Ireland to contribute €16 billion more than it receives to EU in next 7 years

The_Conductor

Am I right- we're paying a little over twice as much per head of population here- than Germany, and Germany is getting all the kudos........

We have gotten royally shafted.

mick087

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

a couple of times you have said it or something very similar. what do you mean by it?

But not actually what you quoted me as saying i said?

blanch152

Bambi wrote: »

You might explain that noticeable jump our debt took in the chart.

Be sure to touch upon the findings of the Banking Inquiry report regarding one Mr Trichet, and the same tactics being applied to Greece during the same period, as stated by the former deputy head of the IMF. The compare it to how the ECB acted when Spain looked like it was going to the wall a few yearts later.


Or you can just recite the mantra that we all partied and move quickly on.

It wasn't that we all partied, it was just that we were the stupid ones to guarantee the debts of all the banks - that was the trigger being pulled. The fact that it took a few years for the bullet to blow the back of our head off is neither here nor there. We brought the problem on ourselves with the bank guarantee. That is the responsibility of Brian Lenihan and David McWilliams whose idea it was.

Dyr

The_Conductor wrote: »

Am I right- we're paying a little over twice as much per head of population here- than Germany, and Germany is getting all the kudos........

We have gotten royally shafted.

You'll generally find the call to "pay our share" comes from quarters who retain our post colonial inferiority complex and desperately seeks the approval of those they see as our betters. This is also why you see the oddly voiciferous reaction to any criticism of the EU, no matter how milquetoast it is.

Think of Samuel L Jacksons character in Django Unchained and you'll have a good mental picture of what you're dealing with.

mick087

awec wrote: »

Well what is "a generation" ?

You said every generation deserves a say, this implies you want regular referendums. I am wondering just how regular you are thinking?

Its a good question and deserves a good answer so i give you my prospective on it. This of course is not to be taken as fact or implemented this just an idea.

A generation vote maybe classed as every 25 years.

Every 25 years the citizens get to vote if they wish there country to remain in the EU or not.

If any country does leave then the EU, then the EU should ask itself what lessons can be learned? What can we do to change? How can we stop this happening again.

Of course if Public opinion changes then a referendum should be held to leave before the generation vote date was due.

ohnonotgmail

mick087 wrote: »

But not actually what you quoted me as saying i said?

mick087 wrote: »

Its a good question and deserves a good answer so i give you my prospective on it. This of course is not to be taken as fact or implemented this just an idea.

A generation vote maybe classed as every 25 years.

Every 25 years the citizens get to vote if they wish there country to remain in the EU or not.

If any country does leave then the EU, then the EU should ask itself what lessons can be learned? What can we do to change? How can we stop this happening again.

Of course if Public opinion changes then a referendum should be held to leave before the generation vote date due.

so that is exactly what you are saying. absolute nonsense of the highest order.

Dyr

blanch152 wrote: »

It wasn't that we all partied, it was just that we were the stupid ones to guarantee the debts of all the banks - that was the trigger being pulled. The fact that it took a few years for the bullet to blow the back of our head off is neither here nor there. We brought the problem on ourselves with the bank guarantee. That is the responsibility of Brian Lenihan and David McWilliams whose idea it was.

And who was it that put the gun our head and then insisted that Lenihan pull the trigger? Again, reference the Banking Inquiry report if you have to, or the comments of the late Minister Lenihan himself, or the comments of the then finance minister Noonan a few years later when the same gun was put to his head by the same person. Or the comments of the IMFs Mr Chopra regarding the ECBs role in the whole cluster****.


Then compare to the ECBs actions when Spain was going south a few years later and the ESM appeared to save them, as if by magic.

VinLieger

mick087 wrote: »

Its a good question and deserves a good answer so i give you my prospective on it. This of course is not to be taken as fact or implemented this just an idea.

A generation vote maybe classed as every 25 years.

Every 25 years the citizens get to vote if they wish there country to remain in the EU or not.

If any country does leave then the EU, then the EU should ask itself what lessons can be learned? What can we do to change? How can we stop this happening again.

Of course if Public opinion changes then a referendum should be held to leave before the generation vote date was due.

This is absolutely ridiculous, having a set referendum for something there is no call for is a waste of time and money, it also would make a mockery of our constitution and diminish the entire referendum process potentially putting us down the road of the ridiculously broad, ill defined and lack of planning advisory referendums the UK like to run.

You also have yet to answer why the EU gets a generational referendum in your opinion but none of the other constitutional changes need one?

You may honestly believe it is some twisted form of democracy but its really not.

Let me put it simply why this is so absolutely absurd. If we are allowed have generational votes on referendum previously ran why not have decisions on our entire system of government for the same reasons? Nobody alive today got a choice on the structure of our democracy, why shouldn't we be given the choice to scrap it all and start again for the exact same reasons you want your generational EU vote? Maybe next time we can choose a dictatorship, or a monarchy, you know, change it up a bit.......

Id honestly suggest you take some time to go back and redo the entire CSPE syllabus.

Francie Barrett

Bambi wrote: »

You'll generally find the call to "pay our share" comes from quarters who retain our post colonial inferiority complex and desperately seeks the approval of those they see as our betters.

I don't think that is the case.

Most people are pragmatic enough to weigh the costs of EU membership against the benefits that it confers. At the moment, it appears the benefits out weigh the costs, so most of us will tolerate an increased contribution. However, if that was to change, I am sure (most) Irish people would be flexible enough to change their opinion.

The real litmus test will come when the UK actually decouples from the EU when the transition period ends next year. If Britain can make Brexit the success they claim it will be, then it's only natural we'll have to reassess our position in the EU, not just our part of the EU budget contribution.

Graham

Bambi wrote: »

You'll generally find the call to "pay our share" comes from quarters who retain our post colonial inferiority complex and desperately seeks the approval of those they see as our betters.

Or those that understand the value of being a member of one of the largest markets in the world.

The_Conductor

Graham wrote: »

Or those that understand the value of being a member of one of the largest markets in the world.

Perhaps- but why are the Irish being asked to pay over twice as much, per head of population into the fund- as the Germans are?

It just seems to be that someone somewhere has seriously dropped the ball.

Chips Lovell

The_Conductor wrote: »

Perhaps- but why are the Irish being asked to pay over twice as much, per head of population into the fund- as the Germans are?

It just seems to be that someone somewhere has seriously dropped the ball.

What's your source for this?

The_Conductor

Chips Lovell wrote: »

What's your source for this?

I.e. the very first post in the thread.

Do a little googling- Germany has a population of just under 84 million- Ireland's population is roughly 4.9 million.......... Its fairly easy to figure the per head contributions- and Ireland's is > twice Germany's.

10000maniacs wrote: »

Ireland will contribute vastly more to the seven-year EU budget (which is separate to the recovery fund) than we get back. In fact, according to a German MEP who has the official figures, Ireland will contribute almost €16billion more than it receives, while Italy and Spain will be net beneficiaries.
Hmmm. Are we being taken for mugs?

Chips Lovell

The_Conductor wrote: »

I.e. the very first post in the thread.

As per my earlier post:

Chips Lovell wrote: »

That graphic has been shared around on Twitter the past few days. It originated on Deutsche Welle, but is dated from May, long before the budget was agreed.

AFAIK, no official figures have been released yet on member states net contributions. There's little point in having a row about this until the correct figures are available.

David Quinn in the Sunday Times this week pegged it at a little over €1 billion a year, but I think his figures were an estimate on his part too and not derived from any official stats.

Our gross contribution per capita will be higher than Germany's, since we've higher GNI per capita, but it won't be anywhere close to double.. I've seen no official breakdown yet of what net contributions per capita will look like.

The_Conductor

Net contributions (to be paid by 2058) to the EU Covid bailout fund:

France - EUR 780 / per person
Belgium - EUR 1180 / per person
Finland - EUR 1400 / per person
Germany - EUR 1580 / per person
Austria - EUR 1590 / per person
Sweden - EUR 1650 / per person
Netherlands - EUR 1800 / per person
Denmark - EUR 2105 / per person
Ireland - EUR 3,200 / per person
Luxembourg - EUR 5,600 / per person


This is ontop of a proposal to introduce an 'EU Digital Tax' to fund the remainder of the bailout fund by the EU Commission - which Ireland, the Netherlands and Luxembourg have all said no to.

Dyr

Graham wrote: »

Or those that understand the value of being a member of one of the largest markets in the world.

And yet again, a reduction to zero sum argument, this strange overreaction to any percieved criticism. Who said anything about leaving the single market?

We're talking about paying out more per capita than any country other than Luxemburg. Our European friends sticking the boot in for the Apple case result, after all our high GDP is thanks to our corporate tax rate, ha ha tough luck Paddy, means you pay even more

I actually think the recovery package is a good thing and shows that, at long last, even the Germans and Dutch have realised you need to pump money into economies to get them up and running again. Doesnt change the fact that we're being shafted, just like we here in 2008 and 2011.

Graham

10000maniacs wrote: »

Interesting to see the first line under that illustration when it was published by DW.com

A number of other questions are still open: How high should the discounts for net contributors on their contributions be?

Graham

Bambi wrote: »

this strange overreaction to any percieved criticism.

My mistake, I assume you meant this as a compliment:

Bambi wrote: »

You'll generally find the call to "pay our share" comes from quarters who retain our post colonial inferiority complex and desperately seeks the approval of those they see as our betters.

:rolleyes:

Dyr

Graham wrote: »

My mistake, I assume you meant this as a compliment:



:rolleyes:

So you decide that the shoe fits in your case and then you decide to get upset that it does?

Graham

A number of other questions are still open: How high should the discounts for net contributors on their contributions be?

A pretty relevant detail, without which we've no idea what the Irish contribution will be.

Chips Lovell

Graham wrote: »

A number of other questions are still open: How high should the discounts for net contributors on their contributions be?

A pretty relevant detail, without which we've no idea what the Irish contribution will be.

There was a proposal to abolish rebates, but they were retained again (presumably as a concession to those member states resisting mutualised debt:

• Denmark: EUR 377 million;
• Germany: EUR 3 671 million;
• The Netherlands: EUR 1 921 million;
• Austria: EUR 565 million;
• Sweden: EUR 1 069 million.

micosoft

Bambi wrote: »

So you decide that the shoe fits in your case and then you decide to get upset that it does?

Simply put you are suggesting a transactional approach whereas the Government has a strategic approach. Most folk know which approach demonstrates confidence and which represents one.

As for wearing shoes. The shoes you wear lead us straight back to kowtowing in London.

MacronvFrugals

blanch152 wrote: »

It wasn't that we all partied, it was just that we were the stupid ones to guarantee the debts of all the banks - that was the trigger being pulled. The fact that it took a few years for the bullet to blow the back of our head off is neither here nor there. We brought the problem on ourselves with the bank guarantee. That is the responsibility of Brian Lenihan and David McWilliams whose idea it was.

Dont forget the Irish times owning a property website while in the next office pumping out articles telling people to get on the ladder.

BOI gave out more buy to lets in 2007 than first time mortgages, a house of cards waiting to fall.

I remember talking to a Finnish friend and he said "will the Irish ever grow up, using a property asset bubble and MNC grey money to fuel GDP can only last so long"

micosoft

mick087 wrote: »

Its a good question and deserves a good answer so i give you my prospective on it. This of course is not to be taken as fact or implemented this just an idea.

A generation vote maybe classed as every 25 years.

Every 25 years the citizens get to vote if they wish there country to remain in the EU or not.

If any country does leave then the EU, then the EU should ask itself what lessons can be learned? What can we do to change? How can we stop this happening again.

Of course if Public opinion changes then a referendum should be held to leave before the generation vote date was due.

What else can we vote on every generation? Could we vote to rejoin the UK? Could we vote on divorce? I suspect there are probably more people wanted a referendum on both divorce and abortion than "Ireexit".

Here's another idea. We hold a referendum every four years on who should govern us. If you want to get a referendum on the ballet for this in Ireland you need to get a euro-skeptic party elected in just like the UK.

The problem is the vast majority of Irish people (over 80%) fundamentally disagree with your undemocratic idea of foisting a referendum on them they did not ask for.

Like the people of the UK and the rest of Europe we are learning daily why the UK voted leave. Perhaps you should read this.

fly_agaric

Bambi wrote: »

This is also why you see the oddly voiciferous reaction to any criticism of the EU, no matter how milquetoast it is.

Think you've claimed the EU was responsible for the banking crisis and austerity here. You've claimed the EU/other member states will discriminate against Ireland in current budget.
It's not that milquetoast. Also, on here (this forum) the anti-EU noise is a constant. It's one of the pet subjects of the forum (we all know what they are).
Have never seen the like of it in "real life". You can't expect no reaction to it.

Bambi wrote: »

Think of Samuel L Jacksons character in Django Unchained and you'll have a good mental picture of what you're dealing with.

This isn't milquetoast either. You've compared people who believe Ireland should contribute to next EU budget & pandemic stimulus + think our politicians should not spit the dummy at the EU summit over it on our behalf to "house negros", collaborators/shoneens or the like. People who usually get strung up as traitors. A bit extreme tbf but you should just own it & not call it "mild criticism".

View

Bambi wrote: »

We're up to our neck in debt because the EU decided that we were expendable to save Spain. We've given plenty already.

Actually the vast majority of the debt we borrowed was used to fund our expenditure on public services. Our government went to great lengths to ensure that the monies borrowed were not used for the banks.

View

mick087 wrote: »

Do you think democracy is never in your lifetime having an opportunity of voting to remain or leave the EU?

In each and every general election, each and every one of us has the opportunity to:
a) stand for election on an anti-EU membership party platform (either in a new or pre-existing party),
b) to campaign for it, and,
c) to vote for it

Should an anti-EU membership majority be returned to the Dail, they can immediately vote Ireland out of the EU by a simple majority vote in the Dail and then formally trigger art 50 as a result.

As such, we have all had multiple opportunities to vote on leaving the EU since there is no constitutional or legal requirement for any referendum to be held on leaving the EU, merely an anti-EU membership majority in the Dail.

Dyr

fly_agaric wrote: »

Think you've claimed the EU was responsible for the banking crisis and austerity here. You've claimed the EU/other member states will discriminate against Ireland in current budget.
It's not that milquetoast. Also, on here (this forum) the anti-EU noise is a constant. It's one of the pet subjects of the forum (we all know what they are).
Have never seen the like of it in "real life". You can't expect no reaction to it.



This isn't milquetoast either. You've compared people who believe Ireland should contribute to next EU budget & pandemic stimulus + think our politicians should not spit the dummy at the EU summit over it on our behalf to "house negros", collaborators/shoneens or the like. People who usually get strung up as traitors. A bit extreme tbf but you should just own it & not call it "mild criticism".

Did I say that any of my posts were milquetoast criticisms of the EU? No, I said that any criticism of the EU, even the most milquetoast, is responded to with a strange level of invective from some parties around here. Thats a fair comment

I don't think that the EU were responsible for the bank guarantee, the level of the debt and the level of austerity that followed, its just a matter of record.

The Finance Minister at the time stated that the ECB forced the bank guarantee. The next Finance Minister stated that the ECB made a similar threat to ensure no senior bondholders were burned a few years later, The banking inquiry also found that the ECB made an explicit threat to ensure the Irish government did not burn any bondholders.

A former deputy director IMF stated that the EU imposed a level of debt and austerity on Ireland that it felt was entirely excessive and that the ECB acted solely in the EU's interests.

So yeah, I don't "think" anything in that regards, I dont have to, the facts are there.

mick087

VinLieger wrote: »

This is absolutely ridiculous, having a set referendum for something there is no call for is a waste of time and money, it also would make a mockery of our constitution and diminish the entire referendum process potentially putting us down the road of the ridiculously broad, ill defined and lack of planning advisory referendums the UK like to run.

You also have yet to answer why the EU gets a generational referendum in your opinion but none of the other constitutional changes need one?

You may honestly believe it is some twisted form of democracy but its really not.

Let me put it simply why this is so absolutely absurd. If we are allowed have generational votes on referendum previously ran why not have decisions on our entire system of government for the same reasons? Nobody alive today got a choice on the structure of our democracy, why shouldn't we be given the choice to scrap it all and start again for the exact same reasons you want your generational EU vote? Maybe next time we can choose a dictatorship, or a monarchy, you know, change it up a bit.......

Id honestly suggest you take some time to go back and redo the entire CSPE syllabus.

Self-determination and democracy and then more democarcy and then even more democarcy especially with the ability for the
citizens to remove people from office, this is such an important consideration in determining the democratic health of a country.
The EU democratic health is not in a good way.

My Generation vote was an idea a starting point to build on. Yes its bold yes its controversial yes a massive thing to take on. But it gets the EU talking it get the Citizens talking. We could easily do this when voting for MEPS. A seperate ballot sheet asking do we wish to remain in the EU or not.

But no knock the idea down before it starts. No change required all is well we know whats best for you attitude continues.


The EU needs to change or states within the EU will fall under dictatorships, there are some very nasty groups getting bigger with in the EU.

View

Bambi wrote: »

Did I say that any of my posts were milquetoast criticisms of the EU? No, I said that any criticism of the EU, even the most milquetoast, is responded to with a strange level of invective from some parties around here. Thats a fair comment

I don't think that the EU were responsible for the bank guarantee, the level of the debt and the level of austerity that followed, its just a matter of record.

The Finance Minister at the time stated that the ECB forced the bank guarantee. The next Finance Minister stated that the ECB made a similar threat to ensure no senior bondholders were burned a few years later, The banking inquiry also found that the ECB made an explicit threat to ensure the Irish government did not burn any bondholders.

A former deputy director IMF stated that the EU imposed a level of debt and austerity on Ireland that it felt was entirely excessive and that the ECB acted solely in the EU's interests.

So yeah, I don't "think" anything in that regards, I dont have to, the facts are there.

Our Finance Minister at the time introduced the bank guarantee and subsequently presented it to the ECB as a fait accompli. He, like his successor, had a vested political interest in misrepresenting what happened.