Ireland to contribute €16 billion more than it receives to EU in next 7 years

View

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I'm not arguing that that Ireland has benefited massively from eu membership. That is without doubt.

I'm saying that this budget deal is terrible for Ireland. An extra 2 billion a year. That is two billion that we cant actually afford to pay.

If you expect any real progress on housing or healthcare through increased spending you can forget it.

Think of it this way. Ireland announced a 7 billion stimulus package. 2 billion of that is now spent already on the eu budget.

More public housing? There is 2 billion euro less to spend
Etc.

Spain and Italy have been given 130 billion euro between them to spend.

It is a bad budget for Ireland. By Ireland I mean me,you and everyone else.

As I pointed out several pages ago, the figures you cited in your OP were guesswork at best as, in the conclusions to their meeting, the European Council did not break down the total revenue payable on a per member state basis and they specifically said that the methodology to be used for two of the three revenue sources were to be completely revised. It is only AFTER those new methodologies have been devised and adopted that anyone can come up with an accurate figure.

ChikiChiki

riffmongous wrote: »

So what, you thought we'd just be leaching off the richer countries forever?

We are one of the richest countries in the EU per capita. The average Irish person is wealthier than the average Italian or Spaniards.

blanch152

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I'm not arguing that that Ireland has benefited massively from eu membership. That is without doubt.

I'm saying that this budget deal is terrible for Ireland. An extra 2 billion a year. That is two billion that we cant actually afford to pay.

If you expect any real progress on housing or healthcare through increased spending you can forget it.

Think of it this way. Ireland announced a 7 billion stimulus package. 2 billion of that is now spent already on the eu budget.

More public housing? There is 2 billion euro less to spend
Etc.

Spain and Italy have been given 130 billion euro between them to spend.

It is a bad budget for Ireland. By Ireland I mean me,you and everyone else.

We have low carbon taxes.

We have low income taxes on below average earners.

We have low property taxes.

We have no water charges.

We have few local charges.

Time for us to pay our tax and play our part in helping Europe, after they helped us for years.

blanch152

Risteard81 wrote: »

No we shouldn't because the sovereignty and unity of the 32-County Irish Republic are inalienable and non-judicable.

The what?

Your post, like all such nationalistic posts, is so 1930s Europe, when national states took precedence over concern for one's fellow man.

Nationhood should never be about territory, it should be about shared culture and shared heritage. No nation needs to possess a land.

Widdensushi

ChikiChiki wrote: »

We are one of the richest countries in the EU per capita. The average Irish person is wealthier than the average Italian or Spaniards.

Because they have a black economy going strong so it appears that way

1st dalkey dalkey

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I'm not arguing that that Ireland has benefited massively from eu membership. That is without doubt.

I'm saying that this budget deal is terrible for Ireland. An extra 2 billion a year. That is two billion that we cant actually afford to pay.

If you expect any real progress on housing or healthcare through increased spending you can forget it.

Think of it this way. Ireland announced a 7 billion stimulus package. 2 billion of that is now spent already on the eu budget.

More public housing? There is 2 billion euro less to spend
Etc.

Spain and Italy have been given 130 billion euro between them to spend.

It is a bad budget for Ireland. By Ireland I mean me,you and everyone else.

This 2 billion a year is not an extra 2 billion. We paid 2 billion last year also.

Also, it is calculated by a formula that is used to calculate all members contributions. So is, in the first instance, very fair.

Where you might have a point is in the 'rebates' granted to certain countries.

The 'frugal four' of recent days have managed to get for themselves rebates of varying levels on their contributions. Ireland did not get one.

That might be seem as a failure on the part of our negotiators.

Podge_irl

The "frugal four" have been paying into the coffers for decades. We were never going to get a rebate after paying in for only one budget cycle.

Yurt2

blanch152 wrote: »

We have low carbon taxes.

We have low income taxes on below average earners.

We have low property taxes.

We have no water charges.

We have few local charges.

Time for us to pay our tax and play our part in helping Europe, after they helped us for years.

You've changed your tune after you made a claim in a thread where you said we have the lowest tax rate on average earners. Then you went silent when you were presented with OECD stats where Ireland is bang in the middle on taxing average earners, and countries like NZ, Austria, Sweden, the UK and Japan tax the average earner less than Ireland.

Look forward to your next breakdance on unverified claims

peter kern

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

You think that the EU are happy with Ireland's tax deals with multinationals?

Quite the opposite

do you think its fair that countries undercut each other and making rich multinationals richer?

micosoft

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

This 2 billion a year is not an extra 2 billion. We paid 2 billion last year also.

Also, it is calculated by a formula that is used to calculate all members contributions. So is, in the first instance, very fair.

Where you might have a point is in the 'rebates' granted to certain countries.

The 'frugal four' of recent days have managed to get for themselves rebates of varying levels on their contributions. Ireland did not get one.

That might be seem as a failure on the part of our negotiators.

The problem is the EU budget is enormously complex and multifaceted. I am willing to bet given how effective we have been at an EU level that there is good reasoning behind our approach. It's not just about our transfer into the pot. It's what we can get out. It's the goodwill we need in Brexit. And it's the more important matter of interest rates and making sure the EU approved the budget.

View

blanch152 wrote: »

The what?

Your post, like all such nationalistic posts, is so 1930s Europe, when national states took precedence over concern for one's fellow man.

Nationhood should never be about territory, it should be about shared culture and shared heritage. No nation needs to possess a land.

He comes across as an Irish version of a German “Reichsbürger” - ie a person who refuses to recognise the existence of the Bundesrepublik as they maintain that (one or other version of) the Reich still exists, so the former is therefore illegitimate.

clevtrev

I know that the thread is already highlighting the fact that we are making a disproportionate contribution to the EU budget.

Stats from the Eurostat website show where we really sit in the league of EU countries. They use a measure called the Actual Individual Consumption (AIC). The AIC looks at the amount of goods and services which households actually buy. The same level of income buys less in a more expensive country. We are well behind Germany, Sweden, and even Italy on this measure and even below the EU average. These stats really show the level of wealth in the country. There is also an interesting article in the Irish Times today on this

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/why-irish-households-are-not-after-all-among-the-best-off-in-the-eu-1.4311697

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/11005802/2-18062020-AP-EN.pdf/2469350f-ca14-6809-9a72-a4814893dcf2

List of EU countries by AIC and GDP

Luxembourg** 135 261
Germany 123 121
Austria 118 127
Denmark 116 129
Belgium 115 117
Netherlands 114 128
Finland 113 111
Sweden 112 120
France 109 106
Italy 99 95
Ireland 97 191
Cyprus 95 89
Spain 91 91
Lithuania 90 82
Portugal 86 79
Czechia 85 92
Slovenia 81 88
Malta 80 99
Poland 79 73
Romania 79 69
Greece 77 68
Estonia 75 84
Slovakia 73 74
Latvia 71 69
Hungary 67 73
Croatia 66 65
Bulgaria 59 53

ExMachina1000

peter kern wrote: »

do you think its fair that countries undercut each other and making rich multinationals richer?

Yes definitely

Bsharp

It's alot harder for the EU to get us to change our tax arrangements when we're net contributors.

Graham

Interesting when you sort by GDP rather than AIC.

Luxembourg 261
Ireland 191
Denmark 129
Netherlands 128
Austria 127
Germany 121
Sweden 120
Belgium 117
Finland 111
France 106
Malta 99
Italy 95
Czechia 92
Spain 91
Cyprus 89
Slovenia 88
Estonia 84
Lithuania 82
Portugal 79
Slovakia 74
Poland 73
Hungary 73
Romania 69
Latvia 69
Greece 68
Croatia 65
Bulgaria 53

I don't buy into the argument contributions should be decided purely relative to AIC. That would ignore surely ignore economic business to business activity .

ExMachina1000

Graham wrote: »

Interesting when you sort by GDP rather than AIC.

Luxembourg 261
Ireland 191
Denmark 129
Netherlands 128
Austria 127
Germany 121
Sweden 120
Belgium 117
Finland 111
France 106
Malta 99
Italy 95
Czechia 92
Spain 91
Cyprus 89
Slovenia 88
Estonia 84
Lithuania 82
Portugal 79
Slovakia 74
Poland 73
Hungary 73
Romania 69
Latvia 69
Greece 68
Croatia 65
Bulgaria 53

I don't buy into the argument contributions should be decided purely relative to AIC. That would ignore surely ignore economic business to business activity .

We are 5th highest overall contributor now.
MM came home with a handout of 1.6 billion and a bill of 16 billion as if it were a success.

On a per capita basis the Irish people will pay the EU twice what the German people and four times the amount the French will pay

The 1.6 billion wont even cover the money paid out in the temporary wage subsidy scheme.

Italy and Spain will share 130 billion in grants between them.

This has been terrible for Ireland. This has been terrible for all Irish taxpayers. Terrible for people who rely on social services. Terrible for infrastructure funding. Terrible for healthcare funding and so on

Timberrrrrrrr

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

We are 5th highest overall contributor now.
MM came home with a handout of 1.6 billion and a bill of 16 billion as if it were a success.

On a per capita basis the Irish people will pay the EU twice what the German people and four times the amount the French will pay

The 1.6 billion wont even cover the money paid out in the temporary wage subsidy scheme.

Italy and Spain will share 130 billion in grants between them.

This has been terrible for Ireland.

People with this attitude just want to take take take and never give back.

ExMachina1000

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

People with this attitude just want to take take take and never give back.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Let's see how long that opinion stands when people start to feel it in the pocket. When taxes are increased and austerity returns. When social services and public services are cut.

Let's see

KyussB

sameoldname wrote: »

To be fair, your solution for all government spending has been to just get the central bank to print it. I remember you arguing years ago under a different account name that you can just print money to give everyone who is unemployed a job or something along those lines. You never had a good answer for how to prevent hyper-inflation under such a plan as far as I can recall.

It's effectively the same account name - or recognizable as so.

I don't presently argue that for individual EU governments, as the bar for EU reform is too high. Since the EU budget is already determined at an EU level, though - that's the perfect place to start with such a reform.

I understand hyperinflation better than anyone on the forum, and have been blue in my face for years explaining how the triggers of hyperinflation are economic collapse, foreign-denominated debt, economic sanctions etc. etc. - that these things are almost always needed to get the ball rolling for hyperinflation, before money creation comes into the mix - that money creation on its own isn't typically a trigger, unless a government deliberately decides to default that way.

Don't know if you've been paying any attention for the last decade, but trillions are routinely printed and shoved into the hands of finance and corporations - i.e. predominantly wealthier sectors - these days, by central banks. People only scaremonger about hyperinflation when created money would go to government or everyday people, rather than just to the wealthy.

To suggest that ~1% worth of GNI worth of money creation for the EU budget - in a deflationary environment - will lead to hyperinflation, just displays ignorance and a likely following of discredited Austrian economics.

Graham

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

We are 5th highest overall contributor now.

Where do we come on the beneficiary rankings over the last few decades?

ExMachina1000

Graham wrote: »

Where do we come on the beneficiary rankings over the last few decades?

Do you have the answer?

Timberrrrrrrr

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Let's see how long that opinion stands when people start to feel it in the pocket. When taxes are increased and austerity returns. When social services and public services are cut.

Let's see

:rolleyes:

It's already been explained to you how this will be a positive and how Ireland will benefit more from this but hey you keep spouting your doomsday scenarios, if nothing else it makes the saner posters giggle.

Graham

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Do you have the answer?

I would have expected someone with such a vociferous opinion on our current contributions to have an understanding of the significant historical benefits we've received. Without such an understanding it's really just uninformed ranting.

Makes a bit of a mockery of your claims of unfair contributions.

ExMachina1000

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

:rolleyes:

It's already been explained to you how this will be a positive and how Ireland will benefit more from this but hey you keep spouting your doomsday scenarios, if nothing else it makes the saner posters giggle.

Ok friend.

We will see.
Peace

ExMachina1000

Graham wrote: »

I would have expected someone with such a vociferous opinion on our current contributions to have an understanding of the significant historical benefits we've received. Without such an understanding it's really just uninformed ranting.

Makes a bit of a mockery of your claims of unfair contributions.

Yeah. Good call I agree 100%

Nothing to see. Budget is entirely fair. MM got us a great deal. We as an economy are set to boom.
This government now has has the firepower to continue to pump money into struggling businesses.

We should also see our long term housing and healthcare issues being tackled. The 1.8 billion for cycling and walking infrastructure is also now guaranteed. The poorest in society need not worry anymore either.

It's all gravy

10000maniacs

Graham wrote: »

Interesting when you sort by GDP rather than AIC.

Luxembourg 261
Ireland 191
Denmark 129
Netherlands 128
Austria 127
Germany 121
Sweden 120
Belgium 117
Finland 111
France 106
Malta 99
Italy 95
Czechia 92
Spain 91
Cyprus 89
Slovenia 88
Estonia 84
Lithuania 82
Portugal 79
Slovakia 74
Poland 73
Hungary 73
Romania 69
Latvia 69
Greece 68
Croatia 65
Bulgaria 53

I don't buy into the argument contributions should be decided purely relative to AIC. That would ignore surely ignore economic business to business activity .

What?
GDP doesn’t do services - at least not very well. It is good at quantity, but lousy at quality. If the food or service improves in your local restaurant, GDP will not notice. Ditto, if an airline’s safety record improves. In fact, GDP might prefer a plane crash - so that it can build a new plane. Also goods shipped back to the USA from multinational companies based here will increase GDP but won't increase Ireland's wealth.

fly_agaric

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Nothing to see. Budget is entirely fair. MM got us a great deal. We as an economy are set to boom ...

Don't agree at all with the zero-sum terminology of "deals" etc or us winning at the EU budget + others losing, or disgusting selfishness of carping about potential contributions as a very wealthy state after a wet weekend of having to pony up some money like the other rich countries in the EU...but...

Setting all that aside...am curious how you would have approached it vs FF/FG (including both as I think these negotiations have been going on for a while now and the new budget is late)?

You seem to be aware of reality to some extent.

You don't advocate Ireland to leave the EU, you've also admitted that we have a serious geopolitical situation coming at us soon (likely a rocky end to the Brexit transition period).
We may need (further) support of all types if our big brother neighbour next door, who we are almost defenseless against on our own, decides to f--k us over somehow. So is your approach really still to go in, demand more money for Ireland, bang the table and threaten to veto till we get it?

lawred2

mick087 wrote: »

Leaving the EU would not be easy and would not be a good idea for Ireland at the moment.

I think within the next few years if the EU does not change then you might find opinions will change towards the EU.

Change in which ways specifically? From what to what?

mick087

lawred2 wrote: »

Change in which ways specifically? From what to what?

From it's we know whats best for you attitude.

One of the main players have left the EU and the EU has blamed eveyone but itself.
It needs to look inside itself and see the issues it has.

It needs to change into a more equal and democratic union.
equal for all not the few.

lawred2

mick087 wrote: »

From it's we know whats best for you attitude.

One of the main players have left the EU and the EU has blamed eveyone but itself.
It needs to look inside itself and see the issues it has.

It needs to change into a more equal and democratic union.
equal for all not the few.

None of that means anything other than possibly being adequately emotive to make it on to page 3 of a Brexit pamphlet..

Which issues in particular do you refer to? What needs to happen to create a more equal and democratic union? As you see it.