The UK response - Part II - read OP

bob mcbob

Aegir wrote: »

In hind sight, maybe.

But then in hindsight, there was no need to build those extra hospitals either.

Hmmm hindsight - ok.

What we designed a centralised system where we cannot share detailed information with local healthcare workers responsible for containing the virus.

Enzokk

Aegir wrote: »

That argument works really well in the Atheist forum :rolleyes:

How do you propose someone provides proof that Dido Harding is waiting for direction from Cummings when he has purged anyone that speaks against him and anyone that opposes his and Johnson's view are chucked out of the party? Surely you could make the deduction that anyone still in a high profile position working with Johnson and Cummings are there because they will not rock the boat.

As for the hiring of Harding, luckily the UK has an Anti-Corruption Champion to look at how Dido Harding, a friend of Matt Hancock was hired to run the new Health Body without any experience in Public Health or epidemics or interviews to find the right person. She may be the right person, but we will now never know because there was no search done.

Step up John Penrose MP, husband of Dido Harding. You cannot be comfortable with this, right?

https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1295987845157486593?s=20

Enzokk

Aegir wrote: »

In hind sight, maybe.

But then in hindsight, there was no need to build those extra hospitals either.

I cannot believe that those in charge wasn't aware that adding 4000 new critical beds that require more resources than a ward was never going to be used because said resources wasn't available.

NHS workforce being ‘hollowed out’ by registered nurse shortages

In the first quarter of 2018-19, nurse vacancies reached 44,000. According to the report, this number could spiral to 100,000 in a decade.

The nursing crisis has been a major point of interest for political parties in the run up to the general election.

The Conservatives have promised 50,000 new nurses and Labour are committed to reinstating the nursing bursary.

Also, they didn't need the beds because they discharged people into care homes without proper care. I find it incredible that nobody who made these decisions has lost their jobs yet. NZ Health minister breaks lockdown rules and he loses his job, but now is not the time for international comparisons I suppose.

Joe_ Public

Aegir wrote: »

and is that still the case, or are you basing this on reports from April still?



Interesting read https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/06/29/chris-ham-the-government-should-give-local-leaders-control-over-nhs-test-and-trace/



But I guess she only did that because Dominic Harding told her to:rolleyes:

1. What has "still the case" got to do with it? We're talking about lucrative contracts that were awarded months ago, often to firms that had no apparent qualifications other than having the usual quota of old boy tory connections. While 1000s of others were just simply ignored. "Still the case" has zero relevance here.

2. A track and trace operation, talking about empowering local councils, that only started sharing data with them a few weeks back, IN AUGUST. A test and trace operation so brilliant and successful that some local councils decided to bin it and set up their own systems less than two weeks ago.

"Dominic Harrison, Blackburn with Darwen council's director of public health, said: "We are now developing our own local contact tracing system. The national system is simply not tracing enough cases and contacts fast enough."

Yep, nice going Dido. Time you had a promotion.

Enzokk

Enzokk wrote: »

How do you propose someone provides proof that Dido Harding is waiting for direction from Cummings when he has purged anyone that speaks against him and anyone that opposes his and Johnson's view are chucked out of the party? Surely you could make the deduction that anyone still in a high profile position working with Johnson and Cummings are there because they will not rock the boat.

maybe ask NHS_Susan she may know?

Enzokk wrote: »

As for the hiring of Harding, luckily the UK has an Anti-Corruption Champion to look at how Dido Harding, a friend of Matt Hancock was hired to run the new Health Body without any experience in Public Health or epidemics or interviews to find the right person. She may be the right person, but we will now never know because there was no search done.

Step up John Penrose MP, husband of Dido Harding. You cannot be comfortable with this, right?

https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1295987845157486593?s=20

so the woman who ran NHS Improvement for three years has no experience in public Health?

Obviously she was given her peerage by David Cameron under orders from Cummings and Theresa May only put in charge of NHS Improvement because she takes orders from Cummings as well:rolleyes:

****ing hell, do people actually read what they write on here or just rant without thinking?

Beasty

Enzokk wrote: »

Do you have evidence that she doesn't take her order from Cummings?




Pot, meet kettle, see below as an example

I instructed the 2 posters to get back on topic. It applies equally to everyone in the thread and seeking a response to a post where I've told the poster to drop it is also off topic (and they would be violating my instruction if they do respond)

Joe_ Public

Joe_ Public wrote: »

1. What has "still the case" got to do with it? We're talking about lucrative contracts that were awarded months ago, often to firms that had no apparent qualifications other than having the usual quota of old boy tory connections. While 1000s of others were just simply ignored. "Still the case" has zero relevance here.

we have covered this numerous times.

Can you show that these contracts were lucrative? can you show that they over paid for the goods? can you show that the firms complaining about not being contacted were not also given orders?

We know very little about most of these contracts or what happened, but as usual, the answer seems to be "Dominic Cummings".

Joe_ Public wrote: »

2. A track and trace operation, talking about empowering local councils, that only started sharing data with them a few weeks back, IN AUGUST. A test and trace operation so brilliant and successful that some local councils decided to bin it and set up their own systems less than two weeks ago.

"Dominic Harrison, Blackburn with Darwen council's director of public health, said: "We are now developing our own local contact tracing system. The national system is simply not tracing enough cases and contacts fast enough."

Yep, nice going Dido. Time you had a promotion.

They haven't binned it though, have they? The local and national systems work together to speed up contact. Given language barriers that seem to be a big part of the outbreak in Blackburn, that makes perfect sense.

Joe_ Public

Aegir wrote: »

we have covered this numerous times.

Can you show that these contracts were lucrative? can you show that they over paid for the goods? can you show that the firms complaining about not being contacted were not also given orders?

We know very little about most of these contracts or what happened, but as usual, the answer seems to be "Dominic Cummings".



They haven't binned it though, have they? The local and national systems work together to speed up contact. Given language barriers that seem to be a big part of the outbreak in Blackburn, that makes perfect sense.

1. I agree with you. We know little enough about how the process worked or how so many contracts ended up in the hands of tory connected firms, several of whom have been mired in controversy. What we do know is likely the mere tip of the iceberg. I expect this admirably open government, with never anything to hide, will be announcing a full independent inquiry into how this entirely unfortunate and unforeseen train of events happened to take place any day now.

2. "Oldham – the site of a major COVID outbreak – had to build its own contact tracing system and is, according to Council Deputy Leader Arooj Shah, “already looking at what vital services we may have to cut to cover our COVID costs because the government hasn’t given us what it said it would".

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/government-u-turning-on-the-u-turn-on-local-covid-contact-tracing/

There are many Oldhams across the uk, both labour and tory led councils, repeatedly stating that they were "going it alone" on contact tracing because the national system had failed. Up to only a couple of weeks back, councils had to employ people to spend their days ringing around care homes to find out how many had tested positive because the central system would not share that data with them. Even now, local councils are not entirely happy with the range of data they are getting. Six months into the crisis!

Think about that - councils, already stretched to the bare minumum by a decade of cuts and austerity, having to spend precious resources in order to get data that could have been furnished to them with one click of a computer mouse. Of all the elements of their failed system, that is the one that stands out for me as the most stupid and mind boggling of all.

Joe_ Public

Joe_ Public wrote: »

1. I agree with you. We know little enough about how the process worked or how so many contracts ended up in the hands of tory connected firms, several of whom have been mired in controversy. What we do know is likely the mere tip of the iceberg. I expect this admirably open government, with never anything to hide, will be announcing a full independent inquiry into how this entirely unfortunate and unforeseen train of events happened to take place any day now.

2. "Oldham – the site of a major COVID outbreak – had to build its own contact tracing system and is, according to Council Deputy Leader Arooj Shah, “already looking at what vital services we may have to cut to cover our COVID costs because the government hasn’t given us what it said it would".

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/government-u-turning-on-the-u-turn-on-local-covid-contact-tracing/

There are many Oldhams across the uk, both labour and tory led councils, repeatedly stating that they were "going it alone" on contact tracing because the national system had failed. Up to only a couple of weeks back, councils had to employ people to spend their days ringing around care homes to find out how many had tested positive because the central system would not share that data with them. Even now, local councils are not entirely happy with the range of data they are getting. Six months into the crisis!

Think about that - councils, already stretched to the bare minumum by a decade of cuts and austerity, having to spend precious resources in order to get data that could have been furnished to them with one click of a computer mouse. Of all the elements of their failed system, that is the one that stands out for me as the most stupid and mind boggling of all.

Are you seriously quoting open democracy?

What next, using the daily mail in a discussion on immigration? Your concern is touching though.

theological

Aegir wrote: »

Are you seriously quoting open democracy?

What next, using the daily mail in a discussion on immigration? Your concern is touching though.

I'm much much more interested in the results. Namely that the UK has an infection rate a quarter of what it was at the start of June.

Apparently according to Joe_Public the numbers are not much lower than what it was!

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Ignored what exactly? I said i was truly happy if uk numbers were showing good trends and will be great if that continues. That said, the numbers arent all that low, its just other European countries have experienced surges to varying degrees, including ireland. According to latest ons figures, there are still an estimated 3,800 daily cases in the uk. Its not that much lower than it was. And it is under control in Leicester now. Lockdowns work, but i think we knew that already.

I'd have greater confidence now that local councils are being empowered to tackle local outbreaks, though it is going to take more time for that process to become fully effective. Of course, why this had to take over 5 months, countless billions and lives lost to finally become policy is pretty much a national scandal but i know you will ignore that so pointless talking more about it.

As for Dido Harding, I'm struggling to think how the head of any £10bn operation could report with a 56% success rate and expect not to be called a failure. Actually mind boggling, that one.

If thats what £10bn buys you in modern Britain, I'd be a little concerned about the future quite frankly.

Sometimes you have to wonder if people are just criticising the UK for the sake of it, particularly when it is doing comparatively better per 100,000 than other large European countries in terms of new cases.

Joe_ Public

Aegir wrote: »

Are you seriously quoting open democracy?

What next, using the daily mail in a discussion on immigration? Your concern is touching though.

You know, i could have linked to the Telegraph, or probably 20 more right across the media spectrum, reporting exactly the same thing, but I'm glad i didnt as I'd hate to have deprived you of your blistering shoot the messenger response. Which, in a godwinesque kind of way, merely indicates we have reached the end of the road in this particular discussion.

serfboard

Aegir wrote: »

Are you seriously quoting open democracy?

What next, using the daily mail in a discussion on immigration?

OK, so neither Open Democracy nor the Daily Mail are reliable (or dispassionate) sources in your opinion.

Tell us who are then.

Joe_ Public

theological wrote: »

I'm much much more interested in the results. Namely that the UK has an infection rate a quarter of what it was at the start of June.

Apparently according to Joe_Public the numbers are not much lower than what it was!



Sometimes you have to wonder if people are just criticising the UK for the sake of it, particularly when it is doing comparatively better per 100,000 than other large European countries in terms of new cases.

Somethings obviously changing when the previously scorned international comparisons suddenly become the flavour of the day.

Sure, I already said it's great if the uk is doing comparitively well and hope that lasts for them. The ons latest figures are 3,800 daily cases. Its still not THAT low, thats all I'm saying.

And out of curiosity, why did you pick early june as a comparison? I mean, why not go all in and pick early April as an arbitrary point to compare. But why not, say, early July? Would it make more or less sense to compare the figures now to early july than before?

theological

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Somethings obviously changing when the previously scorned international comparisons suddenly become the flavour of the day.

Sure, I already said it's great if the uk is doing comparitively well and hope that lasts for them. The ons latest figures are 3,800 daily cases. Its still not THAT low, thats all I'm saying.

And out of curiosity, why did you pick early june as a comparison? I mean, why not go all in and pick early April as an arbitrary point to compare. But why not, say, early July? Would it make more or less sense to compare the figures now to early july than before?

The figures are also a reduction on early July. You can see this for yourself on the KCL data. You didn't offer a time frame in your original complaint that the figures weren't substantially lower.

The fact that you seem to be obsessively critical of the UK when things in the country you are living in seem to be worse is peculiar.

bob mcbob

theological wrote: »

I'm much much more interested in the results. Namely that According to one model the UK has an infection rate a quarter of what it was at the start of June.

Apparently according to Joe_Public the numbers are not much lower than what it was!



Sometimes you have to wonder if people are just criticising the UK for the sake of it, particularly when it is doing comparatively better per 100,000 than other large European countries in terms of new cases.

There fixed that for you.

Do you maybe think that you are showing some signs of confirmation bias?

Joe_ Public

theological wrote: »

The figures are also a reduction on early July. You can see this for yourself on the KCL data. You didn't offer a time frame in your original complaint that the figures weren't substantially lower.

The fact that you seem to be obsessively critical of the UK when things in the country you are living in seem to be worse is peculiar.

Yeah, I'm not being critical, I'm just posting official figures.

According to ons: in early july there were 25,000 new cases per week which we can roughly translate as just under 4,000 per day. Latest ons estimate: 3,800 new cases daily.

I know you prefer the other metric, so lets look at that. On 16 July, according to kcl zoe thing, there were 1,472 new cases daily. I forget what it is now, a bit lower i think, not staggeringly so.

Not being at all critical, was just curious why you picked early june as a point of comparison. That's all.

BonnieSituation

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Yeah, I'm not being critical, I'm just posting official figures.

According to ons: in early july there were 25,000 new cases per week which we can roughly translate as just under 4,000 per day. Latest ons estimate: 3,800 new cases daily.

I know you prefer the other metric, so lets look at that. On 16 July, according to kcl zoe thing, there were 1,472 new cases daily. I forget what it is now, a bit lower i think, not staggeringly so.

Not being at all critical, was just curious why you picked early june as a point of comparison. That's all.

Well...

theological wrote: »

Latest KCL figures are at 1214 cases per day down from over 1400 last week. Total cases of symptomatic coronavirus are at the lowest yet at 20,119.

This is huge progress.

Edit: The UK remains on the bottom end of ECDC incidence table.

theological

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Well...

Joe_Public didn't define a time frame in his original post. In any case the numbers continue to show a decline with an R of 0.8 which again is good going compared to many other countries in Europe.

Yet Joe_Public is characterising this as a failure. How bizarre. It's also bizarre that he's so interested in the UK considering what is happening at home!

Enzokk

This is related to the UK response to Covid-19 by highlighting how the government does things post Covid-19,

Firm linked to Gove and Cummings hired to work with Ofqual on A-levels

A company run by long–term associates of Michael Gove and Dominic Cummings has been working behind the scenes with the exams agency Ofqual on its disastrous strategy for determining A-level results, the Guardian can reveal.

Public First, a policy and research firm owned by James Frayne and Rachel Wolf, who both formerly worked for Gove, has been involved on the project with Ofqual since June after being granted a contract that was not put out to competitive tender.

Details of the contract have not been made public and Ofqual declined to say how much public money had been spent hiring Public First.


...


Wolf, who co-wrote the Conservative party’s 2019 election manifesto, owns Public First with Frayne, whose work alongside Cummings – the prime minister’s senior adviser – dates back to Eurosceptic campaigning 20 years ago. In 2011 Frayne was appointed the Department for Education’s director of communications when Gove was education secretary and Cummings was his chief political adviser.

Its interesting that Covid-19 seems to have given the government the leeway to just give out contracts without tender, even if it is not directly related to Covid-19. You could sell the need not to have tenders in regards to PPE at the height of the pandemic, but why is this continuing?

And in before Aegir, we do not know if this company isn't the best qualified to do the work, they well could be. But you don't know if you don't put it out to tender. And once again it is about who you know instead of if you are any good to provide the work.

Seems like they have links to Labour as well:

Natascha Engel
Natascha Engel is a Partner at Public First. As Labour MP in a former coal-mining constituency from 2005 to 2017, she specialised in energy and infrastructure policy before becoming Deputy Speaker of the House of Commons, a role in which she developed a deep understanding of how Parliamentary procedure works in practice. After leaving Parliament, she was appointed the Government’s first Commissioner for Shale Gas to liaise between local communities, regulators, industry and government. Natascha has many years of political campaign experience, from traditional trade union organising and mobilising to playing a critical role in the Labour Party’s winning 2001 Key Seat strategy and continues to take a keen interest in Labour Party policy.

And their head of education advised Labour when they were in government

Jonathan Simons
Jonathan Simons is a Director at Public First and Head of the Education Practice. Jonathan has spent the last fifteen years advising government and external organisations on strategy, communications and public policy. He joined Public First from the global education foundation the Varkey Foundation, where he was Director of Policy & Research. Jonathan has also worked as Director of Strategy and Market Development at Serco, Head of Education in the Prime Minister’s Strategy Unit, when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister, and also Head of Education at the Policy Exchange think tank.

Looks like they have a quite a bit of experience when it comes to education:

Luke Tryl
Luke is a Director at Public First and leads our Charity and Public Sector Practice. He joined Public First from the New Schools Network where he was the charity’s Director. While at the NSN, Luke worked to reposition the organisation’s messaging and rejuvenate the free schools programme through a series of policy asks, many of which have now been adopted by Boris Johnson’s Government.

Luke moved NSN having been Director of Strategy at Ofsted where he was a member of the executive board, and managing the research, strategy and communications teams. While at Ofsted he oversaw creation of the regulator’s new strategy and played a key role in the development of the new Education Inspection Framework. Before Ofsted, Luke was Special Adviser to Nicky Morgan during her time as Education Secretary, where he drove the implementation of her policy priorities and acted as her chief spokesperson. He was also Head of Education at Stonewall, where he ran their ground-breaking campaign to tackle homophobic bullying in schools.

But OMG DOMINIC CUMMINGS

Enzokk

Aegir wrote: »

Seems like they have links to Labour as well:



And their head of education advised Labour when they were in government



Looks like they have a quite a bit of experience when it comes to education:



But OMG DOMINIC CUMMINGS

I think it says a lot in a post about contracts for contacts your response is to show that people at the company is linked with Labour. This isn't a partisan issue. This is a, "how stupid does the UK government think its voters are if they think they can get away with it" issue. And judging by your and theological's rush to always defend no matter what, the answer seems obvious.

Enzokk

Enzokk wrote: »

I think it says a lot in a post about contracts for contacts your response is to show that people at the company is linked with Labour. This isn't a partisan issue. This is a, "how stupid does the UK government think its voters are if they think they can get away with it" issue. And judging by your and theological's rush to always defend no matter what, the answer seems obvious.

Well, I guess a headline of “ofqual gives contract to company with links to Stonewall, Labour and New Schools Network would make pretty ****ty headlines.

Dave0301

Aegir wrote: »

Well, I guess a headline of “ofqual gives contract to company with links to Stonewall, Labour and New Schools Network would make pretty ****ty headlines.

But does the fact that it was the 3rd contract awarded without public tender to a company that has close links to Cummings and prominent Tories not ring alarm bells? Particularly as this contract had more than enough time to go through a tender process as exams were cancelled very early on.

It has been pointed out here many times that contracts may need to be awarded at short notice given the circumstances. However, the fact they are being awarded to associates of the current cabinet is not a great look. Now, it all may well be a coincidence; just like the drive to Barnard Castle being a useful and convenient eye test, but I remain skeptical.

I don't care who has links to what party to be honest. What I want to know is that my taxes are going towards a worthwhile investment, where some thought and competitive process have been applied. I can't say for certain that has happened with a number of investments in the last year.

Joe_ Public

Do people here do even a cursory bit of investigation before they post stuff. 5 minutes digging would unearth the following about ex labour mp Natascha Engel.

A staunchly pro-fracking mp, even though labour policy is strictly anti fracking.

After losing her seat, she gets a job with Ineos, one of the UKs most prominent fracking companies.

In October 2018, she is appointed by Theresa May as the governments Shale Commissioner.

After a year steeped in controversy, she resigns from her post, giving the exclusive to the Mail. In July, 2019 she starts work for Public First, one of whose founders wrote the tory election manifesto.

And Public First which lobbies for Cuadrilla and other fracking companies.

Natascha Engel was Labour in the same way you'd say Donald Trump was once a democrat. Ultimately they both found their rightful kin.

Enzokk

Aegir wrote: »

Well, I guess a headline of “ofqual gives contract to company with links to Stonewall, Labour and New Schools Network would make pretty ****ty headlines.

It would because it is rubbish. You really are scraping the barrel for witty replies on this and if this is the best you can do to avoid admitting what is happening is a shambles.


Seems like cases is on the rise in the UK,

Lockdown fears for Birmingham amid sharp rise in UK coronavirus cases

Police and officials in Birmingham have warned the public to act now to avert a city-wide lockdown as the number of people testing positive for coronavirus in England rose 27% in a week, hitting its highest level since mid-June.

Enzokk

Enzokk wrote: »

It would because it is rubbish. You really are scraping the barrel for witty replies on this and if this is the best you can do to avoid admitting what is happening is a shambles

Which bit is rubbish?

Appointed by Ofqual - check
One partner is an ex Labour MP - check
One Director worked for Stonewall - check
One Director worked for New Schools Network - check.

Dave0301

Dave0301 wrote: »

But does the fact that it was the 3rd contract awarded without public tender to a company that has close links to Cummings and prominent Tories not ring alarm bells? Particularly as this contract had more than enough time to go through a tender process as exams were cancelled very early on.

It has been pointed out here many times that contracts may need to be awarded at short notice given the circumstances. However, the fact they are being awarded to associates of the current cabinet is not a great look. Now, it all may well be a coincidence; just like the drive to Barnard Castle being a useful and convenient eye test, but I remain skeptical.

I don't care who has links to what party to be honest. What I want to know is that my taxes are going towards a worthwhile investment, where some thought and competitive process have been applied. I can't say for certain that has happened with a number of investments in the last year.

Not all contracts require a tender and not all contracts are awarded by the government. Ofqual is a quango that although governed by government procurement guidelines, can work with any company they like.

There has been a concerning contract give to Public First that was classed as Covid related, but was actually about Brexit. In this instance though, I have no doubt that it is a genuine piece of consultancy that is fully above board.

Of course, the Guardian and Open Democracy dont care about that, it just gives them a tenuous excuse to shout OMG CUMMINGS.

Peregrinus

Aegir wrote: »

Which bit is rubbish?

Appointed by Ofqual - check
One partner is an ex Labour MP - check
One Director worked for Stonewall - check
One Director worked for New Schools Network - check.

I'm not sure this helps. We have a consultancy that ensures that it has personal and social links with politicians from both major parties so that, no matter who is power, they have connections they can exploit to get public money? Systemic corruption is OK as long as its pervasively systemic?

The fact that this outfit also has links with Labour is very far from suggsting that the award of this contract was not corrupt. On the contrary, if anything it tends to reinforce the suspicion that it was.

And those suspicions are particularly damaging when they arise in relation to a government headed by an openly dishonest old Etonian who is known to value loyalty and biddability over comptence and integrity. We fear that such a government will be corrupt, and then we see it awarding contracts to entrprises apparently set up to cultivate networks with political parties. What are we supposed to think?

Joe_ Public

Just to be clear, Natascha Engel, ex Labour mp, was not headhunted by Public First because they were keen to have different political views on board, or because they specifically wanted to have a labour presence or something, she was hired because she was a staunch pro fracking activist and Public First is a pro fracking lobby group. It is that simple.

In 2018, as government tsar for fracking, Engel had a series of meetings with Cuadrilla and other fracking firms. After her resignation, it was revealed that she had tried to delete all her emails in relation to this correspondence. One email showed that Cuadrilla was prepping her for broadcast appearances. Cuadrilla is represented by Public First.

https://drillordrop.com/tag/natascha-engel/

After losing her seat Engel was also involved with TWC, a pro Israeli and pro tory consultancy/think tank. TWC was involved in those illicit meetings Priti Patel had during government trips to Israel as international development secretary. Even Kate Hoey had better labour credentials than Engel in the end, quite frankly.

The facts are Public First is a dyed in the wool tory vehicle driven by dyed in the wool tory lifers who have been trading on their connections ever since the tories returned to power. James Frayne has been a close pal of Dom Cummings for nigh on 20 years. One of Rachel Wolfs first jobs in politics was working for Boris Johnson. They co-wrote the tory 2019 election manifesto for pitys sake.

theological

Admittedly I don't care hugely about this stuff. I care about the virus and how the UK is doing. KCL figures (the largest study we have on this) is showing an R of 0.9 and under 20,000 cases of symptomatic coronavirus for the first time. It is doing much better than many other countries in Europe on that level.