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2 single ovens and an induction hob?

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    #32
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,596 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Terminator. wrote: »
    With 2 ovens and a hob

    I'd be inclined to treat the 2nd oven as a separate appliance needing a separate connection

    Agreed, or you could have one circuit for the ovens and one for the hob.

    I think a pattern is emerging:)


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    #33
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    You are very wrong @2011 - the IET have explicitly stated that a separate oven and hob can be treated the same as a single cooker. Just admit you made a mistake.
    What do they say about 2 ovens and a hob?


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    #34
    YellowBucket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭YellowBucket


    You also have to look past the lowest common denominator in a design. Barely complying with the technical minimum requirements is often less than ideal and may be impractical.

    From a cost:benefit point of view, having two circuits supplying these devices makes a whole lot of sense.


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    #35
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,596 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    YellowBucket wrote: »
    You also have to look past the lowest common denominator in a design. Barely complying with the technical minimum requirements is often less than ideal and may be impractical.

    From a cost:benefit point of view, having two circuits supplying these devices makes a whole lot of sense.

    Agree 100%

    But you always get someone using the its worked fine up until now / my grandfather never needed earths / sure I replaced the fuse with a nail and its grand type arguments.


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    #36
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    'The first 10A of the rated current plus 30% of the remainder of the rated current plus 5A if a socket-outlet is incorporated in the control unit.'

    Therefore I = 10 + (30 (67-10)) /100 = 27.1A

    Hence, a 30 or 32A circuit is selected."[/I]

    The reality is that this works and has for decades - even on Christmas Day, and even with an induction hob.

    Great. So now the same premises adds in another oven. Obviously we can just ignore this load from the above calculation then, and connect to the same mcb, is that it? Or can they now add in as many ovens as they like, and claim its all one cooking appliance?


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    #37
    Terminator.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 73 ✭✭Terminator.


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Great. So now the same premises adds in another oven. Obviously we can just ignore this load from the above calculation then, and connect to the same mcb, is that it? Or can they now add in as many ovens as they like, and claim its all one cooking appliance?

    They might get away with it ,but the diversity calculation was for a single appliance and a single householder imo


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    #38
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,471 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    It really saddened me to read through this thread and see what amounts to a pi$$ing match between two masters of their trade.

    I know from previous threads that you are both highly skilled in this technical field.

    Get out of the octagon, acknowledge your own contribution and greatness and just add value.

    The simple answer would have been, prolly best to do another circuit for peace of mind.

    Now: I have 3 ovens, 2 showers, a heat pump ad a Tesla home charger: :D

    Keep safe and well.

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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    #39
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,596 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Incase you haven't noticed there have been many other contributors to this thread and nobody seems to be upset.

    It good to challenge and be challenged, that is how you learn. Bruthal, Stoner and Risteard have all disagreed with me many times, I don't take offence and yes, sometimes I am wrong (and have stated this more than once).

    I don't take issue with anything Risteard has posted on this thread. In fact I like that he posted a calculation from a reputable source, I just disagree with it for the reasons stated. I sure Risteard does excellent installation work and I think he has made some valuable contributions to discussions. So in summary there is no octagon for me.
    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    I have 3 ovens, 2 showers, a heat pump ad a Tesla home charger: :D

    According to my source in Gibirrovia you can feed them all from one circuit and call it diversity :D


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    #40
    Tuco88
    Registered Users Posts: 1,051 ✭✭✭Tuco88


    So a gas cooker it is then????


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    #41
    Terminator.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 73 ✭✭Terminator.


    Diversity isn't an exact science and it's easy enough to get caught out

    I've seen it happen where a kitchen gets a change of use and becomes effectively a commercial kitchen, cooker circuit and installation load increase

    https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/6.2.3.htm

    More diversity allowed for a household


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    #42
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,596 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Terminator. wrote: »
    Diversity isn't an exact science and it's easy enough to get caught out

    Very true, however diversity has to reflect the largest loading that is likely to occur.
    I've seen it happen where a kitchen gets a change of use and becomes effectively a commercial kitchen, cooker circuit and installation load increase

    I have seen it cause a heat tracing panel to go on fire on a site. Anther poster from this site was present with me at the time. A diversity factor was applied that did not take into account that all of the heat tracing would have to start from cold following a plant shutdown. For this reason we have to recalculate based on a diversity factor of 1. Typically heat tracing circuits in this plant took 4 hours to heat up before any stats switched any circuits off. It was a good lesson for me.
    https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/6.2.3.htm

    More diversity allowed for a household

    Values look realistic.


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    #43
    Terminator.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 73 ✭✭Terminator.


    Reminds me of another one:

    Back in the day ESB designed all electric homes and allowed for 8KW of NSH plus the GD load of panel heaters and appliances on a 63amp main fuse


    Problem was a lot of these places were holiday homes, people arrived and switched the lot on together.
    They had to change the design afterwards.


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    #44
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,596 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Terminator. wrote: »
    They had to change the design afterwards.

    Yes, I remember seeing a double pole 63A fuse used to deal with this.


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    #45
    Terminator.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 73 ✭✭Terminator.


    2011 wrote: »
    Yes, I remember seeing a double pole 63A fuse used to deal with this.

    That's right, it would be considered a bodge now.

    They put the GD and the NSH on the 2 poles and the tails were protected by the ESB fuse

    It came up on a slide at a verfication and testing course i was at .It was highlighted as a dangerous installation but that was actually the design at the time.


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    #46
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,596 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Terminator. wrote: »
    It was highlighted as a dangerous installation but that was actually the design at the time.

    Was it really dangerous though? Certainly in some cases but not always. It would depend on a number of factors such as the rating and characteristics of the ESB fuse and the size and length of the tails.


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    #47
    Terminator.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 73 ✭✭Terminator.


    2011 wrote: »
    Was it really dangerous though? Certainly in some cases but not always. It would depend on a number of factors such as the rating and characteristics of the ESB fuse and the size and length of the tails.

    Most likely not imo


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    #48
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    It really saddened me to read through this thread and see what amounts to a pi$$ing match between two masters of their trade..
    I think risteard was right for a hob and oven, although I prefer a more analytical view myself rather than quoting exact non flexible figures in books etc. But the addition of the second independent oven changes the setup to a minimum of 2 separate appliances, so the diversity for a hob and oven as a single cooker appliance can't realistically be applied, because now it's a hob and oven, plus another oven.

    Nothing wrong with posters posting differing views on such matters anyway imo.


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