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Ireland to contribute €16 billion more than it receives to EU in next 7 years

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    #542
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 18,167 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    mick087 wrote: »
    I said it was an idea that is what said an example something to think about.


    An incredibly bad idea as has been explained to you numerous times at this stage yet you still refuse to engage with any adequate reasons beyond your bizarre twisted take on it being "democratic".

    mick087 wrote: »
    No i don't think it would a good idea to vote on every referendum result we have done since the founding of the state.


    Why? I want you to explain why the EU membership is different? Your argument is you never got to have your say regarding it but you also never got to have your say on an uncountable number of other issues so why do you similarly not think we should have generational referendums on those?


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    #543
    mick087
    Registered Users Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭mick087


    VinLieger wrote: »
    An incredibly bad idea
    An incredibly bad idea as has been explained to you numerous times at this stage yet you still refuse to engage with any adequate reasons beyond your bizarre twisted take on it being "democratic".

    Great ideas can start off as bad ideas.
    So one must except what one is told when something has been explained. This is my point the we know whats best for you attitude. This is the reason the EU will not survive.

    Why? I want you to explain why the EU membership is different? Your argument is you never got to have your say regarding it but you also never got to have your say on an uncountable number of other issues so why do you similarly not think we should have generational referendums on those?

    Different to what a golf Club? different to the United states of America?
    Is that what your asking me to explain to you?

    Correct i never have had an opportunity to vote on EU membership.

    I have always had my say on things id be interested in, be it amongst friends family work colleagues i will as you will always have your say on almost any subject you would like a say on.


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    #544
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 18,167 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    mick087 wrote: »
    Great ideas can start off as bad ideas.
    So one must except what one is told when something has been explained. This is my point the we know whats best for you attitude. This is the reason the EU will not survive.

    Different to what a golf Club? different to the United states of America?
    Is that what your asking me to explain to you?

    Correct i never have had an opportunity to vote on EU membership.

    I have always had my say on things id be interested in, be it amongst friends family work colleagues i will as you will always have your say on almost any subject you would like a say on.

    First of all learn how to use the quote system, its not that hard

    Secondly as has been explained to you again numerous times every time you've participated in a General Election you are having your say on EU membership as we do not require a referendum to leave the EU, neither did the brits in fact. It simply requires a Dail vote, so next time vote for an anti-EU party and thats you having your say.

    FYI that's Democracy and not your bizarre idea of it.

    Thirdly thanks for confirming your reasoning for wanting the generational referendum as being completely inconsistent and idiotically narrow minded.


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    #545
    mick087
    Registered Users Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭mick087


    VinLieger wrote: »
    First of all learn how to use the quote system, its not that hard

    Secondly as has been explained to you again numerous times every time you've participated in a General Election you are having your say on EU membership as we do not require a referendum to leave the EU, neither did the brits in fact. It simply requires a Dail vote, so next time vote for an anti-EU party and thats you having your say.

    FYI that's Democracy and not your bizarre idea of it.

    Thirdly thanks for confirming your reasoning for wanting the generational referendum as being completely inconsistent and idiotically narrow minded.


    :eek:


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    #546
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    mick087 wrote:
    Why? I want you to explain why the EU membership is different? Your argument is you never got to have your say regarding it but you also never got to have your say on an uncountable number of other issues so why do you similarly not think we should have generational referendums on those?

    You really should read up on how representative parliamentary democracy works and how it interacts with the Irish constitution. Any Junior Cert student should be able to point you towards sources.


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    #547
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    mick087 wrote: »
    All what you state here is pointing to you wanting a Untied states of Europe.
    You are never going to achieve this not only is there inequality in each state there is inequality between states to.

    Germany have never voted on a referendum be it joining the EU or common market.

    In Germany the right is once again on the rise because concerns the people have are not being listened to.

    Yes i agree our neutrality is fake and we should be doing more to make sure our neutrality is real.

    Its all good and well saying we should align more when it comes to the militarily. Are you going to sign up to join a European EU army, will you want your kids to join a European EU army.

    There is no mention of “United States of Europe” anywhere in the EU Treaties, so it is not a goal of the member states of the EU.

    In addition, at no stage, has any EU country ever formally adopted a policy in favour of a United States of Europe at domestic level, much less formally proposed that idea for discussion, never mind adoption, at ECs/EU level.

    And, almost the same applies to the “EU Army” guff that has been trotted out at every referendum since our membership referendum in 72. As six EU countries are either non-aligned or neutral, there is no reason to believe the current situation will change. Were the other NATO EU countries interested in forming an “EU Army”, they could have done it years ago, outside the EU structures, and there would have been nothing we could have done to stop them (There is no “trademark” on “EU Army” and just as Ukraine, had it wanted to do, could do nothing to stop the EU countries launching a common currency and calling it the Euro, neither could we). Indeed that remains their sovereign rights shoukd they wish to do so in future.

    As such your “United States of Europe” claims are just the usual (British) Brexiter nonsense - and you really should question whether your aligning with their world view would benefit Ireland.


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    #548
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    mick087 wrote: »
    This is my point the we know whats best for you attitude. This is the reason the EU will not survive.

    Eurosceptics and assorted extreme political groups around Europe (fascists + far left parties), have been confidently predicting the doom of the EU for a long time. As long as I've been alive + paying any attention to politics I think.
    Suppose like a stopped clock they might be right someday.
    I wonder what bright and shiny future the right & left wing nuts around Europe have in store for us all? With a bit of luck I won't be around to see it...:pac:


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    #549
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    fly_agaric wrote: »
    Eurosceptics and assorted extreme political groups around Europe (fascists + far left parties), have been confidently predicting the doom of the EU for a long time. As long as I've been alive + paying any attention to politics I think.
    Suppose like a stopped clock they might be right someday.
    I wonder what bright and shiny future the right & left wing nuts around Europe have in store for us all? With a bit of luck I won't be around to see it...:pac:

    Indeed and it’s noticeable that they always have an attitude of “they know what’s best for us” even though their view is the minority view.


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    #550
    mick087
    Registered Users Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭mick087


    View wrote: »
    There is no mention of “United States of Europe” anywhere in the EU Treatie.

    There is no mention of “United States of Europe” anywhere in the EU Treaties, so it is not a goal of the member states of the EU.
    Totally agree and i hope it stays that way. I was commenting on a poster who IMO was hinting at such. Again to be clear there is no mention of a United States of Europe.

    In addition, at no stage, has any EU country ever formally adopted a policy in favour of a United States of Europe at domestic level, much less formally proposed that idea for discussion, never mind adoption, at ECs/EU level.
    Again i Totally agree with and i have never stated otherwise.


    And, almost the same applies to the “EU Army” guff that has been trotted out at every referendum since our membership referendum in 72. As six EU countries are either non-aligned or neutral, there is no reason to believe the current situation will change. Were the other NATO EU countries interested in forming an “EU Army”, they could have done it years ago, outside the EU structures, and there would have been nothing we could have done to stop them (There is no “trademark” on “EU Army” and just as Ukraine, had it wanted to do, could do nothing to stop the EU countries launching a common currency and calling it the Euro, neither could we). Indeed that remains their sovereign rights shoukd they wish to do so in future.
    This is something i do have concerns about please read my concerns about why i voted againt the Libsbon treaty.

    As such your “United States of Europe” claims are just the usual (British) Brexiter nonsense - and you really should question whether your aligning with their world view would benefit Ireland.
    I made no claims of a United States of Europe i was commenting on a poster who IMO was hinting at such.


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    #551
    mick087
    Registered Users Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭mick087


    fly_agaric wrote: »
    left wing nuts around Europe have in store for us all? With a bit of luck I won't be around to see it...:pac:

    I carnt speak for all but myself equity in health education housing and wealth.
    With a bit of luck your kids will see this equity if you wish not to.


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    #552
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    View wrote: »
    Indeed and it’s noticeable that they always have an attitude of “they know what’s best for us” even though their view is the minority view.

    Yes. Such groups also imo view democracy as a tool that they can use to get their way (e.g. dodgy referendums) rather than a principle.
    If that tool doesn't serve them well any more or they have attained what they want politically, they are always quite alright with some authoritarianism.
    All in a good cause as they see it of course, with deserving people on the other end of the boot.


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    #553
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    mick087 wrote: »
    I carnt speak for all but myself equity in health education housing and wealth.
    With a bit of luck your kids will see this equity if you wish not to.

    Don't think any of the Eurosceptic policies/options floated (going from most extreme to least: getting rid of the EU (or EU collapsing?), winding the clock back on the treaties to EEC days or before, Ireland leaving the EU, Ireland holding 'Irexit' referendums on EU membership every few years, Ireland vetoing the new budget because we have to pay too much) will result in such equ[al]ity, but I suppose you never know. Sometimes the monkey really does come up with Shakespeare. Just requires faith!


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    #554
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    mick087 wrote: »
    I carnt speak for all but myself equity in health education housing and wealth.
    With a bit of luck your kids will see this equity if you wish not to.

    And what’s to stop you campaigning for either of those while we remain within the EU? Leaving the EU would definitely make both less likely to happen as it would cause a massive hit to our public finances.


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    #555
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    mick087 wrote: »
    There is no mention of “United States of Europe” anywhere in the EU Treaties, so it is not a goal of the member states of the EU.
    Totally agree and i hope it stays that way. I was commenting on a poster who IMO was hinting at such. Again to be clear there is no mention of a United States of Europe.

    In addition, at no stage, has any EU country ever formally adopted a policy in favour of a United States of Europe at domestic level, much less formally proposed that idea for discussion, never mind adoption, at ECs/EU level.
    Again i Totally agree with and i have never stated otherwise.


    And, almost the same applies to the “EU Army” guff that has been trotted out at every referendum since our membership referendum in 72. As six EU countries are either non-aligned or neutral, there is no reason to believe the current situation will change. Were the other NATO EU countries interested in forming an “EU Army”, they could have done it years ago, outside the EU structures, and there would have been nothing we could have done to stop them (There is no “trademark” on “EU Army” and just as Ukraine, had it wanted to do, could do nothing to stop the EU countries launching a common currency and calling it the Euro, neither could we). Indeed that remains their sovereign rights shoukd they wish to do so in future.
    This is something i do have concerns about please read my concerns about why i voted againt the Libsbon treaty.

    As such your “United States of Europe” claims are just the usual (British) Brexiter nonsense - and you really should question whether your aligning with their world view would benefit Ireland.
    I made no claims of a United States of Europe i was commenting on a poster who IMO was hinting at such.

    You, not the other poster, are the one who raised the “United States of Europe” Brexiter concept. The other poster did not mention that concept at all.

    Lastly, while I can’t remember in full (or find the post in which you covered) your concerns, from memory two of them were “Federalism” and “Neutrality”. Neither of the wild claims about these have come to pass after Lisbon - just as they didn't after every other EU Treaty referendum in which those were raised.

    Had the Oireachtas a genuine interest in ending neutrality, they don’t need an EU Treaty to do it, since a vote to join NATO could be passed by the Oireachtas anytime it wants and most people would cheer it on when our politicians wrapped themselves in the Stars and Stripes and said that we’ll “stand by our American cousins”.


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