. If you're heavily indebted, a large proportion of your income is extracted by this class, and probably a lot more than other classes such as the welfare class, apple would be a part of this rentier class

I agree with your criticism of the FIRE sector.

But Apple operate in a competitive market.

They make a phone for 100, and manage to sell it for 800.

They are not a monopoly.

Samsung is among their several competitors.

Nobody forces anybody to buy Apple products.

They have made massive profits based on innovation (and maybe marketing).

I would direct my ire elsewhere, e.g. land-owners, property developers, etc.

Geuze

Deleted User wrote: »

I've yet to see a breakdown of where the 13bn would have been paid, if the case went the other way. Has anyone got a link to a table or source that shows how much would have been ours or France's if we'd lost the case?

The USA.

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2020/07/15/the-general-courts-ruling-on-asis-head-office/

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2020/07/09/the-state-aid-judgement-and-stateless-income/

i_surge

alias no.9 wrote: »

For the most part, multinationals were a great place to ride out the last recession, our boom bust is mostly indigenous.

True and as I see it teeing us up with the skills to do a lot better rather than go in circles. All wishful thinking but if we used some of that cute hoor spirit to lean out of the corporate bureaucratic way of life we have been slowly adopting rather than sucking up to it we'd have the basis for doing big things on our own terms.

Geuze

This may help explain things:

James Brown

Geuze wrote: »

There is no "tax dodge".

All these profits were generated in California, and have/will be taxed by the USA.

That's not correct.
Profits were generated in places like Canada and elsewhere also.

James Brown

Geuze wrote: »

Ireland is not a tax haven.

https://igees.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/What-makes-a-country-a-tax-haven.pdf

Abstract: This paper explores the issue of tax havens and tax competition. The recent intensified debate on tax havens is summarised, as is the important work of the OECD, the EU and the G-20 in this area and the ongoing research on the economic effects of tax havens. Ireland does not meet any of the OECD criteria for being a tax haven but because of its 12.5 per cent corporation tax rate and the open nature of the Irish economy, Ireland has on a few occasions been labelled a tax haven.

There are three primary reasons for this identified, each addressed in the paper:
a failure to distinguish between legitimate and abusive transfer pricing;
a misunderstanding of the role and regulation of IFSC;
and a dated but influential academic paper from 1994 that incorrectly included Ireland in a list of tax havens, based on a reason that has long since lost any validity.

We help people and companies avoid paying tax.

Apple, the most valuable and most profitable company in the world, had been paying a corporate income tax of 5 percent or less thanks to a loophole in US and Ireland tax law, according to reports.

That is much less than the 12.5 percent Irish corporate tax rate and the 35 percent top US corporate tax rate.

The loophole, known as the “double Irish,” is perfectly legal.

...
In 2017, Apple earned $44.7 billion outside the US and paid just $1.65 billion in taxes, the BBC reported
https://nypost.com/2017/11/06/apple-avoids-ireland-tax-rate-by-moving-operation-to-island-of-jersey/

Ireland is a tax haven

The financial professionals and lawyers who have developed the corporate tax avoidance industry like to avoid terms such as “tax haven.” Instead, they prefer language about regulated entities that spread risk with efficient tax planning, aimed at facilitating a non-bank based structured finance regime. However, the Senate, the E.U. parliament and a growing list of social science experts prefer more straightforward language. As the recent research of Gabriel Zucman and the CORPNET research team at the University of Amsterdam shows, Ireland is a “conduit tax haven,” acting as a tax-avoiding funnel between nation-states and enabling the transfer of capital without taxation.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/04/25/ireland-is-tax-haven-thats-becoming-controversial-home/

tax ha·ven

/ˈtaks ˌhāvən/

noun

a country or independent area where taxes are levied at a low rate.

Geuze

Bowie wrote: »

That's not correct.
Profits were generated in places like Canada and elsewhere also.

Does Apple software development occur in Canada?

The HQ is Cupertino.

markodaly

Wanderer78 wrote: »

by any chance has the bureaucratic mess come from the introduction of the insurance sector into our health care sector, a known outcome of such activities, the insurance sector being a critical part of the fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate), known to be a fundamental part of global rent seekers?

So, the reason the HSE is an uncontrollable mess of middle management, outdated work practices, inflexible unions and bureaucracy is.... because of private health insurance?

You will need to give me some proper citations for that I am afraid.

markodaly

piplip87 wrote: »

'We didn't fight the British for 500 years to have Ireland governed by the EU"--- Gerry Adams

Ms McDonald, who now describes her party as "Euro critical" rather than Eurosceptical, said the treaty was a "carte blanche for further erosion of democracy....... On the Lisbon Treaty (which the commission tried to use in this case)
With all the talk of a Brexit in the media it's only right that Ireland follows the same path of a referendum on EU membership. Ireland would be better off leaving the EU bloc in order to take back our natural resources and independence from a group of unelected representatives who do not hold Ireland's best interest at heart but rather the interests of big business and banks through the privatisation of our public services .We call for a referendum..... Paul Murphy


What we see here is politicians on the Irish left who have lambasted the EU for decades for violating Irish Sovereignty all backing an attack on Ireland to set it's own tax laws.

We have the traditional pro EU parties seeing it for what it is: a money grab by the EU and an attempt to get some of the jobs.

They heard 13 Billion and went to town with a campaign to try and gain votes and spread mis-i formation regarding this.

Not surprising since their supporters still don't understand vote management, PRSTV, or basic maths (24% a majority).

It's a fantastic judgement and it means we can continue to attract FDI which keep highly skilled workers from emigrating and less skilled workers in retail, restaurants and other industries that have been built around the Docklands and other areas where these companies employ thousands of people..

This, so this.

The biggest critics of this case are SF, who paint themselves as standing up for the Irish nation, yet would have fully jumped for joy if the ruling went the other way.

Think about that for a few minutes. A self-proclaimed nationalist party siding with an external 'foreign' force that would have harmed the economic sovereignty of the nation.