Opening of "No-Food" pubs pushed out again

MrMusician18

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Anyone who doesn't strictly adhere to the NPHET-FFFG rules are gonna have to deal with you is it?

You went to town on Susieblue, someone who said she was having a few pals around for a little soiree...It was none of your business to jump on your high horse and judge her or anyone for it...
Once you stick to the rules yourself then let the authorities deal with those who don't.

If you don't want people to comment on it then don't post about on a discussion forum. I would've thought that obvious. It's stooping pretty low to groundlessly accuse me of only making such comments because she is a woman.

I'm not going around policing the rules -that is indeed for the authorities. But obviously I'm not going to endorse hosting parties that breach the rules and that make this ****ty situation last even longer either. Nor am I going to accept to the BS justification surrounding it as well.

The Nal

joeguevara wrote: »

Firstly it is 16th in Europe and not third. https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/food/2020/0914/1165038-dublin-pizza-spot-named-in-top-20-pizzerias-in-europe/


Pizzas take 15 minutes in the oven and probably less than 5 minutes to prepare. Its the prep work in the sauce, the proper prooving of the dough, and sourcing of the best ingredients is all that it takes. There is no magic complicated production process. Also, the actual oven that is woodfired and not an electric or gas conveyor belt.

Those woodfired ovens get to 500c, I have one. The pizzas take between 60 and 90 seconds to cook. You just need one person making the pizzas (2 minutes for someone who knows what they're at) and one person cooking (a trained monkey could do it) and you can do 30 or 40 pizzas an hour easily. Pay some student 15 quid an hour to be a runner to Toners and O'Donaghues. People can eat out of the box. Easy.

Just find O'Ds on twitter bitching about it a little odd. Love that pub.

hetuzozaho

joeguevara wrote: »

Firstly it is 16th in Europe and not third. https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/food/2020/0914/1165038-dublin-pizza-spot-named-in-top-20-pizzerias-in-europe/


Pizzas take 15 minutes in the oven and probably less than 5 minutes to prepare. Its the prep work in the sauce, the proper prooving of the dough, and sourcing of the best ingredients is all that it takes. There is no magic complicated production process. Also, the actual oven that is woodfired and not an electric or gas conveyor belt.

15mins... sounds like frozen pizza

MOH

The Nal wrote: »

I think we're beyond taking something thats proposed 3 or 4 weeks into the future as gospel.

It is that straightforward by the way. Cirellos are crying out for business, as is the pub. Customers want to go to the pub to drink, people like pints, people like pizza, Cirellos will deliver.....

Toners are doing it.

Wow, hindsight is wonderful.
You claimed that pubs should have done it in June. At which time they weren't "beyond taking something thats proposed 3 or 4 weeks as gospel".

It's not remotely that straightforward "by the way" (30 seconds googling). You can't just spontaneously decide you're going to start serving food to customers and do it the next day.

I suspect a lot of the pubs currently serving food are in breach of food safety regulations (and, ironically, endangering the health of customers) but even this government isn't going to risk going around and fining/closing pubs for breaches right now.

Yet again, the ones actually following the rules are the ones who are suffering. Pretty much par for the course in this banana republic.

The Nal

MOH wrote: »

Wow, hindsight is wonderful.
You claimed that pubs should have done it in June. At which time they weren't "beyond taking something thats proposed 3 or 4 weeks as gospel".

It's not remotely that straightforward "by the way" (30 seconds googling). You can't just spontaneously decide you're going to start serving food to customers and do it the next day.

I suspect a lot of the pubs currently serving food are in breach of food safety regulations (and, ironically, endangering the health of customers) but even this government isn't going to risk going around and fining/closing pubs for breaches right now.

Yet again, the ones actually following the rules are the ones who are suffering. Pretty much par for the course in this banana republic.

Technically its not that simple, but it is. Lots of pubs in the country are just putting bags of fish and chips on tables for €9. Depends how well you get on with the local gardai.

As soon as they announced the pubs were closed that didnt serve food, publicans should've been on the case. I know a couple who did it.

MOH

The Nal wrote: »

Technically its not that simple, but it is. Lots of pubs in the country are just putting bags of fish and chips on tables for €9. Depends how well you get on with the local gardai.

As soon as they announced the pubs were closed that didnt serve food, publicans should've been on the case. I know a couple who did it.

Ah right. So we're not actually talking about public health or pubs being allowed to open safely in accordance with the law. You're saying that pubs which couldn't open without breaking one law should get around that by breaking other laws, as long as they could trust the local gardai to ignore this?

By "on the case" you presumably mean publicans should have sent a few crates of beer around to the local station?

Sure then why bother with the food at all? If you're on *really* good terms with the local gardai, you could just open regardless and pretend to be insisting everyone orders food. There's definitely a few doing that. It's not exactly a model to be lauded.

ArmaniJeanss

The Nal wrote: »

Technically its not that simple, but it is. Lots of pubs in the country are just putting bags of fish and chips on tables for €9.

There must be insurance/health&safety issues there.
Who's ultimately responsible if I chew on a loose bit of metal in a pizza? I ordered it in the pub and that it came from somewhere else is no concern of mine.

But presumably the pubs insurance company will say that the premium/policy doesn't cover food offerings. And the chippers insurance will point out that I never made a purchase from them.

rubadub

MOH wrote: »

It's not remotely that straightforward "by the way" (30 seconds googling). You can't just spontaneously decide you're going to start serving food to customers and do it the next day.

what is the story with pubs selling bags of crisps & peanuts? do they have to follow the exact same rules?

If not then I expect the same would be happening if somebody got metal in a pizza or a packet of crisps or back when you might (rarely) see an open bowl of peanuts laid out.

If they do then does cream count as food? i.e. some cocktails, or slices of lemon etc.

MOH

rubadub wrote: »

what is the story with pubs selling bags of crisps & peanuts? do they have to follow the exact same rules?

If not then I expect the same would be happening if somebody got metal in a pizza or a packet of crisps or back when you might (rarely) see an open bowl of peanuts laid out.

If they do then does cream count as food? i.e. some cocktails, or slices of lemon etc.

I don't know, you'd have to research it or ask the FSAI? It just seemed highly unlikely to me that a business could suddenly decide to start serving meals overnight without some kind of health requirements, I spent 30 seconds googling it and posted the most relevant link.

The Nal

MOH wrote: »

Ah right. So we're not actually talking about public health or pubs being allowed to open safely in accordance with the law. You're saying that pubs which couldn't open without breaking one law should get around that by breaking other laws, as long as they could trust the local gardai to ignore this?

By "on the case" you presumably mean publicans should have sent a few crates of beer around to the local station?

Sure then why bother with the food at all? If you're on *really* good terms with the local gardai, you could just open regardless and pretend to be insisting everyone orders food. There's definitely a few doing that. It's not exactly a model to be lauded.

Toners are open and serving pizzas from Cirellos down the road.

Open the Pubs

The Nal wrote: »

Toners are open and serving pizzas from Cirellos down the road.

Is there many customers? It's quite big out the back. Assume with footfall massively and lack of sport there might not be many in.

weldoninhio

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

There must be insurance/health&safety issues there.
Who's ultimately responsible if I chew on a loose bit of metal in a pizza? I ordered it in the pub and that it came from somewhere else is no concern of mine.

But presumably the pubs insurance company will say that the premium/policy doesn't cover food offerings. And the chippers insurance will point out that I never made a purchase from them.

In my local you make the order from the chipper yourself, so it is you ordering.

MOH

The Nal wrote: »

Toners are open and serving pizzas from Cirellos down the road.

That's nice. And maybe they went through whatever processes are required to legally serve food.

Which is irrelevant to your claim that every pub should have just started serving food overnight in June regardless, because they should have known they wouldn't be allowed to open for 3 months.

The Nal

Open the Pubs wrote: »

Is there many customers? It's quite big out the back. Assume with footfall massively and lack of sport there might not be many in.

Toners are advertising that theyre showing the Leinster match on Saturday. Sports, booze, pizza. Obviously with social distancing etc capacity is hugely reduced but they'll be busy.

MOH wrote: »

That's nice. And maybe they went through whatever processes are required to legally serve food.

Which is irrelevant to your claim that every pub should have just started serving food overnight in June regardless, because they should have known they wouldn't be allowed to open for 3 months.

As soon as no food pubs were announced, pubs could have become a food pub. And its easily done. As below.

weldoninhio wrote: »

In my local you make the order from the chipper yourself, so it is you ordering.

The premises reserves the right to allow you to consume outside food. Or not.

Any food offering will be required to be a substantial meal (as defined by the Intoxicating Liquor Act 1962: 'the meal is such as might be expected to be served as a main midday or evening meal or as a main course in either such meal') and will be required to be of a kind for which it would be reasonable to charge not less than €9.”

So nothing saying you can't order a 9 quid pizza in and be served that as your €9 meal.

robbiezero

weldoninhio wrote: »

In my local you make the order from the chipper yourself, so it is you ordering.

Same in mine. Was also allowed by them pre-pandemic.

weldoninhio

robbiezero wrote: »

Same in mine. Was also allowed by them pre-pandemic.

It’s grand. The chipper doesn’t charge delivery to the Pub either.

MOH

The Nal wrote: »

As soon as no food pubs were announced, pubs could have become a food pub. And its easily done.

No, it's not

The Nal wrote: »

Depends how well you get on with the local gardai.

Why would you need to get on well with the local gardai if it's so easily done?

The Nal

MOH wrote: »

No, it's not

Tis, mate of mine owns a pub and did it.

MOH wrote: »

Why would you need to get on well with the local gardai if it's so easily done?

Because its a grey area and this is Ireland. Some will allow a bag of chips on a pub table and some will start asking questions.

Richard Hillman

There have been 5 outbreaks attributed to Pub-Restaurants. Five. Don't tell me this isn't an anti-alcohol thing.

Open the Pubs

The Nal wrote: »

Toners are advertising that theyre showing the Leinster match on Saturday. Sports, booze, pizza. Obviously with social distancing etc capacity is hugely reduced but they'll be busy.

Isn't there talk now the food pubs and restaurants in Dublin are being closed today by Government?

The Nal

Open the Pubs wrote: »

Isn't there talk now the food pubs and restaurants in Dublin are being closed today by Government?

Yeah, outdoor areas only allowed.

hetuzozaho

Richard Hillman wrote: »

There have been 5 outbreaks attributed to Pub-Restaurants. Five. Don't tell me this isn't an anti-alcohol thing.

That's just an issue with the data. Not proof that it's not spreading in pub restaurants

Open the Pubs

hetuzozaho wrote: »

That's just an issue with the data. Not proof that it's not spreading in pub restaurants

There is no evidence of this, the onus is absolutely not on pubs/restaurants to prove they are they 'not' spreading the virus. Those who accuse them must show evidence, they can't do this.

hetuzozaho

Open the Pubs wrote: »

There is no evidence of this, the onus is absolutely not on pubs/restaurants to prove they are they 'not' spreading the virus. Those who accuse them must show evidence, they can't do this.

I never said the onus was on them.

ShooterSF

weldoninhio wrote: »

In my local you make the order from the chipper yourself, so it is you ordering.

But then is your local serving food? I'm pretty sure that was the requirement. Do you have to produce a receipt over 9 euro each to order drinks? Seems dodgy tbh

mountgomery burns

ShooterSF wrote: »

But then is your local serving food? I'm pretty sure that was the requirement. Do you have to produce a receipt over 9 euro each to order drinks? Seems dodgy tbh

But it is ultimately allowed. It's not ideal but sure that's what months of closure drives you too.
There's nothing in the guidelines about food having to be prepared on site.

There was a more sensible approach to adopt from the outset but they neglected that. Now they are in a position where they are opening them while the reported cases are reaching their highest levels since April end. How daft will they look if cases escalate even further with outbreaks established from pubs? I doubt people will see it as vindication of the continued closure when reported cases were some days in single digits.

It's a tightrope they are walking, but they started the blade on the rope back in mid summer.

cadaliac

ShooterSF wrote: »

But then is your local serving food? I'm pretty sure that was the requirement. Do you have to produce a receipt over 9 euro each to order drinks? Seems dodgy tbh

I guess this isn't being prosecuted as it isn't the crux of having food while drinking.
Yes, it is a technicality but people are still eating while drinking and thus achieving the goal.
Therefore why split hairs?

MOH

Open the Pubs wrote: »

Isn't there talk now the food pubs and restaurants in Dublin are being closed today by Government?

Level 3 of the so-called "plan" has "additional restrictions for indoor dining", while level 4 has no indoor dining, takeaway only or outdoor dining for a max of 15 people. At which point you'd think a lot of places might decide they're better off closing the doors and furloughing staff onto the covid payment.

From the sounds of things they're going to put restaurants at level 4, while pubs will remain somewhere beyond level 5 (where they'd at least be able to sell takeaway drink), while Dublin as a whole is officially placed at level 3.875.

(On a totally unrelated note, does anyone know what PR company the government said they'd hired to manage the plan rollout? )

The Nal

MOH wrote: »

(On a totally unrelated note, does anyone know what PR company the government said they'd hired to manage the plan rollout? )

I don't know their name but this guy is the CEO

mountgomery burns

The Nal wrote: »

I don't know their name but this guy is the CEO

Multi Billion dollar US firm, I don't think I'd blame them for this to be honest.

More likely it is the inept delivery of those they are providing the service too. I mean ultimately, the government devised this plan that they couldn't adhere to for even a few hours.

It was Teneo by the way that were advising them on it.

The White Wolf

Hmmmm, where is that clown that told me wet pubs adapting to the food requirements wouldn't cause an a dilemma for the government. They outsmarted the government and they've typically responded with a bit of political heavy-handedness

Feel very sorry for the people that are going to lose their jobs. This government will have a lot to answer for in time.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

The White Wolf wrote: »

Feel very sorry for the people that are going to lose their jobs. This government will have a lot to answer for in time.

No they won't, they'll just blame NEPHT.

MOH

The White Wolf wrote: »

Hmmmm, where is that clown that told me wet pubs adapting to the food requirements wouldn't cause an a dilemma for the government. They outsmarted the government and they've typically responded with a bit of political heavy-handedness

Feel very sorry for the people that are going to lose their jobs. This government will have a lot to answer for in time.

It only struck me earlier that in one way the requirement for pubs to maintain food receipts might have been a clever way of trying to shut that down.

Normally pubs selling food would have a raft of health and hygiene requirements. I still find it difficult to believe, but a lot of people seem to think that people bringing/ordering in their own food somehow exempts the pubs from any of this.

But if that was true, then the requirement for pubs to keep records of food served would leave such pubs in a quandary: if the customer orders/brings the food themselves then the pub can't show any evidence that they served the customer food; but if the pub orders the food and supplies it to the customer, then it's a lot harder to distance themselves from the hygiene regs.

Although that would require a level of joined up thinking and enforcement that's highly unlikely to exist.

freak scence

ShooterSF wrote: »

But then is your local serving food? I'm pretty sure that was the requirement. Do you have to produce a receipt over 9 euro each to order drinks? Seems dodgy tbh

who gives a f uck

copeyhagen

freak scence wrote: »

who gives a f uck

this stinks of covid related infections.

/s

joeguevara

MOH wrote: »

It only struck me earlier that in one way the requirement for pubs to maintain food receipts might have been a clever way of trying to shut that down.

Normally pubs selling food would have a raft of health and hygiene requirements. I still find it difficult to believe, but a lot of people seem to think that people bringing/ordering in their own food somehow exempts the pubs from any of this.

But if that was true, then the requirement for pubs to keep records of food served would leave such pubs in a quandary: if the customer orders/brings the food themselves then the pub can't show any evidence that they served the customer food; but if the pub orders the food and supplies it to the customer, then it's a lot harder to distance themselves from the hygiene regs.

Although that would require a level of joined up thinking and enforcement that's highly unlikely to exist.

It seems to be constantly misunderstood what happened when pubs that could serve a substantial meal could reopen. There was three different categories of food serving pubs. Firstly the ones that always served food. These would have a restaurant certificate which is renewed in the district court at the same time as their liquor licence. If food preparation is on site they would require planning permission and regular visits from Environmental Health Officer. The second category is pubs that didn't serve food who started. Out of nowhere Leo announced an exemption from holding a restaurant certificate, planning for a kitchen or food preparation area. It is unclear whether they were a priority for EHO, but out of three pubs I know the owners, who started preparing food on site, none of them have been inspected. I remember at the time I did a search for the legislation which Leo promised would be enacted to allow the exemption from not having a restaurant certificate but could not find it. The third category for pubs who get delivered in is exactly the same as category 2 as they are serving food on site. In normal situations they would still require a certificate and would be required to ensure that there was no food safety risk. As food should be eaten when delivered, and not stored on site this is relatively straightforward. Should ensure where it is prepared complies with food safety requirements.

So there are exemption from normal circumstances but doesn't exempt from ensuring it is safe for consumption. In reality it was bizarre that safety for the public was overlooked in order to shoe horn pubs as restaurants.

The White Wolf

MOH wrote: »

It only struck me earlier that in one way the requirement for pubs to maintain food receipts might have been a clever way of trying to shut that down.

Normally pubs selling food would have a raft of health and hygiene requirements. I still find it difficult to believe, but a lot of people seem to think that people bringing/ordering in their own food somehow exempts the pubs from any of this.

But if that was true, then the requirement for pubs to keep records of food served would leave such pubs in a quandary: if the customer orders/brings the food themselves then the pub can't show any evidence that they served the customer food; but if the pub orders the food and supplies it to the customer, then it's a lot harder to distance themselves from the hygiene regs.

Although that would require a level of joined up thinking and enforcement that's highly unlikely to exist.

My local invested a lot in order to reopen; new kitchen, the hiring of two lounge staff, two chefs and a general restructuring of the place to ensure the rules were being satisfied....and yes there was receipts for food. TBH they probably went beyond what was practical in order to serve the community, all under the false assurances from the government.

Yet it still wasn't enough and they'll likely never open again now.

As I said earlier some fool on here that was posting regularly about any pub adapting would be fine has gone missing all of a sudden, I wonder why.

joeguevara

The White Wolf wrote: »

My local invested a lot in order to reopen; new kitchen, the hiring of two lounge staff, two chefs and a general restructuring of the place to ensure the rules were being satisfied....and yes there was receipts for food. TBH they probably went beyond what was practical in order to serve the community, all under the false assurances from the government.

Yet it still wasn't enough and they'll likely never open again now.

As I said earlier some fool on here that was posting regularly about any pub adapting would be fine has gone missing all of a sudden, I wonder why.

In all fairness, after all of that investment, if 3 weeks means they will never open again, they should have had a less ambitious investment in order to serve food. It’s crazy for any pub that doesn’t have a food over to blow that in the middle of the highest unemployment rate we have had in decades.

Opening a food offering is one of the riskiest things in the best of times. Hiring two chefs and a new kitchen is bizarre.

The White Wolf

joeguevara wrote: »

In all fairness, after all of that investment, if 3 weeks means they will never open again, they should have had a less ambitious investment in order to serve food. It’s crazy for any pub that doesn’t have a food over to blow that in the middle of the highest unemployment rate we have had in decades.

Opening a food offering is one of the riskiest things in the best of times. Hiring two chefs and a new kitchen is bizarre.

New kitchen is not all that bizarre for a traditionally "wet" pub with aspirations. Two chefs alternating isn't bizarre either if you think one should be on 7 days a week.

IAMAMORON

I have given up on going for a pint now until Christmas.

I saw the Schadenfruede in shít for brainses eye in his speech at tea time yesterday.

He will never be forgiven for this either. He is the king of the ban, I cannot stand him and no longer will. Throw him off the back of the boat and tell no one. It is his turn.

gmisk

Hunky Monster wrote: »

No they won't, they'll just blame NEPHT.

Ah sure as long as they aren't blaming NPHET...

ShooterSF

freak scence wrote: »

who gives a f uck

As someone who finally gets to go back to work next week with pubs reopening, I do. It annoys me to see other places dodging the rules and possibly setting the industry back. We are supposed to be showing we can self regulate and follow the rules. So many pubs in the country crying out to let them open and let them show that they can be responsible and we have that chance Monday.

freak scence

ShooterSF wrote: »

As someone who finally gets to go back to work next week with pubs reopening, I do. It annoys me to see other places dodging the rules and possibly setting the industry back. We are supposed to be showing we can self regulate and follow the rules. So many pubs in the country crying out to let them open and let them show that they can be responsible and we have that chance Monday.

got laid off yesterday so dry up

John O.Groats

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I have given up on going for a pint now until Christmas.

I saw the Schadenfruede in shít for brainses eye in his speech at tea time yesterday.

He will never be forgiven for this either. He is the king of the ban, I cannot stand him and no longer will. Throw him off the back of the boat and tell no one. It is his turn.

Judging by this ranting gibberish I would say you have been indulging today already whether in a pub or elsewhere.

bloopy

joeguevara wrote: »

In all fairness, after all of that investment, if 3 weeks means they will never open again, they should have had a less ambitious investment in order to serve food. It’s crazy for any pub that doesn’t have a food over to blow that in the middle of the highest unemployment rate we have had in decades.

Opening a food offering is one of the riskiest things in the best of times. Hiring two chefs and a new kitchen is bizarre.

Yea. **** that idiot, right?

ShooterSF

freak scence wrote: »

got laid off yesterday so dry up

I'm sorry to hear that

bucketybuck

John O.Groats wrote: »

You are an arrogant ****ing arsehole who crows about putting people who don`t agree with your blinkered opinions " back in their box". ****ing pathetic.

John O.Groats wrote: »

Can`t wait for what? To come back gloating like you said you were going to do on numerous occasions ? ****ing pathetic. if you are so sick of this country why don`t you just **** off to Vegas like you said you were going to do months ago. The sooner the ****ing better.

John O.Groats wrote: »

This entire post is complete absolute utter bollocks. You really don`t have a clue do you? Have you done anything about getting your other issues sorted out yet?

John O.Groats wrote: »

As you don`t give a **** about anyone other than yourself which is what you have stated several times here then you have zero credibility when talking about BS. You need to get your issues sorted out ASAP.

John O.Groats wrote: »

If you can`t see that then you are delusional.

John O.Groats wrote: »

If other absolute ****ing morons do that then the restrictions will be extended and prolonged for much longer than they need to be. But then that is exactly what you and your puppet masters want to happen. Your agenda is very clear.

John O.Groats wrote: »

****ing pathetic.

John O.Groats wrote: »

Mainly the mentally deranged ones. So that being the case may we expect you to be travelling there soon?

John O.Groats wrote: »

That must have been one of the very few times your controller let you off the leash.

John O.Groats wrote: »

No surprise to read that. Typical of you and your ****ed up mentality.

John O.Groats wrote: »

Why don`t you **** off back to Italy or wherever the **** you were last month hopefully on a permanent basis and stop endangering Irish people`s lives with your absolutely disgraceful selfish behaviour. As an added bonus you and your string pullers would be able to find a whole new set of authority figures to direct your regurgitated hysterical agenda driven rants at. Definitely win-win for all concerned.

John O.Groats wrote: »

If necessary I will take a permanent ban from the forum or the site and guess what? It will be worth it if it means characters like you can be shown up for what you really are. Either way should I choose to I will be back in one form or another before too long.

John O.Groats wrote: »

I don`t particularly give a flying **** what your view is l but as I have now mentioned for the 2nd time regarding this proposal I actually have the same opinion as you on the fact it will not be a realistic option. Got it now pal?

John O.Groats wrote: »

Clinically dead ? No? it would seem however that quite a few are brain dead though I very much doubt that Covid can be blamed for that.

John O.Groats wrote: »

You have reached a new level of delusion tonight if you seriously believe that mumbo jumbo. Congratulations.......................:rolleyes:.

John O.Groats wrote: »

Ah sure God love you. You mean you had to wait for a few minutes for someone to come to your table and you had to walk a few extra metres to go to the toilet? Oh the outrage.:rolleyes: It`s a disgrace Joe so it is.:rolleyes:

John O.Groats wrote: »

Agreed. Absolute dumbasses. You couldn`t make this **** up.

John O.Groats wrote: »

I think you need to up the dosage of your medication.

John O.Groats wrote: »

Judging by this ranting gibberish I would say you have been indulging today already whether in a pub or elsewhere.

You are an angry little man.

PTH2009

Some pubs are choosing not to open until later in the month

At least this food ballax is down and dusted for now

John O.Groats

bucketybuck wrote: »

You are an angry little man.

Just like most of what you post your BS opinion of what I may or not be means sweet **** all to me.

bcklschaps

Great to finally have the "wet" pubs open again.

It's tough on the Dubs, but if they can't behave themselves then this is the price to pay. Maybe moral outtrage/peer pressure will curb the more recalcitrant element that ruined it for everybody else...

**Perhaps some of the recent posters on this thread could drop into their local hostelry and cool the heads a bit?