Ireland to contribute €16 billion more than it receives to EU in next 7 years

Graham

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

No. I said we will agree because we will need help after Brexit. Long term it is not in our interest to upset our sweet sweet multinational deal.

So you're saying it will be in our interest to agree.

We got there in the end.

ExMachina1000

Graham wrote: »

So you're saying it will be in our interest to agree.

We got their in the end.

Do you think changing the current set up we have with multinationals is in our interest?

Don't reply on impulse. Take a second to think about it

Graham

We haven't agreed to change our setup.

Podge_irl

Graham wrote: »

So you're saying it will be in our interest to agree.

We got their in the end.

Of course this is all pointlessly hypothetical considering in reality we would never agree to this and nor would about a third of the EU countries.

ExMachina1000

Graham wrote: »

We haven't agreed to change our setup.

Would it be good or bad for the country? Hypothetically speaking of course Graham

fly_agaric

micosoft wrote: »

Can I ask you a honest question. All of your positions (as you flesh them out) seem increasingly against Irelands national interest and Western European states interests. They are aligned with Brexit but wider than that Russian interference and a desire for a weakened West. Specifically your curious example above is counter to a very clear (yet limited) attempt by the EU states to form a foreign policy bulwark against Russian interference and its US friend Trumpism. I'm curious - whose interests do you think you represent or align with?

You'll never get any answer, but I suppose that is answer enough.:(

ExMachina1000

fly_agaric wrote: »

You'll never get answer, but I suppose that is answer enough.

I gave an answer friend.

Graham

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Would it be good or bad for the country? Hypothetically speaking of course Graham

With or without the EU, opinions globally are going to force us to reconsider our tax regimes at some point in the future.

ExMachina1000

Graham wrote: »

With or without the EU, opinions globally are going to force us to reconsider our tax regimes at some point in the future.

And would it be good for the country?

Graham

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

And would it be good for the country?

There will be little you, I, our government or the EU will be able to do to prevent it.

To suggest this change will/will-not hinge on the EU or our membership is to completely misunderstand global sentiment towards our tax setup.

ExMachina1000

Graham wrote: »

There will be little you, I, our government or the EU will be able to do to prevent it.

To suggest this change will/will-not hinge on the EU or our membership is to completely misunderstand global sentiment towards our tax setup.

Fantastic lengths just to avoid answering a question. Loop the loops , roundabouts and spinneroonys

micosoft

MrMusician18 wrote: »

My memory is a little hazy and I do stand open to correction, but I'm almost certain that loans to Ireland were offered by Norway and the UK at a rate just above their own borrowing rate. The IMF component was around 4% and the EU component was over 6%. The overall combined rate was around 6%. The country was on it's knees, suffering huge unemployment and loss of wealth and the kind of solidarity we received was akin to sticking the boot in or giving someone dangling from a building a rusty blade to hang onto.

The extra 2-3% heaped on as a lesson for Ireland wasn't anything that was not going to be learned from the other consequences. It was punitive and wasn't real solidarity.

We now look at Spain and Italy who suffering a natural disaster but are only in the state they are in because thay have steadfastly refused to reform their economies. Their reward isn't 6% loans but low interest ones along with grants. How is that fair?

Yes - there is probably a analysis of what was cheapest/fairest. It's complicated by the fact rates changed over the duration of the loans. The IMF at one point were charging twice as much.

And of course there were terms attached. The UK's terms were harsher than others forbidding early payment so we had to pay the 2008 rate even when we could borrow money more cheaply elsewhere. The EU allowed us pay back quickly.

That said different times etc I don't think you can compare the situation now with 2008 and arguably the EU has learnt not be "punitive" (I don't see IMF or Bilateral loans to compare to). I would agree that the EU membership have reflected on the serious mistakes of 2008 and institutions have done things never considered before then and now. Look how far the ECB has moved from its Bundesbank origins where by design there was no solidarity, to the "Do what it takes" mentality of today.

At the end of the day my core point is that Ireland needs to learn never to get into that position as opposed to laying the blame on the lenders which is an easier story to tell not taking accountability.

And bear in mind - solidarity is a two way street. This thread started with the precept that Ireland stops contributing to the EU...

fly_agaric

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I gave an answer friend.

Sort of... Question was "I'm curious - whose interests do you think you represent or align with?". It was followed up by Eurosceptic points about "our" sovereignty (?), EU should really be "just a free trade bloc" etc.

ExMachina1000

fly_agaric wrote: »

Sort of... Question was "I'm curious - whose interests do you think you represent or align with?". It was followed up by Eurosceptic points about "our" sovereignty (?), EU should really be "just a free trade bloc" etc.

Whose interests to you think you represent or align with?

I align with myself.
You type euro skeptic as if it's a bad thing

Who do yours align with?

View

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

You have laid it out well and accurately. I feel all countries will agree to the clause. Most by will as it will benifit them. Others like in the case of Ireland by pressure. Ireland will need a lot of help from Europe with the uk leaving the EU.

The second part of the post. The actual question. My honest reply would be that I would prefer the European union to be just a free trading bloc or as it is with no power over countries. Ie EU law supersedes national law etc.

Ireland has a great deal with multinationals here and it has greatly benighted the country. It has made us what we are. EU money also helped massively in the form of grants for farmers and road networks etc.

I feel as time goes on the EU as a bloc government is encroaching on countries sovereign rights more and more. Moving toward a sort of federalised union ran from Brussels. I don't think this is beneficial long term.

In summary: A free trading bloc working together as sovereign nations yes. A centralised government who can impose blanket laws that nations must adhere to no.

Forget about all of your Brexit, Russia, anti western notions.

The reality is that the U.K. leaving the EU will have much less impact on our economy than the Financial Collapse we experienced ten plus years ago. Back then our government refused point blank to raise our corporate taxes at every stage of negotiations with the Troika - literally, opting to make significant cuts to our public services rather than negatively impact the profit margins of the richest companies in the world that operate here. As such your claims about this seem fanciful.

Second, were it a case that the EU was a lose trading bloc with no power over its members (ie no CJEU), then we could wake up to discover that France has passed a law imposing 10% tariffs on all goods arriving from Ireland and there wouldn’t be a d£mn thing we could do about it, since it would be up to French courts to decide the case and they would just look at their domestic law and say “Yes that is legal as our Parliament passed it”.

Lastly, your comment that “the EU as a bloc government is encroaching on countries sovereign rights more and more. Moving toward a sort of federalised union ran from Brussels” is incorrect. The member states, not “the EU” decides what the EU can and cannot do. None of the member countries have ever tabled proposals that the EU become a federalised Union, and it would require unanimity to support such an idea (and the rewriting of the domestic constitutions of virtually every member state).

ExMachina1000

View wrote: »

The reality is that the U.K. leaving the EU will have much less impact on our economy than the Financial Collapse we experienced ten plus years ago. Back then our government refused point blank to raise our corporate taxes at every stage of negotiations with the Troika - literally, opting to make significant cuts to our public services rather than negatively impact the profit margins of the richest companies in the world that operate here. As such your claims about this seem fanciful.

Second, were it a case that the EU was a lose trading bloc with no power over its members (ie no CJEU), then we could wake up to discover that France has passed a law imposing 10% tariffs on all goods arriving from Ireland and there wouldn’t be a d£mn thing we could do about it, since it would be up to French courts to decide the case and they would just look at their domestic law and say “Yes that is legal as our Parliament passed it”.

Lastly, your comment that “the EU as a bloc government is encroaching on countries sovereign rights more and more. Moving toward a sort of federalised union ran from Brussels” is incorrect. The member states, not “the EU” decides what the EU can and cannot do. None of the member countries have ever tabled proposals that the EU become a federalised Union, and it would require unanimity to support such an idea (and the rewriting of the domestic constitutions of virtually every member state).

I have to go to lidl but il be back to you.

micosoft

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

You have laid it out well and accurately. I feel all countries will agree to the clause. Most by will as it will benifit them. Others like in the case of Ireland by pressure. Ireland will need a lot of help from Europe with the uk leaving the EU.

If so why do you misinterpret it. The particular use of the clause here is in Irelands interest. It puts Ireland into a powerful diplomatic position of influencing individually and at a global level. Our security council seat being evidence of that.

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

The second part of the post. The actual question. My honest reply would be that I would prefer the European union to be just a free trading bloc or as it is with no power over countries. Ie EU law supersedes national law etc.

Ah. So the Hard Brexiteer view of a non-EU "trading bloc" where countries race to the bottom and demand extractive access to other markets without any reciprocal arrangement or mechanism to ensure fairness. In essence you want to set us back to the thirties where trade-wars were the norm.

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Ireland has a great deal with multinationals here and it has greatly benighted the country. It has made us what we are. EU money also helped massively in the form of grants for farmers and road networks etc.

And so you want to pull up the ladder. Instead of contributing to the development of other EU states. That is informative of your world view.

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I feel as time goes on the EU as a bloc government is encroaching on countries sovereign rights more and more. Moving toward a sort of federalised union ran from Brussels. I don't think this is beneficial long term.

We pool sovereignty where it makes sense and we agree. We don't where it doesn't. That works really well for small countries like Ireland. In your world we become tethered to the nearest "big power" and straight back to English hegemony over Ireland. This sovereignty you speak of is a myth - Ireland was never truely independent until we joined the EU - merely accepting London edicts and monetary policy (the Punt was locked to Sterling until we joined the EU). Your approach puts us straight back there.

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

In summary: A free trading bloc working together as sovereign nations yes. A centralised government who can impose blanket laws that nations must adhere to no.

A myth that does not and cannot exist.

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Forget about all of your Brexit, Russia, anti western notions.

Again - your perspective is aligned with those who would do harm to Ireland and is entirely against the interests of the Irish People. You need to explain why your perspective is aligned with Brexiteers like Farage who would knowingly harm Ireland. It's a serious question.

mick087

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

People should put our national interests first and Europe's interests second.

Yes this is correct.

Unfortunately many believe they have a better idea of what is going on in europe than what is actually going on in there own street.

fly_agaric

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Whose interests to you think you represent or align with?

I align with myself.
You type euro skeptic as if it's a bad thing

Who do yours align with?

Yep...euroscepticism is definitely a bad thing for this country.

If the EU fails (that summit ending in a row+ heads of government failing [again] to agree a budget or any economic stimulus would definitely be an important failure which would have been shouted to the rooftops) I think we are going to be in some serious trouble in Ireland.

So my "interests" as you put it tend to align with what will benefit Ireland.

Zebra3

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

If I was German, looking at that, I wouldn't be too happy

It's amazing how many people don't understand what goes on around them.

The euro is basically the Deutsche Mark.

Every time a poorer state joins the EU, some people will be thinking why oh why is this bunch of povos being let in?

Simple. This drives down the strength of the euro/DM and helps keeps Germany's exports cheaper.

Germans obvious feel that what they pay in to the EU, they more than get back out of it through cheaper exports so Germans looking at those stats are actually quite smug. They know what's going on.

The establishment here (the media and FFFG/Lab) will tell you it's great you don't have to change your money when you go on holiers, and it's because Germany is a benevolent nation making up for WWII.

As a result of this we get interest rates that are set to Germany's demands, and loads of cheap money loaned to banks here by irresponsible foreign banks that Irish taxpayers have had to foot the bill for.

micosoft

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Whose interests to you think you represent or align with?

I align with myself.
You type euro skeptic as if it's a bad thing

Who do yours align with?

I suspect like most people here it aligns with that of Ireland - a small liberal democracy on the western seaboard of Europe. The EU has been the making of Ireland and the benefits vastly outweigh any perceived downside.

On the other had Euroskeptism is a faith based ideology with murky origins outside of Ireland. It is and ideology built on misinformation, intolerance and far right nationalism. It is absolutely aligned against the interests of small countries such as Ireland and is completely aligned with the interests of big power countries like Russia, Republicans in the US and the Imperialists in the UK as well as those who benefit from chaos.

And just to be clear - there is a world of difference between the hundreds of millions of people that vote in MEP's to work on improving the EU and address shortcomings to the Euroskeptics who are only interested in tearing it down to suit an agenda using bad faith arguments.

Graham

Zebra3 wrote: »

Germans obvious feel that what they pay in to the EU, they more than get back out of it through cheaper exports so Germans looking at those stats are actually quite smug. They know what's going on.

Pity some of our own population don't appear to be able to understand that concept.

Risteard81

It's time for the grown ups to admit that the so-called "EU" is our enemy and we should and must leave it. Irish sovereignty does not belong outside Ireland. To claim otherwise is treasonous.

View

Zebra3 wrote: »

It's amazing how many people don't understand what goes on around them.

The euro is basically the Deutsche Mark.

Every time a poorer state joins the EU, some people will be thinking why oh why is this bunch of povos being let in?

Simple. This drives down the strength of the euro/DM and helps keeps Germany's exports cheaper.

Germans obvious feel that what they pay in to the EU, they more than get back out of it through cheaper exports so Germans looking at those stats are actually quite smug. They know what's going on.

The establishment here (the media and FFFG/Lab) will tell you it's great you don't have to change your money when you go on holiers, and it's because Germany is a benevolent nation making up for WWII.

As a result of this we get interest rates that are set to Germany's demands, and loads of cheap money loaned to banks here by irresponsible foreign banks that Irish taxpayers have had to foot the bill for.

Germany could have achieved “keeping Germany’s exports cheaper” by unilaterally, as a sovereign nation, pursuing policies to keep their DM exchange rate lower, and their exports higher as a result, without ever having adopted the Euro. As such your analysis fails.

sameoldname

Risteard81 wrote: »

It's time for the grown ups to admit that the so-called "EU" is our enemy and we should and must leave it. Irish sovereignty does not belong outside Ireland. To claim otherwise is treasonous.

When the children acknowledge the depth of their own ignorance, then we can have a discussion. To engage otherwise is folly.

Am I doing it right?

Zebra3

View wrote: »

Germany could have achieved “keeping Germany’s exports cheaper” by unilaterally, as a sovereign nation, pursuing policies to keep their DM exchange rate lower, and their exports higher as a result, without ever having adopted the Euro. As such your analysis fails.

Yet you don't explain how they could do that with the so-called single market and open borders.

View

Risteard81 wrote: »

It's time for the grown ups to admit that the so-called "EU" is our enemy and we should and must leave it. Irish sovereignty does not belong outside Ireland. To claim otherwise is treasonous.

Well, as we have all seen in the case of the U.K., going it alone just means they “independently” agreed to block Huawei - THE biggest 5G equipment supplier - from its domestic networks when Trump whistled.

View

Zebra3 wrote: »

Yet you don't explain how they could do that with the so-called single market and open borders.

Germany operated the DM quite happily prior the the adoption of the Euro on Jan 1st 1999. There was absolutely nothing stopping them cutting their interest rates as and when they wished or running large government deficits, both of which would have resulted in the devaluation of the DM (as either or both measures did with other countries’ currencies).

Zebra3

View wrote: »

Germany operated the DM quite happily prior the the adoption of the Euro on Jan 1st 1999. There was absolutely nothing stopping them cutting their interest rates as and when they wished or running large government deficits, both of which would have resulted in the devaluation of the DM (as either or both measures did with other countries’ currencies).

Which isn't really much use when everyone else can respond in kind.

mick087

Risteard81 wrote: »

It's time for the grown ups to admit that the so-called "EU" is our enemy and we should and must leave it. Irish sovereignty does not belong outside Ireland. To claim otherwise is treasonous.

Leaving the EU would not be easy and would not be a good idea for Ireland at the moment.

I think within the next few years if the EU does not change then you might find opinions will change towards the EU.