Opening of "No-Food" pubs pushed out again

cityboyjim

Havent seen many of those in rural villages I pass through .

El_Duderino 09

Yeah but let’s not lose sight of how this discussion off spending time in coffee shops, arose. Some posters wanted to make an argument that pubs and coffee shops should be treated the same way and if pubs are closed then coffee shops should be closed and vice versa. So they come up with an argument that people spend loads of time in coffee shops.

I’ve asked a few times if people generally spend as long in pubs and coffee shops and some posters have replied with specific examples of individuals who spend time in coffee shops.

Under normal circumstances nobody would argue that people generally spend similar time in coffee shops and pubs. But that’s what this discussion does to people. They end up having to make spurious arguments to make their case, and others will join in!

fin12

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah but let’s not lose sight of how this discussion off spending time in coffee shops, arose. Some posters wanted to make an argument that pubs and coffee shops should be treated the same way and if pubs are closed then coffee shops should be closed and vice versa. So they come up with an argument that people spend loads of time in coffee shops.

I’ve asked a few times if people generally spend as long in pubs and coffee shops and some posters have replied with specific examples of individuals who spend time in coffee shops.

Under normal circumstances nobody would argue that people generally spend similar time in coffee shops and pubs. But that’s what this discussion does to people. They end up having to make spurious arguments to make their case, and others will join in!

It doesn’t matter how many hours u spend in a pub or coffee shop because u only have to be in the company of someone who is infected for 15 minutes To get the virus so u can become infected just as easily in both.

HBC08

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What should they have done?

You’re the VFI and the government tells you that they don’t consider the pubs an essential business. They are high on the list of business to close and low on the list of business to reopen. What would you do better than the VFI?

I would not have suggested closing the off licences as long as pubs were closed.I never had any respect for Vintner groups but they really proved how useless,outdated and inept they are,faux concern wrapped up in spite.
They should have been lobbying for proper supports for their sector and had a coherent message.If I ran a pub I wouldn't be paying a subscription to any of these groups if and when things open up.

Bass Reeves

fin12 wrote: »

It doesn’t matter how many hours u spend in a pub or coffee shop because u only have to be in the company of someone who is infected for 15 minutes To get the virus so u can become infected just as easily in both.

Sometimes I wonder when people were born did they miss there intelligence quota. Getting infected has nothing to do with how long you are in someone's company. Government and the HSE has to set criteria for close contacts. This is that someone is within two meters of an infected individual for longer than 15 minutes inside or outside. This is purely a definition you may or may not get infected. It purely a criteria for testing and for people to isolate.

After that they risk access different social settings. There assessment indicates to them that pubs and restaurants are high risk environment where people let there guards down. People are much more likely to do something that will transmit the virus. They are more likely to be in a situation where it is picked up and spread. We were told from the start of the opening to try to maintain as low as possible a number of contacts. Guess what some people did not.

It fairly easy to spot the cause of the surge. Before December we were down at about 400cases per day. Schooled and essential businesses were open. Before December and we reduced the level from near 1k/day to 400/day. Now we are above 2k/day.
Lockdowns are to care for the idiot factor. In other words it reduces the ability of idiots to act the idiot.

We all can see clearly that pubs and restaurants that did not completely abide by the rules, people who entered these premises that did not abey the rules. Shops that were told pre Christmas not to have sales and on St Stephens day what did they do Guess what they acted the idiot and the people going to these sales were....ya you guessed it idiots.

Lockdowns are because we have too many idiots we cannot factor for these idiots we we have to have really stringent rules that are ......idiot proof.

El_Duderino 09

fin12 wrote: »

It doesn’t matter how many hours u spend in a pub or coffee shop because u only have to be in the company of someone who is infected for 15 minutes To get the virus so u can become infected just as easily in both.

But far more likely in one because people commonly spend hours, or half a day, in one and not the other.

There’s also the behaviour change caused by alcohol. But we all know this. It’s only in dispute for the sake of this specific argument. Nobody would make the argument that people generally spend the same time in coffee shops and pubs. It’s just made up for this specific argument.

El_Duderino 09

HBC08 wrote: »

I would not have suggested closing the off licences as long as pubs were closed.I never had any respect for Vintner groups but they really proved how useless,outdated and inept they are,faux concern wrapped up in spite.
They should have been lobbying for proper supports for their sector and had a coherent message.If I ran a pub I wouldn't be paying a subscription to any of these groups if and when things open up.

I’d agree they should lobby for support for their members but I’m not sure there should be a pub-specific bailout and not bailouts for other businesses.

Should there be specific bailouts for each business type? I agree with supporting businesses through this period and I acknowledge that some business will fail as a result of this disruption to trading.

I also acknowledge that the bailouts are all funded with borrowed money and we’ll all be paying tax to pay off this debt for the rest of our working lives. But I still think it’s worth doing.

I know this is a pub thread but I miss sitting in coffee shops. I'd have my laptop with me to do a bit of work and some people watching. Or even just to go in to for a few minutes in the middle of a busy day. I'm hopeful that will return.

PTH2009

Deleted User wrote: »

I know this is a pub thread but I miss sitting in coffee shops. I'd have my laptop with me to do a bit of work and some people watching. Or even just to go in to for a few minutes in the middle of a busy day. I'm hopeful that will return.

Not aimed as you

People watching is just a fancy term for nosy bollocks :D

PTH2009

PTH2009 wrote: »

Not aimed as you

People watching is just a fancy term for nosy bollocks :D

Well as it happens I am nosey! Or as I prefer to call myself 'curious'.

bucketybuck

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Sometimes I wonder when people were born did they miss there intelligence quota.

*Their

Aongus Von Bismarck

Extremely sobering figures coming out of Ireland tonight. I presume even the most foolhardy 'open the pubs' bore must now admit that was a supremely stupid and self-centred thing to be advocating for back in November and December? Lads getting maudlin about some fat man pouring them a pint of plain in the local while they watch Fulham vs Doncaster Rovers in the FA Cup.

The decision to open hospitality at all was a serious error of judgement, and the figures would have been even worse if we had allowed Vinny Vinter to open his doors to every sort of soak, lush, and rummy.

TheValeyard

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Extremely sobering figures coming out of Ireland tonight. I presume even the most foolhardy 'open the pubs' bore must now admit that was a supremely stupid and self-centred thing to be advocating for back in November and December? Lads getting maudlin about some fat man pouring them a pint of plain in the local while they watch Fulham vs Doncaster Rovers in the FA Cup.

The decision to open hospitality at all was a serious error of judgement, and the figures would have been even worse if we had allowed Vinny Vinter to open his doors to every sort of soak, lush, and rummy.

This maybe the most honest post you've ever had on here.

TheValeyard

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well as it happens I am nosey! Or as I prefer to call myself 'curious'.

For science......

PTH2009

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Extremely sobering figures coming out of Ireland tonight. I presume even the most foolhardy 'open the pubs' bore must now admit that was a supremely stupid and self-centred thing to be advocating for back in November and December? Lads getting maudlin about some fat man pouring them a pint of plain in the local while they watch Fulham vs Doncaster Rovers in the FA Cup.

The decision to open hospitality at all was a serious error of judgement, and the figures would have been even worse if we had allowed Vinny Vinter to open his doors to every sort of soak, lush, and rummy.

So Hospitality is still getting the blame ?

pjohnson

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Extremely sobering figures coming out of Ireland tonight. I presume even the most foolhardy 'open the pubs' bore must now admit that was a supremely stupid and self-centred thing to be advocating for back in November and December? Lads getting maudlin about some fat man pouring them a pint of plain in the local while they watch Fulham vs Doncaster Rovers in the FA Cup.

The decision to open hospitality at all was a serious error of judgement, and the figures would have been even worse if we had allowed Vinny Vinter to open his doors to every sort of soak, lush, and rummy.

Nah they'll still bleat about saving the pubs (while drinking in some scuzzy shebeen)

El_Duderino 09

PTH2009 wrote: »

So Hospitality is still getting the blame ?

Getting the blame for what? Hospitality doesn’t have to be responsible for all the transmissions to be sensible to not open them.

Two main factors to consider are how many transmissions there are in an environment and how necessary that environment or business is. For example, the main place people get covid is in their own home from another family member who got it outside the house. After the home, the supermarket has the second highest number of transmissions.

But homes and supermarkets are necessary and can’t be shut down. Pubs don’t have to have the highest number of transmissions because they are totally optional and non essential so not makes perfect sense to shut them.

I’d also support more distancing measures in shops, particularly during this spike in transmissions.

Ish66

Look ! Pubs are closed, Offies open if you need a gargle. Get over it.

Stheno

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

. After the home, the supermarket has the second highest number of transmissions.
.

Have you any evidence to back up this assertion?

El_Duderino 09

Stheno wrote: »

Have you any evidence to back up this assertion?

It was in the stats published recently. I don’t have it to hand. I’ll have a look.

Edit: the data came from Public Health England and it wasn’t the location where people actually got covid. It’s the places people had been in the days before testing positive but it’s not conclusive.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-11-19/covid-supermarkets-revealed-as-place-visitors-and-workers-are-most-likely-to-be-exposed-to-coronavirus

Why did you want to know?

showpony1

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Extremely sobering figures coming out of Ireland tonight. I presume even the most foolhardy 'open the pubs' bore must now admit that was a supremely stupid and self-centred thing to be advocating for back in November and December? Lads getting maudlin about some fat man pouring them a pint of plain in the local while they watch Fulham vs Doncaster Rovers in the FA Cup.

They certainly weren't sober.

Meanwhile anyone with eyes who was in town in December saw thousands of people on Henry street packing into Penneys/JD Sports etc (buying their pyjamas & The North Face Jackets) which were left open for some reason as cases continued. This wasn't seen as a problem and they were left open even when things became "concerning".

showpony1

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

There was an article about people buying a cheap plane ticket so they could sit in the airport departures area and drink by and not get the flight.

Lol that may be the saddest thing i've ever heard (and defo no one did this to be fair).

El_Duderino 09

showpony1 wrote: »

Lol that may be the saddest thing i've ever heard (and defo no one did this to be fair).

A link to the article was posted in this thread - by people who were championing the idea that people were getting around the rules. Hard to imagine that people
thought it was clever to get around the rules like that.

It’s the difference of a few weeks. A couple of weeks ago there were posters advocating for opening the pubs! And ina few weeks they’ll be back advocating for the pubs being open the whole time.

They’re often conspiracy theorists as part of the argument to open the pubs, but they’re on record in this very thread.

YFlyer

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It was in the stats published recently. I don’t have it to hand. I’ll have a look.

Edit: the data came from Public Health England and it wasn’t the location where people actually got covid. It’s the places people had been in the days before testing positive but it’s not conclusive.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-11-19/covid-supermarkets-revealed-as-place-visitors-and-workers-are-most-likely-to-be-exposed-to-coronavirus

Why did you want to know?

I'm quite sure a large percentage of the adult population go to a supermarket at least once a week.

El_Duderino 09

YFlyer wrote: »

I'm quite sure a large percentage of the adult population go to a supermarket at least once a week.

Ok. What’s your point? It’s not where people definitely caught covid as I said in the first post. I’ve corrected what I said in the post above.

doublejobbing 2

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Extremely sobering figures coming out of Ireland tonight. I presume even the most foolhardy 'open the pubs' bore must now admit that was a supremely stupid and self-centred thing to be advocating for back in November and December? Lads getting maudlin about some fat man pouring them a pint of plain in the local while they watch Fulham vs Doncaster Rovers in the FA Cup.

The decision to open hospitality at all was a serious error of judgement, and the figures would have been even worse if we had allowed Vinny Vinter to open his doors to every sort of soak, lush, and rummy.

Any proof that the pubs were the primary vector for this? Even if they were it could be argued the government got it arseways- keep the pubs open from when they did open, let us all socialise in our usual groups (couples, two or three friends) then shut down as Christmas approached. Rather than opening in the timeframe that people who don't go to the pub often through the year like to get out, plus work drinks.

The public have lost trust and stopped caring, or believing. I turned down three pub invites that probably would have brought me into contact with 20 people. I turned them down reluctantly and said I had a prior engagement- real reason was I didn't want to infect my now ageing parents on Xmas Day, but I didn't dare actually mention this as at this stage public distrust is such you would be labelled a sap for still believing the whole thing.

Maybe Dr Holohan should have been more vocal in demanding that flights be completely halted for people returning from the US, UK and Europe.

Nah. Course he wasn't.

As we type, the people who brought it from the UK are returning back there, while plenty of people are carrying it back from Lithuania, Romania etc ready to start work across the country tomorrow.

Holohan hasn't said a word about this. Still banging on with the 2% related to foreign travel no doubt.

El_Duderino 09

doublejobbing 2 wrote: »

Any proof that the pubs were the primary vector for this?...

Why would the pubs need to be the primary vector? Schools and supermarkets are likely to account for higher numbers of transmissions than pubs. But supermarkets are essential and schools are essential to the economy by allowing parents to go to work. Pubs are nice to have but are not essential so they should be closed.

We know there will be transmissions from essential business and environments like supermarkets and schools. Supermarkets are completely ring fenced and schools are kept open if possible. So you have to clamp down harder on the other areas which aren’t essential. It’s unfortunate that pubs are closed as we all miss the pub, but it’s all pretty simple.

PommieBast

doublejobbing 2 wrote: »

The public have lost trust and stopped caring, or believing. I turned down three pub invites that probably would have brought me into contact with 20 people. I turned them down reluctantly and said I had a prior engagement- real reason was I didn't want to infect my now ageing parents on Xmas Day, but I didn't dare actually mention this as at this stage public distrust is such you would be labelled a sap for still believing the whole thing.

Pretty much the same reason why I've kept to the straight and narrow. The government stats are that only 2-4% of infections in my age group result in hospitalisation let alone death, so if I stayed in Ireland where I have no family there is no real incentive to stick to rules.


The "six weeks to save christmas" was a big mistake as that was an open invite for christmas as usual.

Stheno

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It was in the stats published recently. I don’t have it to hand. I’ll have a look.

Edit: the data came from Public Health England and it wasn’t the location where people actually got covid. It’s the places people had been in the days before testing positive but it’s not conclusive.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-11-19/covid-supermarkets-revealed-as-place-visitors-and-workers-are-most-likely-to-be-exposed-to-coronavirus

Why did you want to know?

Because there hasn't been any real data proving supermarkets are high risk

I was looking for you to back up.your statement which you have not done

pottokblue

I was last in pub 19/12/2020 and am looking forward to going to pub again sometime 2021. I was talking to my southafrican cousin who has an offwork dose of C19 and in Southafrica they have curfew and no alcohol sales. If our gov was serious we should try a circuitbreaker 3-week prohibtion era close offliences as nonessential and shut the aclohol supermarket sections and see if it helps reduce spread...

El_Duderino 09

Stheno wrote: »

Because there hasn't been any real data proving supermarkets are high risk

I was looking for you to back up.your statement which you have not done

Ok. Supermarkets are probably very low rate of transmissions but they’re high traffic areas so probably account for a relatively large number of transmissions. They have mitigations like sterilising stations, wearing masks and high ceilings. and usually plenty of space. In any case they’re essential so nobody is suggesting closing them even if they account for a relatively high number of transmissions.

Pubs, on the other hand are not essential and we all know why it’s sensible to close pubs.

El_Duderino 09

pottokblue wrote: »

I was last in pub 19/12/2020 and am looking forward to going to pub again sometime 2021. I was talking to my southafrican cousin who has an offwork dose of C19 and in Southafrica they have curfew and no alcohol sales. If our gov was serious we should try a circuitbreaker 3-week prohibtion era close offliences as nonessential and shut the aclohol supermarket sections and see if it helps reduce spread...

South Africa has unique reasons for banning alcohol sales which I don’t think really apply here. They said they were doing it to save the hospitals because of the high number of hospitalisations related to people being drunk. Not sure if that’s necessary here.

pottokblue

Like mandatory maskwearing it could be a mandatory two week dry january it might achieve ****all or it might help. Who knows unless they try it. Plenty of alcohol admissions in Dublin EDs precorona and alcohol at times plays a role in selfharm and domestic abuse. Nevertheless I think that pubs should have been reopened back in June 2021 but am hopeful of a march 21 pub pints.

PTH2009

So many factors that go against Pubs of any kind opening

Feb- we have the 6 nations
Mar- Paddys day, start of the GAA national leagues
Apr- Easter and GAA championships
May/June/July- Sunmer pints, end of the soccer, GAA, concerts, holidays etc
Aug/Sep- Holidays, students returning to college etc

Handy scapegoats for the anti drinkers and NPHET will never recommend pubs of any description to open

El_Duderino 09

PTH2009 wrote: »

So many factors that go against Pubs of any kind opening

Feb- we have the 6 nations
Mar- Paddys day, start of the GAA national leagues
Apr- Easter and GAA championships
May/June/July- Sunmer pints, end of the soccer, GAA, concerts, holidays etc
Aug/Sep- Holidays, students returning to college etc

Handy scapegoats for the anti drinkers and NPHET will never recommend pubs of any description to open

I’m neither anti-drink nor part of NPHET, and I love going to the pub but I’m not in favour of opening them right now. Once it’s sensible to open pubs again, I’ll be in favour of it.

It’s not a big anti-drink conspiracy.

AnFeirmeoir

People partied too much.(not most of us, but enough) Simple as that. Shopping, drinking and meeting up.
Not goverments fault or foreigners or nphed.. our own fault.
Every time you meet someone you increase risk.
Hospitality pushing to be open was/is irresponsible even though it is very hard on their industry.
All we can do now is what we are supposed to be doing all along.
I think schools should be closed. Maybe open for leaving certs.

weldoninhio

pottokblue wrote: »

I was last in pub 19/12/2020 and am looking forward to going to pub again sometime 2021. I was talking to my southafrican cousin who has an offwork dose of C19 and in Southafrica they have curfew and no alcohol sales. If our gov was serious we should try a circuitbreaker 3-week prohibtion era close offliences as nonessential and shut the aclohol supermarket sections and see if it helps reduce spread...

And pack the hospitals with alkies going into toxic shock. Excellent idea.

the rock29

Fine keep them closed what about staff who need there jobs are they going to extend the pup payment till people get back to work

hynesie08

the rock29 wrote: »

Fine keep them closed what about staff who need there jobs are they going to extend the pup payment till people get back to work

Yes, they've already announced it's extended till the end of February.....

PTH2009

One thing about the PUP is some are actually earning more

Once the vulnerable are vaccinated open the pubs with the restrictions. Keep the early closes til later in the year

the rock29

And if they don't more people on the dole

Bass Reeves

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Why would the pubs need to be the primary vector? Schools and supermarkets are likely to account for higher numbers of transmissions than pubs. But supermarkets are essential and schools are essential to the economy by allowing parents to go to work. Pubs are nice to have but are not essential so they should be closed.

We know there will be transmissions from essential business and environments like supermarkets and schools. Supermarkets are completely ring fenced and schools are kept open if possible. So you have to clamp down harder on the other areas which aren’t essential. It’s unfortunate that pubs are closed as we all miss the pub, but it’s all pretty simple.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ok. Supermarkets are probably very low rate of transmissions but they’re high traffic areas so probably account for a relatively large number of transmissions. They have mitigations like sterilising stations, wearing masks and high ceilings. and usually plenty of space. In any case they’re essential so nobody is suggesting closing them even if they account for a relatively high number of transmissions.

Pubs, on the other hand are not essential and we all know why it’s sensible to close pubs.

You are posting rubbish. During October/November we had schools, construction, supermarkets etc open. We got daily numbers down to below two hundred. Guess what we opened up non essential retail restaurants and pub. People partied like crazy.

You only have to open your eyes to see what happened. Supermarkets had f@@k all to do with the expodential rise in numbers we saw over the last week. What happened was some people partied like f@@k and went home for Christmas dinner. CIVID us all.over the place at present and that is down to two things pubs and people meeting for Christmas dinner

Stop trying to muddy the water with rubbish speculation

El_Duderino 09

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You are posting rubbish facts. During October/November

What’s during October/November?

Aongus Von Bismarck

My word, the numbers today are horrific and deeply worrying. I think it puts to bed the frankly idiotic idea that 'wet pubs' should have been allowed open. Hospitality shouldn't have been allowed open at all tbh, and it's a certainty that figures would be even worse if even Tom, Dick, and Harry was allowed waltz into some poorly insulated hellhole for a pint of tasteless lager.

Tucker tunsel

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

My word, the numbers today are horrific and deeply worrying. I think it puts to bed the frankly idiotic idea that 'wet pubs' should have been allowed open. Hospitality shouldn't have been allowed open at all tbh, and it's a certainty that figures would be even worse if even Tom, Dick, and Harry was allowed waltz into some poorly insulated hellhole for a pint of tasteless lager.

My local town has 3 wet pubs and the local hotel

As the hotel was allowed open people were all stuck in the one location with it jammed to the bleeding rafters.

Would it not of been better people were all spread out once the decision was made the hotel could sell alcohol ?

Tucker tunsel

Tucker tunsel wrote: »

My local town has 3 wet pubs and the local hotel

As the hotel was allowed open people were all stuck in the one location with it jammed to the bleeding rafters.

Would it not of been better people were all spread out once the decision was made the hotel could sell alcohol ?

We’re you all rounded up and shoved into the hotel bar?

SteM

Tucker tunsel wrote: »

My local town has 3 wet pubs and the local hotel

As the hotel was allowed open people were all stuck in the one location with it jammed to the bleeding rafters.

Would it not of been better people were all spread out once the decision was made the hotel could sell alcohol ?

Would have been even better if the hotel hadn't allowed itself to get jammed to the rafters or people had a bit of common sense and gone home when it started to get busy.

Doesn't matter what was open if the places that were open were breaking the rules and the people inside them didn't give a ****.

Tucker tunsel

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

We’re you all rounded up and shoved into the hotel bar?

I never said I was in the hotel nor did I say that people were rounded up and shoved into the hotel????

I am just saying what happened and what does happen once one establishment opens that serves alcohol while others are shut.

Have you difficulty reading ??

Tucker tunsel

Tucker tunsel wrote: »

I never said I was in the hotel nor did I say that people were rounded up and shoved into the hotel????

I am just saying what happened and what does happen once one establishment opens that serves alcohol while others are shut.

Have you difficulty reading ??

If you were that worried about everyone being in the once place instead of spread among four then, I dunno, maybe stay at home? You’re talking about everyone going to the hotel like it was the only option. The hotel is the main fault there too if they allowed a crowd in on top of each other.

Tucker tunsel

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

If you were that worried about everyone being in the once place instead of spread among four then, I dunno, maybe stay at home? You’re talking about everyone going to the hotel like it was the only option. The hotel is the main fault there too if they allowed a crowd in on top of each other.

Again I wasn't in the hotel. It's.common knowledge as cases came from it .....