The UK response - Part II - read OP

S.M.B.

S.M.B. wrote: »

One thing that often gets lost in this £7k a day debacle is that this is what the Government is being charged for services and not what the contractor is walking away with in their back pocket every day.

I'm still in the 'why the hell did the government go down this hyper centralised/privatised' path but I think claims like 'Consultants from deloitte and other firms making up to 7k per day' can be being debunked fairly quickly.

edit: not lost by aegir as he got here before me

And there is no evidence that the government were charged by anyone £7k per day, only that this rate is included on the rate card.

Joe_ Public

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Yeah, lads in suits are picking off thousands a day for "consultancy" for bungled operations while health care workers saving actual lives are living close to the bread line. Tabloid stuff, right.

Here's the £12bn question. You have a network of labs, staffed by people who have been involved in testing and tracing for years, with the facility to turn tests around in a number of hours. So faced with the need to expand, instead of using that for a solid base on which to build and develop a wider network, they turn to private investors, many with no or little experience in the field, and furnish them with billions to do it from scratch instead.

Local health authorities and councils were pleading to be helped and invested in from the beginning. It would have cost a fraction of the price and, however effective, it could not have been worse than it turned out. And nobody is saying private help wouldn't have been welcome in the circumstances but the local bodies, with the best knowledge of their areas, would have taken the lead.

Of course, doing all this would have meant properly empowering local councils to be able to assist regional health authorities, but as we know, tory governments have big issues sharing money with local councils, particularly labour ones. So maybe that was always a non starter.

Thus: loads of readies for serco and deloitte and their buddies. Deloitte wouldn't even share the data with the local authorities because it wasn't in their contract to do so. Now they are trying to make more money by getting the councils to pay for their services. Profit and more profit all the way.

How would you expand the labs? Buy new equipment and recruit loads of new people?

In the middle of a pandemic and for something with a (albeit uncertain) end date?

Joe_ Public

Aegir wrote: »

How would you expand the labs? Buy new equipment and recruit loads of new people?

In the middle of a pandemic and for something with a (albeit uncertain) end date?

As if that's somehow more radical or questionable than building a whole new system from scratch and letting it be run by firms with no expertise in the area and who seem motivated by profit as much as anything else. Wonderful.

Eight, nine months ago, nhs lab bosses, local health and council leaders were adamant they were the ones who were best placed to do this task and pleaded for the investment. Frankly, i trust them. The regional system is good enough for the Germans and i broadly trust them in these matters too.

While the nhs, or government, insists nhs labs are operating at full capacity, a Unite survey last month found only 38% of its lab workers actually agreed with that.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-tests-stuck-nhs-labs-unused-a4548616.html

Joe_ Public

Joe_ Public wrote: »

As if that's somehow more radical or questionable than building a whole new system from scratch and letting it be run by firms with no expertise in the area and who seem motivated by profit as much as anything else. Wonderful.

Eight, nine months ago, nhs lab bosses, local health and council leaders were adamant they were the ones who were best placed to do this task and pleaded for the investment. Frankly, i trust them. The regional system is good enough for the Germans and i broadly trust them in these matters too.

While the nhs, or government, insists nhs labs are operating at full capacity, a Unite survey last month found only 38% of its lab workers actually agreed with that.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-tests-stuck-nhs-labs-unused-a4548616.html

Building new labs and recruiting new staff (from where we have no idea) is less radical than getting a network of pre existing labs from the education and private sectors to do the work?

Joe_ Public

Aegir wrote: »

Building new labs and recruiting new staff (from where we have no idea) is less radical than getting a network of pre existing labs from the education and private sectors to do the work?

I don't know but building new labs and recruiting staff is basically how the whole lighthouse network was established anyway so...em...

I guess building on the existing nhs network would have involved some of the same procedure, only on a much lesser scale, much more cheaply and, i suspect, a heck of a lot more efficiently.

Only a few weeks back, round the time they were sending 1000s of tests abroad - despite all that mysterious unused test capacity they boast of - there were reports of lighthouse bosses sending requests to nhs labs to dig them out. Open to correction, but i don't think P2 tests can actually be processed in nhs labs.

Joe_ Public

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I don't know but building new labs and recruiting staff is basically how the whole lighthouse network was established anyway so...em...

I guess building on the existing nhs network would have involved some of the same procedure, only on a much lesser scale, much more cheaply and, i suspect, a heck of a lot more efficiently.

Only a few weeks back, round the time they were sending 1000s of tests abroad - despite all that mysterious unused test capacity they boast of - there were reports of lighthouse bosses sending requests to nhs labs to dig them out. Open to correction, but i don't think P2 tests can actually be processed in nhs labs.

How would it have been on a lesser scale and cheaper?

Would the NHS have paid less? Do they have an army of IT and project managers capable of working across all four regions?

I would have thought increasing the NHS capacity (which they have done) and ring fencing it so that it is dedicated to Covid and non Covid NHS tests is a good way forward.

Sudden Valley

So anyone any idea where this war with Northern Mayors is going to lead. I mean if the central government state pibs should close the mayors cant stop police enforcing the rules?

S.M.B.

Aegir wrote: »

I would have thought increasing the NHS capacity (which they have done) and ring fencing it so that it is dedicated to Covid and non Covid NHS tests is a good way forward.

I have read/listened to accounts from multiple experts who know a lot more than me that completely disagree.

Also, this issue isn't restricted to testing, labs etc. It's relates to the entire test, track isolate system.

Joe_ Public

Aegir wrote: »

How would it have been on a lesser scale and cheaper?

Would the NHS have paid less? Do they have an army of IT and project managers capable of working across all four regions?

I would have thought increasing the NHS capacity (which they have done) and ring fencing it so that it is dedicated to Covid and non Covid NHS tests is a good way forward.

Because it wasn't being built from scratch. Seems fairly common sense to me that building off a solid foundation, using existing knowledge and experience, is a lot more economical and efficient than going developing it from scratch. Maybe outsourcing makes sense and works in some situations, just in my experience it more often leads to bottom line profiteering and chronic inefficiency.

I can't believe we're looking at £12bn having been shelled out - how much of it actually wasted, moot point - and still wondering there was no better way. Why does it make sense nhs stick to P1? The main barrier to scaling up, the nhs lab people always said, wasn't lab space or staff, that could easily be sorted. It was funding for reagents, kit and other equipment. They turn tests around within hours, trace the vast majority of contacts. Isn't it only natural to ask if they could have brought that efficiency or close to it to community testing too?

serfboard

Joe_ Public wrote: »

how many spaffed so many billions out to the private sector with so little to show for it in return?

As Serco's CEO Rupert Soames grandfather (Winston Churchill) might have put it - Never has so much been paid by so many to so few for so little.

Joe_ Public

serfboard wrote: »

As Serco's CEO Rupert Soames grandfather (Winston Churchill) might have put it - Never has so much been paid by so many to so few for so little.

Indeed. Winston helps in no small way to defeat the Nazis and gets turfed out of power for his troubles. While Rupert repeatedly fails to deliver the goods and they keep giving him the big, juicy contracts anyway.

dublinman1990

It's been reported in the UK media that a small number of people, namely students, living in Birmingham were given testing kits with used swabs to carry out their Covid tests. It turns out that some of these students had already tested themselves with the used swabs potentially giving them a bigger risk of contracting Covid-19.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-54539328

Harry Palmr

Wales going "full monty" for just two weeks, which as a tactic doesn't seem long enough to achieve what it intended to.

theological

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Wales going "full monty" for just two weeks, which as a tactic doesn't seem long enough to achieve what it intended to.

It also proves that we still don't know how to control the spread of the virus. The only way we know how is to put society under effective house arrest for 2 weeks. After those two weeks are over we'll still be none the wiser about what set of measures can allow us to control the virus sustainably. Perhaps it'll just have to be 2 weeks shutdown every few months until we know how.

nacho libre

theological wrote: »

It also proves that we still don't know how to control the spread of the virus. The only way we know how is to put society under effective house arrest for 2 weeks. After those two weeks are over we'll still be none the wiser about what set of measures can allow us to control the virus sustainably. Perhaps it'll just have to be 2 weeks shutdown every few months until we know how.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/09/k-overlooked-variable-driving-pandemic/616548/

S.M.B.

Read that article when it came out and along with a few other sources it has got me quite anti - lockdown.

I'm all for measures that reduce the spread but blanket lockdowns just make no sense to me based on what I've learnt over the past few months.

Waiting for infection numbers that threaten NHS services to then shut everything down sounds like such a bad plan of action.

Enzokk

Something...Something...world beating system....


https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1319315964597600259?s=20

Seems they are looking for short term wins. I would have thought they would have learned with "winning" the battle to have 100K tests per day that this isn't the way to go. What is that quote about the definition of madness? Doing the same thing over and over, right?

BonnieSituation

Enzokk wrote: »

Something...Something...world beating system....


https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1319315964597600259?s=20

Seems they are looking for short term wins. I would have thought they would have learned with "winning" the battle to have 100K tests per day that this isn't the way to go. What is that quote about the definition of madness? Doing the same thing over and over, right?

I wonder how successful Serco will be with their above board tender.

Enzokk

Enzokk wrote: »

Something...Something...world beating system....


https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1319315964597600259?s=20

Seems they are looking for short term wins. I would have thought they would have learned with "winning" the battle to have 100K tests per day that this isn't the way to go. What is that quote about the definition of madness? Doing the same thing over and over, right?

So the should follow the Irish example?

How’s that working out?

BonnieSituation

Aegir wrote: »

So the should follow the Irish example?

How’s that working out?

Oh look over there everyone!

Seriously, have you ever taken any criticism of this government in your stride?

It's so bizarre!

BonnieSituation

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Oh look over there everyone!

Seriously, have you ever taken any criticism of this government in your stride?

It's so bizarre!

So what’s the answer Bonnie, you being an expert and all?

This is just more tabloid stuff to get the uneducated outraged.

And to be honest, it’s more a “why are you outraged about what’s happening in a foreign country, when contact tracing is falling on its arse spectacularly here ?”

I often wonder if there are government plants on here who raise these things to deflect from the endless string of **** ups here.

BonnieSituation

Aegir wrote: »

So what’s the answer Bonnie, you being an expert and all?

This is just more tabloid stuff to get the uneducated outraged.

And to be honest, it’s more a “why are you outraged about what’s happening in a foreign country, when contact tracing is falling on its arse spectacularly here ?”

I often wonder if there are government plants on here who raise these things to deflect from the endless string of **** ups here.

Ah yes.

The follow up of "You disagree with me so you must be an expert" trope you're so fond of.

You're so transparent it's painful.

You have NEVER taken any criticism of the UKGOV at all easily. It's like you see it as a personal attack. This attitude is borne out by your predictable and aggressive follow-ups.

Seriously, are you that much proto-Tory that you feel so perturbed by ANY criticism of your kin?

Are Tories that thin-skinned that they need to see criticism across the board to feel like they're not being attacked?

How many Irish government criticisms are worth a UKGOV criticism to make you feel better?

BonnieSituation

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Ah yes.

The follow up of "You disagree with me so you must be an expert" trope you're so fond of.

You're so transparent it's painful.

You have NEVER taken any criticism of the UKGOV at all easily. It's like you see it as a personal attack. This attitude is borne out by your predictable and aggressive follow-ups.

Seriously, are you that much proto-Tory that you feel so perturbed by ANY criticism of your kin?

Are Tories that thin-skinned that they need to see criticism across the board to feel like they're not being attacked?

How many Irish government criticisms are worth a UKGOV criticism to make you feel better?

Oh dear, looks like I hit a nerve.

As I said, this is more tabloid stuff to get the uneducated outraged. Looks like it worked.

If using an outsourced call centre isn’t the answer, what is?

Enzokk

Aegir wrote: »

So the should follow the Irish example?

How’s that working out?

Step one is deflect.

Aegir wrote: »

So what’s the answer Bonnie, you being an expert and all?

This is just more tabloid stuff to get the uneducated outraged.

And to be honest, it’s more a “why are you outraged about what’s happening in a foreign country, when contact tracing is falling on its arse spectacularly here ?”

I often wonder if there are government plants on here who raise these things to deflect from the endless string of **** ups here.

So you are saying the ad is a lie? There is no position advertised and it is all just posted to feed the lefty liberal media and their outrage?

S.M.B.

The T&T figures today were woeful but it's at least better to see a more humble attitude acknowledging the issue in comparison to the "world beating" bravado of a few months ago.

Now hopefully some improvements can be made going forward.

And Aegir, plenty here are Irish citizens based in the UK and our motivation for posting here is nothing like what you are claiming.

BonnieSituation

Aegir wrote: »

Oh dear, looks like I hit a nerve.

Projection

As I said, this is more tabloid stuff to get the uneducated outraged. Looks like it worked.

Ad hominem

If using an outsourced call centre isn’t the answer, what is?

Ignoring the salient point of the ad and the criticism of same.

---

It's an Aegir full house.

Enzokk

I wonder if anyone has noticed the contradiction in government advice on attending sporting events.

https://twitter.com/danroan/status/1319576752423948289?s=20

In before Aegir or anyone else, this is not a criticism, just a curiosity about how you can watch the match in a bar at the ground indoors but you cannot watch it outside.

BonnieSituation

Why is there a curtain?

Enzokk

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why is there a curtain?

I believe it is to stop them watching the match live, because that is not allowed under the current rules. This is the clubs trying to show what they think of the current guidelines and how stupid they are. You can be in the same stadium inside and watch it on a TV, but you are not allowed to watch it live though.

Spanish Eyes

Johnson et al, they don't care. If things don't improve the blame will be placed firmly on the population who refused to play ball with their rules.

Clever tactic really. The debacle in Manchester with Andy Burnham was unreal too. The Tories do not like to hear the obvious.

Like here the messages are garbled. Few people understand the rules, so they will be broken. Their numbers are not good.