Opening of "No-Food" pubs pushed out again

Kermit.de.frog

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Sometimes Ireland really does seem to ask for the stereotype it criticises when reflected back from the outside.

Aye. The virus has exposed serious issues this country has again. Maybe it will change over time.

MrStuffins

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Ya know what I'm not even going to bother. Its like banging your head off a brick wall to try and even have some sort of reasonable conversation with you before you try and twist words around.

The category of public house under the HPSC data accounts of 0.3% of Irelands total notified clusters while restaurants account of 0.5%. If you've an issue with it take it up with the HPSC and ask them for their reporting mechanism & definitions, this is the data they provide.

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/covid-19outbreaksclustersinireland/COVID-19%20Weekly%20Outbreak%20Highlights_web_version_Week452020_10112020_v1.0.pdf

Week ending Nov 7th?

stephenjmcd

MrStuffins wrote: »

Week ending Nov 7th?

Yes the report up to week 45, report up to week 46 should be out tomorrow.

Totals since Ireland began recording cases are in the totals category.

You have the total number of open clusters (a case linked to cluster in last 28 days), the total closed clusters(no case linked in last 28 days) and then both of them added together in the totals category.

Clusters notified in week 45 are in the total week 45 are would be part of the open category

MrStuffins

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Yes the report up to week 45.

Totals since Ireland began recording cases are in the totals category.

You have the total number of open clusters (a case linked to cluster in last 28 days), the total closed clusters(no case linked in last 28 days) and then both of them added together in the totals category.

Clusters notified in week 45 are in the total week 45 are would be part of the open category

stephenjmcd wrote: »

You understand the figure quoted is from while they were open yes ?

These are not the same thing I'm afraid

stephenjmcd

MrStuffins wrote: »

These are not the same thing I'm afraid

Right so what's your issue then with the HPSC data ??

It quite clearly says clusters since the start of covid in Ireland. A cluster being 2 or more cases which is the whole point I've been trying to get through in the last hour as to where the 0.3 figure comes from.
Public house = 22 - 0.3% of total clusters
Restaurant/ Cafe = 38 - 0.5% of total clusters

Total clusters in Ireland since the first notified case = 7266

What do you want to raise issue with there. Quite clearly listed in black and white by the HPSC.

We're going around in circles here and your trying to take issue with numbers being provided by the HPSC. Have a problem with them, contact them.

I give up, time to get some sleep. This is just pointless trying to explain easily readable data.

MrStuffins

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Right so what's your issue then with the HPSC data ??

It quite clearly says clusters since the start of covid in Ireland.

But that's not what you were saying.......

stephenjmcd wrote: »

You understand the figure quoted is from while they were open yes ?

So, the overall figure, since Covid started, was very low. That's great news.

It shows that the measures surrounding pubs have been a roaring success!

YFlyer

rubadub wrote: »

To make a profit, or if breaking even or even making a loss they might think it is in their interest to do so.

If most pubs remained closed then the ones that do open will have more trade than if all open, they could take bookings and ensure they are always full.

Just like a late night newsagent type shop, or takeaway opening into early hours even though fewer people might be out and about.

How more trade? Numbers are limited.

Cork2021

MrStuffins wrote: »

But that's not what you were saying.......



So, the overall figure, since Covid started, was very low. That's great news.

It shows that the measures surrounding pubs have been a roaring success!

You need delicious, succulent, creamy and astonishing pints to make you think straight!! Complete disregard for facts being put in front you by Stephen!!

stephenjmcd

MrStuffins wrote: »

But that's not what you were saying.......



So, the overall figure, since Covid started, was very low. That's great news.

It shows that the measures surrounding pubs have been a roaring success!

Not sure what your finding so difficult about this.

For one final time which has been my point all the way along this pointless engagement, those are the cluster numbers since covid began in Ireland, have an issue with them contact the HPSC, seeing how contact tracing works are they accurate, who knows but thats whats there

Cork2021

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Not sure what your finding so difficult about this.

For one final time which has been my point all the way along this pointless engagement, those are the cluster numbers since covid began in Ireland, have an issue with them contact the HPSC.

Probably locked from all of the delicious creamy bags of cans!

Drifter50

MelbourneMan wrote: »

I think generally open for December 2021 would be a reasonably ambitious, yet realistic and hopeful target. The mistake of opening them, even with limitations will not be attempted again until there is a confirmed effect of a vaccination programme. Its extraordinary they pubs are occupying the media space they do at the moment. The question is trivial in the context of the overall economy, virus struggle, and general impact on society. Sometimes Ireland really does seem to ask for the stereotype it criticises when reflected back from the outside.

Thats a ridiculous statement
In my home village there is 1 shop and 3 pubs and thats for the hinterland around as well. The pub is the focal point of the village, its where people meet, eat, drink and hold social functions. Closure of the 3 pubs has turned the village and the area into a dead ghost village. It has made a huge impact on everyones life, mental health, social interaction , business. I could go on.

Over 20% unemployment rate at the moment not including the many tens of thousands on the TWSS.
I would think all businesses closed of which the hospitality sector is a huge part are certainly not trivial in the context of the economy.

stephenjmcd

Cork2021 wrote: »

Probably locked from all of the delicious creamy bags of cans!

Ah I wouldn't bother, going around and around in circles every time, its tedious. Anyway I'm best off disengaging before saying something that might over step the line for mods, they've enough to be at as it is.

bucketybuck

MelbourneMan wrote: »

The mistake of opening them, even with limitations will not be attempted again until there is a confirmed effect of a vaccination programme.

Why do you continue to pretend you have any influence in those decisions?

Cork2021

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why do you continue to pretend you have any influence in those decisions?

There’s more then one screw loose id say...

PommieBast

giveitholly wrote: »

December 2021,jaysus I have read some fair shoite on this forum but this tops it all

As much as I hate to say it I think Melbyman may be right.

Open the Pubs

This country is a grim place without pubs. The weather is so terrible, totally ruins many outdoor activities for most of the year.

Macy0161

vafankillar wrote: »

you the link you provided isn't given evidence they have spread the virus in ireland.

i'm not even saying you're wrong in your position, but if you look at the evidence collected of what settings have been proven to spread the virus here, pubs and restaurants aren't high on the lists.

I think the "evidence" we have here in Ireland that is really limited either way, due to the contact tracing.

We have teaching unions giving out about the contact tracing not going back far enough hence the low numbers in school, while simultaneously having vintners and retail pointing to the lack of evidence of specific clusters tied to their sectors as why they should reopen.

In the context of our States contact tracing, we probably do have to rely on evidence from other countries at this point of time?

What I'm witnessing is that there's a lack of compliance with the current restrictions regardless of alcohol / pubs being involved. Not sure the pubs being open would help that being honest. Basically, people who are breaking other restrictions will point at "someone else" as the cause of cases...

MrStuffins

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Not sure what your finding so difficult about this.

For one final time which has been my point all the way along this pointless engagement, those are the cluster numbers since covid began in Ireland, have an issue with them contact the HPSC, seeing how contact tracing works are they accurate, who knows but thats whats there

And your argument shows that the measures surrounding pubs have been a massive success! That's great news!

MOH

Enzo Narrow Tannery wrote: »

loads of evidence based studies say bars/restaurants are most dangerous setting. No guidance on how they could make them safer though. Its dreadful from NPHET .

Enzo Narrow Tannery wrote: »

Do you really believe Ireland is an outlier to every other country? In cork there was a big cluster linked back to a cafe. Indoor buildings that are poorly ventilated spread the disease. This is fact. https://theconversation.com/many-of-our-buildings-are-poorly-ventilated-and-that-adds-to-covid-risks-149830
Give better guidance on air quality , grants to businesses to buy necessary equipment etc and see where we go from there. Advising people to wash their hands thinking everything will be rosy is futile at this point.
Guy on prime time just now mentioning some of this, hopefully opens up the conversation.

That El Pais article you linked to (sorry, quoted wrong post) is really about indoor spaces in general, and implies schools should be closed more than it does pubs. I think it's based on this? I can't access the spreadsheet at the moment, I'd be curious what the caveats are in the readme tab.
But it's worth noting that the graphical elements in that article are based on a tool designed to estimate Covid transmission risk under various circumstances. They're not scientific analyses of potential transmission in a pub.
And the specific example quoted is of 400 people in a nightclub, not a pub with social distancing measures in place.


I've come across that Cork example cited numerous times as an indicator of the spread in pubs, including in one post elsewhere today that included three different links - at least two of them were referencing the same incident, and the third was unclear but may have been. As per the clusters report that stephenjmcd linked to, there have been a total of 23 clusters linked to pubs since March. There were more than that for schools last week alone.
And restaurant aren't much higher.
If anything, the fact that everyone chooses the same incident to cite as an example, and that this was unusual enough to be news in October, demonstrates to me that pubs and restaurants with appropriate social distancing measures aren't a significant risk.

saabsaab

'lots of people together in an enclosed environment with poor airflow and usually some sort of talking or singing involved leads to lots of people in that environment getting infected'


Not against pubs reopening but it's hard to avoid the above in many pubs. need windows and door open, space and maybe firebarrels?

DulchieLaois

Society today is drained, weather is not helping, short days along with not having gyms, swimming pools open.

I find that many people are getting up, work all day and slump for the evening cause there no activities to go to which would have been the norm before COVID.

People are also getting annoyed that
1. Public transport capacity is not being policed
2. Large funerals still happening as example in Longford today, 10 times d max of 25 people (RTÉ won’t show this)
3. Pubs serving take away pints...I thought level 5 meant total shutdown instead of people congregating on a street

And yet the Guards are not or will not do anything about it.

People are getting tired and run down so open d whole country for December and let’s enjoy and be happy and end the year in a positive manner while still being considerate of others.

In January, I am sure everyone won’t mind if the pubs are closed.

rubadub

rubadub wrote: »

If most pubs remained closed then the ones that do open will have more trade than if all open, they could take bookings and ensure they are always full.

Just like a late night newsagent type shop, or takeaway opening into early hours even though fewer people might be out and about. .

YFlyer wrote: »

How more trade? Numbers are limited.

What numbers are limited? I am saying more trade in their particular pub than if all were open, obviously not necessarily more trade than in non-covid times (though it is feasible depending on how many close and if they were rarely busy before covid)

I mean if you had a small village with 10 pubs, and all had the choice to open and only 1 bothered to then it would be more likely to have full bookings no matter what day or time. While if all 10 opened then on say a tuesday afternoon they would all struggle to get full bookings, even if all of them had more limited capacity than normal.

fin12

MOH wrote: »

That El Pais article you linked to (sorry, quoted wrong post) is really about indoor spaces in general, and implies schools should be closed more than it does pubs. I think it's based on this? I can't access the spreadsheet at the moment, I'd be curious what the caveats are in the readme tab.
But it's worth noting that the graphical elements in that article are based on a tool designed to estimate Covid transmission risk under various circumstances. They're not scientific analyses of potential transmission in a pub.
And the specific example quoted is of 400 people in a nightclub, not a pub with social distancing measures in place.


I've come across that Cork example cited numerous times as an indicator of the spread in pubs, including in one post elsewhere today that included three different links - at least two of them were referencing the same incident, and the third was unclear but may have been. As per the clusters report that stephenjmcd linked to, there have been a total of 23 clusters linked to pubs since March. There were more than that for schools last week alone.
And restaurant aren't much higher.
If anything, the fact that everyone chooses the same incident to cite as an example, and that this was unusual enough to be news in October, demonstrates to me that pubs and restaurants with appropriate social distancing measures aren't a significant risk.

The biggest cluster in cork in the hospitality sector was a cafe, 53 cases. But that doesn’t fit the narrative they want.

MelbourneMan

fin12 wrote: »

The biggest cluster in cork in the hospitality sector was a cafe, 53 cases. But that doesn’t fit the narrative they want.

That you perceive the presence of a narrative shows a strange bias.

There is no narrative. There is no hidden agenda against public houses. There is no grinch taking pleasure in denying the plain people of Ireland their beverage of choice.

The solution is very simple indeed - maybe it is this very simplicity that has people concoct greater and greater fantasy explanations as the truth doesnt lead them to the answer they want to arrive at. The rationale is that people meet in pubs. Reducing people meeting is the key to virus containment. Responsible governments will implement actions with the lowest negative effect, while reducing person to person contact. Closing pubs fits the bill admirably. So they are closed.

It really is as simple as that, and am glad to have helped to clear it up for any here still following the nonsense 'what proportion of cases were traceable to public house settings ?' question.

fin12

MelbourneMan wrote: »

That you perceive the presence of a narrative shows a strange bias.

There is no narrative. There is no hidden agenda against public houses. There is no grinch taking pleasure in denying the plain people of Ireland their beverage of choice.

The solution is very simple indeed - maybe it is this very simplicity that has people concoct greater and greater fantasy explanations as the truth doesnt lead them to the answer they want to arrive at. The rationale is that people meet in pubs. Reducing people meeting is the key to virus containment. Responsible governments will implement actions with the lowest negative effect, while reducing person to person contact. Closing pubs fits the bill admirably. So they are closed.

It really is as simple as that, and am glad to have helped to clear it up for any here still following the nonsense 'what proportion of cases were traceable to public house settings ?' question.

Well I choose to believe the opposite and that’s that.

Padre_Pio

MelbourneMan wrote: »

That you perceive the presence of a narrative shows a strange bias.

There is no narrative. There is no hidden agenda against public houses. There is no grinch taking pleasure in denying the plain people of Ireland their beverage of choice.

I would disagree with this to an extent. True, pubs and restaurants can cause COVID cluster and it's sensible (tho annoying) they're closed.

Schools are seen as essential, both to keep children in education, and keep working parents at work. There is no provision to close schools at any quarantine level and there won't be.
That said, information around COVID in schools seems to be presented differently.
There's much less testing, Two days of national COVID tests is more tests than they've ever done in schools since March.
Parents and close contacts of children are not counted in any school cluster reports, only students and teachers.
Running averages are usually cherry picked or given as monthly averages instead of a 5 day average to bring the figures down.
There's definitely a correlation between schools opening and the second wave, in most countries where they reopened schools.

I can understand why the govt are doing this, its better for the economy, for children and for workers to be going out, doing something every day.

FrStone

MelbourneMan wrote: »

The rationale is that people meet in pubs. Reducing people meeting is the key to virus containment.

As you well know, when pubs are closed people meet in private houses. Social distancing and masks are non existent in private houses. That's doesn't fit your lock everything down narrative though...

fin12

I see in Australia people were in a massive stadium with no social distancing, no masks nothing but we can’t go to a pub.

FrStone

fin12 wrote: »

I see in Australia people were in a massive stadium with no social distancing, no masks nothing but we can’t go to a pub.

Tony doesn't like pubs.

fin12

FrStone wrote: »

Tony doesn't like pubs.

He might start hitting the bottle himself when this is all over and be glad to get into a pub.

MrStuffins

[Deleted User] wrote: »

anti-pub agenda

fin12 wrote: »

narrative

FrStone wrote: »

narrative

Some people are living in a paranoid fantasy land! Like there is some sort of Deep-State plan by the Lizard People to destroy the pubs and to persecute the publicans of the country.

There's a pandemic and people can't be trusted to go to the pub without restrictions and not act the ball*cks. It's unfortunate because it takes away everyone else's opportunity to enjoy a few scoops but it's the reality!

You just have to look at this thread at some of the lads who are the most vocal about the pubs openly bragging about having house parties. These and their kind are the ones who can't be trusted and who are keeping the pubs closed

fin12

MrStuffins wrote: »

Some people are living in a paranoid fantasy land! Like there is some sort of Deep-State plan by the Lizard People to destroy the pubs and to persecute the publicans of the country.

There's a pandemic and people can't be trusted to go to the pub without restrictions and not act the ball*cks. It's unfortunate because it takes away everyone else's opportunity to enjoy a few scoops but it's the reality!

You just have to look at this thread at some of the lads who are the most vocal about the pubs openly bragging about having house parties. These and their kind are the ones who can't be trusted and who are keeping the pubs closed

It’s not just pubs, it’s drink in general. They have some serious issues with alcohol. I don’t know is it cause they are all recovering alcoholics or what but they want it banned outright.

MrStuffins

fin12 wrote: »

is it cause they are all recovering alcoholics

Wow! If this is the height of the thinking from the "open the pubs" brigade then the publicans really are in trouble.

MrStuffins

MrStuffins wrote: »

There's a pandemic and people can't be trusted to go to the pub without restrictions and not act the ball*cks. It's unfortunate because it takes away everyone else's opportunity to enjoy a few scoops but it's the reality!

Would you ever stop with this contrived gibberish. It's beyond parody at this stage.

Who says the restrictions are disappearing? They're not. Social distancing will apply as ever.

Act the bollocks, how on earth would you know. Do you mooch on the corner like a peeping tom, keeping tabs on pubs in all directions. I get the impression you haven't darkened the doorstep of a pub in a long time, if ever. Only person "acting the bollocks" here is you casting wild aspersions.

And then you set-up a ridiculous contradiction with the same people who can't be trusted to behave themselves unable to enjoy a few scoops after all. Talk about cognitive dissonance. Give up the petty charade, you've been rumbled and don't like it one bit.

hynesie08

Is the same lad who was bragging about skirting the rules first go round with his €9 nachos and a pint deal the one trying to say people can't be trusted?

MrStuffins

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Act the bollocks, how on earth would you know. Do you mooch on the corner like a peeping tom, keeping tabs on pubs in all directions.

Now you think there are people lurking in the shadows looking to take the pubs down.

Honestly lads, a lot of these posts wouldnt be out of place on Donald Trump's Twitter!

Neowise

MrStuffins wrote: »

Some people are living in a paranoid fantasy land! Like there is some sort of Deep-State plan by the Lizard People to destroy the pubs and to persecute the publicans of the country.

There's a pandemic and people can't be trusted to go to the pub without restrictions and not act the ball*cks. It's unfortunate because it takes away everyone else's opportunity to enjoy a few scoops but it's the reality!

You just have to look at this thread at some of the lads who are the most vocal about the pubs openly bragging about having house parties. These and their kind are the ones who can't be trusted and who are keeping the pubs closed

What is this word?

ballacks
ballecks
ballicks
ballocks
ballucks
or
bollocks?


Can you just write bollocks if you mean bollocks as all the bollocks you are spouting is a real pain in the bollocks to read.

MrStuffins

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I get the impression you haven't darkened the doorstep of a pub in a long time, if ever.

hynesie08 wrote: »

Is the same lad who was bragging about skirting the rules first go round with his €9 nachos and a pint deal the one trying to say people can't be trusted?

"You have a drinking problem and spend too much time in the pub"

"You have an anti-pub agenda"

"You haven't been to a pub ever"

"You skirted the rules when you were eating nachos and drinking pints in the pub"

Gas!

https://frinkiac.com/video/S06E16/zekjxKnG5RYLAOl--Zgnq03hbnQ=.gif

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

MrStuffins wrote: »

"You have a drinking problem and spend too much time in the pub"

"You have an anti-pub agenda"

"You haven't been to a pub ever"

"You skirted the rules when you were eating nachos and drinking pints in the pub"

Gas!

https://frinkiac.com/video/S06E16/zekjxKnG5RYLAOl--Zgnq03hbnQ=.gif

You're perfectly happy to sit on your high horse lecturing us all though. You'd fit right in with NPHET, not one solitary fûck do you give for business of this country. You say the stuff you read on this thread is like Donald Trump's twitter feed yet you live in fantasy land. If businesses including pubs don't open soon there won't be many left to open. Wake up and stop swallowing all the NPHET kool aid.

FrStone

FrStone wrote: »

As you well know, when pubs are closed people meet in private houses. Social distancing and masks are non existent in private houses. That's doesn't fit your lock everything down narrative though...

People don't have to meet in private houses though, nobody is forcing them to just because the pubs are closed. They could show a bit of responsibility and stay at home.

bucketybuck

Hunky Monster wrote: »

If businesses including pubs don't open soon there won't be many left to open. Wake up and stop swallowing all the NPHET kool aid.

I think it will be interesting whenever the time comes that pubs are allowed to open their doors, to see just how many are no longer able to.

We see all the closed doors right now, but there seems to be this unspoken assumption that they will all open up and start serving pints when the time comes. But business doesn't work like that so I wonder how many pubs are already done and dusted? They aren't all family owned buildings with the mortgages paid off years ago, most of them have their costs, rents and liabilities and I'd be shocked if after 8 months that the issue isn't now academic, that they are already insolvent and have ceased trading.

In normal times you notice when a pub shuts its doors, now it will be a case of seeing who opens theirs.

Macy0161

bucketybuck wrote: »

I think it will be interesting whenever the time comes that pubs are allowed to open their doors, to see just how many are no longer able to.

How many of those pubs would've survived adhering to the restrictions when they were allowed to open? They're probably better off at the current restrictions, with the Government supports, than a capped number due to the restrictions, additional costs of cleaning? Assuming they plan to stick to the "rules".

Even if they're trying, I'd say it's a nightmare, given my knowledge (and what I love about) my local pubs - all about squeezing in at the bar, randomly going in to see who's in, chat with complete randomers etc.

MrStuffins

Hunky Monster wrote: »

You're perfectly happy to sit on your high horse lecturing us all though. You'd fit right in with NPHET, not one solitary fûck do you give for business of this country. You say the stuff you read on this thread is like Donald Trump's twitter feed yet you live in fantasy land. If businesses including pubs don't open soon there won't be many left to open. Wake up and stop swallowing all the NPHET kool aid.

No high horse here my friend!

And you misunderstand me. I'd love for the pubs to be open. But we must take the safety of others into account first. I really hope the pubs open in Dec with the proper restrictions, although the Vintners are against they so who knows?

As I said before, we'd be fine if it wasn't for certain people who just care about themselves. Bragging about their house parties! It's pretty selfish

hynesie08

Macy0161 wrote: »

How many of those pubs would've survived adhering to the restrictions when they were allowed to open? They're probably better off at the current restrictions, with the Government supports, than a capped number due to the restrictions, additional costs of cleaning? Assuming they plan to stick to the "rules".

Even if they're trying, I'd say it's a nightmare, given my knowledge (and what I love about) my local pubs - all about squeezing in at the bar, randomly going in to see who's in, chat with complete randomers etc.

What government supports?

No rent freeze

Vat reduction no good if you're not buying in stock.

Restart grant only applies when you reopen.

Crss is only 10% of your weekly turnover if you qualify.

There's the loans at 4%, but would you leverage your house against a (probably additional) business loan when you have no idea when you'll actually be allowed run a business again??

Macy0161

PUP if self employed.

hynesie08

Macy0161 wrote: »

PUP if self employed.

Grand if you're a single man/women without kids. But how anyone can run a house off that is beyond me (obviously dependant on if there's a second income)

Macy0161

hynesie08 wrote: »

Grand if you're a single man/women without kids. But how anyone can run a house off that is beyond me (obviously dependant on if there's a second income)

Not saying compared to pre-covid - my comparison was to restricted opening. Depends on the size of the pub obviously.

hynesie08

Macy0161 wrote: »

Not saying compared to pre-covid - my comparison was to restricted opening. Depends on the size of the pub obviously.

I wasn't having a go, I just remembered Leo said something similar and some friends of mine in the trade got very angry.

Also, if pubs were allowed open under certain restrictions in December, and it would actually cost them more to open than stay closed, would they be entitled to the reliefs? Or will they be told to suck it up?

Macy0161

hynesie08 wrote: »

Also, if pubs were allowed open under certain restrictions in December, and it would actually cost them more to open than stay closed, would they be entitled to the reliefs? Or will they be told to suck it up?

They can be open for takeaway pints now, and do qualify. I did think it was if they weren't viable at the current level of restrictions, but don't know tbh.

hynesie08

Macy0161 wrote: »

They can be open for takeaway pints now, and do qualify. I did think it was if they weren't viable at the current level of restrictions, but don't know tbh.

The few pubs I know of that took advantage of the loan used it to buy fridges and growlers, so there's a point there, but let's be honest, that's not viable for 90% of pubs nationwide.