Ireland to contribute €16 billion more than it receives to EU in next 7 years

Dytalus

MrMusician18 wrote: »

That's a bit harsh. There was no quid pro quo that I remember, it was the other nations that decided at the time to be net contributors to assist Ireland's development.

They 'decided' the same way we decided. By joining the EU and agreeing the mechanism by which contributions are calculated. Because they recognised (as our government now recognises) that by assisting the development of less developed and struggling members of the Union the Union as a whole becomes richer and stronger.

If you make the people of Bulgaria wealthier and more stable, you get a larger number of customers, and more money, for your own products and services. This is a large part of why the EU's structural and investment funds exist.

Mr. Karate

Fred Cryton wrote: »

So we become rich by receiving huge amounts of EU funds over the years and having free access to the EU single market, and now simpletons are complaining because we now have to be a net contributor?

The Country is in no position to be contributing €16 Billion. These two parties racked up over €230 Billion in debt already. If this was a hundred years or so ago their heads would have already been chopped off by now. Certainly not re elected back into power. And this is after Leo quadrupled our payments to the WHO because he wanted to virtue signal after Trump pulled out of the WHO.

Idbatterim

I believe much of the EU money is meant to go on infrastructure? then why is ours so bloody appalling?!

Fred Cryton

Mr. Karate wrote: »

The Country is in no position to be contributing €16 Billion. These two parties racked up over €230 Billion in debt already. If this was a hundred years or so ago their heads would have already been chopped off by now. Certainly not re elected back into power. And this is after Leo quadrupled our payments to the WHO because he wanted to virtue signal after Trump pulled out of the WHO.

Do people who like to bring up our national debt realise that every country in the world other than oil rich Norway have an enormous national debt, often well exceeding ours as a percentage of national income?

Mr. Karate

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Do people who like to bring up our national debt realise that every country in the world other than oil rich Norway have an enormous national debt, often well exceeding ours as a percentage of national income?

A Country the size of Ireland has NO business being €230+Billion in debt.

ohnonotgmail

Idbatterim wrote: »

I believe much of the EU money is meant to go on infrastructure? then why is ours so bloody appalling?!

do you remember driving between our major cities before they built motorways?

Chips Lovell

That graphic has been shared around on Twitter the past few days. It originated on Deutsche Welle, but is dated from May, long before the budget was agreed.

AFAIK, no official figures have been released yet on member states net contributions. There's little point in having a row about this until the correct figures are available.

MrMusician18

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Why is single market participation not good enough? It costs money to enforce and regulate a huge single market. Without that single market, you can be sure we would be impoverished as companies would have to move to the big markets on the continent.



A lot of the money going to Poland is being spent on building new highways criss-crossing the country. This will benefit everyone, and create new markets for higher value Irish goods. Exactly as what happened here.

It doesn't cost €1.1tn to regulate the single market.

Idbatterim

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

do you remember driving between our major cities before they built motorways?

they spent a fortune on the roads, but rail is a disgrace and so is the water infrastructure... still dumping raw sewage into our rivers and oceans in 2020!

the transport systems in dublin and cork are comedy, absolute comedy!

MrMusician18

Dytalus wrote: »

They 'decided' the same way we decided. By joining the EU and agreeing the mechanism by which contributions are calculated. Because they recognised (as our government now recognises) that by assisting the development of less developed and struggling members of the Union the Union as a whole becomes richer and stronger.

If you make the people of Bulgaria wealthier and more stable, you get a larger number of customers, and more money, for your own products and services. This is a large part of why the EU's structural and investment funds exist.

They're is a good argument about proximity to the investment especially in Ireland case. Increasing the prosperity of Eastern Europe will have diminishing returns as the money goes further and further east. So even if Europe turns Bulgaria into the most prosperous nation on earth, the impact of their relative wealth is going to be negligible here.

trashcan

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Time for us to walk away?

We've had our fun money, and that's all that matters ?

Mr. Karate

Mr. Karate wrote: »

The Country is in no position to be contributing €16 Billion. These two parties racked up over €230 Billion in debt already. If this was a hundred years or so ago their heads would have already been chopped off by now. Certainly not re elected back into power. And this is after Leo quadrupled our payments to the WHO because he wanted to virtue signal after Trump pulled out of the WHO.

What the **** does that have to do with the eu budget agreement?

Should we just all sulk in the corner until we want to play again?

We would be absolutely ****ed without the eu. We would never have even gotten close to the Celtic tiger if not for the eu funding is at the start.

Idbatterim wrote: »

they spent a fortune on the roads, but rail is a disgrace and so is the water infrastructure... still dumping raw sewage into our rivers and oceans in 2020!

the transport systems in dublin and cork are comedy, absolute comedy!

So let's leave the eu because the money they have us wasn't spent how you wanted?

jimmycrackcorm

Mr. Karate wrote: »

A Country the size of Ireland has NO business being €230+Billion in debt.

On what basis? Over 11 years we will spend that much on social welfare alone.
Perhaps we have no business spending that much on SW? After all the vast bulk of that debt comes from day-to-day government spending on generous SW and public sector pay

TuringBot47

I'd be all for helping the EU as a whole.
But when liberal countries in the EU allow an influx of non-EU immigrants from Africa and Middle East countries, typically through the southern EU countries and we have to subsidize that, there has to be a point to say stop. I'd say at some point in the future there will need to be military intervention to stop uncontrolled migration of Africans to Europe.

We are we letting Africans into the EU and even into Ireland ?
Who is behind it ?
Is it nameless economists trying to say we need to import more people to meet pension and workforce demands ? If that's the case it's better to subsidize existing EU citizens to have larger families.
If it's some liberal bleeding heart thing to let "refugees" in, then women and children should be let in, not adult men.
Although that brings about it's own problems, with single mothers not able to control their teenage sons.


I've read about broad conspiracy theories about trying to get other countries to start to accept Africans because climate change is going to force non-Equatorial countries to accept massive numbers of them in the next 50 years with climate change.


Look at all the adverts on TV... they're slipping in happy family images of interracial couples every 15 minutes. Who is behind that ?
Is it just lazy marketing... trying to throw in as many market segments into one advert scene? Or just English marketing, where they had 40 or 50 years of mixed marriages from their colonial past and immigration policies.

Topgear on Dave

trashcan wrote: »

We've had our fun money, and that's all that matters ?

It's time for us to return to our traditional strengths.

Trading in spuds and emigration.

Mr. Karate

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

What the **** does that have to do with the eu budget agreement?

Should we just all sulk in the corner until we want to play again?

We would be absolutely ****ed without the eu. We would never have even gotten close to the Celtic tiger if not for the eu funding is at the start.

I don't mind contributing, but not €16 Billion. We're not in a position to pay that much at this time. We're also ****ed because of the Eu's One size fits all economic policy. They're part of the reason for the Country excessive debt. Not just because of FF/FG's fecklessness.

antimatterx

We have been taking other countries money since we joined the EU. Their money transformed this country, and now it's are turn to help other countries grow. You should be happy our small country is in such a position to make a big contribution. It shows how far we have come.

Mr. Karate

antimatterx wrote: »

We have been taking other countries money since we joined the EU. Their money transformed this country, and now it's are turn to help other countries grow. You should be happy our small country is in such a position to make a big contribution. It shows how far we have come.

We're not in a position to make such a big contribution.

theological

10000maniacs wrote: »

Ireland will contribute vastly more to the seven-year EU budget (which is separate to the recovery fund) than we get back. In fact, according to a German MEP who has the official figures, Ireland will contribute almost €16billion more than it receives, while Italy and Spain will be net beneficiaries.
Hmmm. Are we being taken for mugs?

The UK left just at the right time.

The problem with the EU is that it continues claiming that the answer to every single crisis is "more Europe". Or rather every crisis is an opportunity to take more control and more sovereignty from member states.

Why is there never a scenario where the answer could be "less Europe" and more national sovereignty?

antimatterx

Mr. Karate wrote: »

We're not in a position to make such a big contribution.

We have plenty of money. Lets not pretend we don't.

Sonics2k

Idbatterim wrote: »

they spent a fortune on the roads, but rail is a disgrace and so is the water infrastructure... still dumping raw sewage into our rivers and oceans in 2020!

the transport systems in dublin and cork are comedy, absolute comedy!

That's more on the Irish government more than the EU though.

The EU overall has given a lot more to Ireland than they have taken from us. Leaving the EU would be a big mistake.

MrMusician18

theological wrote: »

The UK left just at the right time.

The problem with the EU is that it continues claiming that the answer to every single crisis is "more Europe". Or rather every crisis is an opportunity to take more control and more sovereignty from member states.

h the EU is that it continues claiming that the answer to every single crisis is "more Europe". Or rather every crisis is an opportunity to take more control and more sovereignty from member states.


h the EU is that it continues claiming that the answer to every single crisis is "more Europe". Or rather every crisis is an opportunity to take more control and more sovereignty from member states.

Why is there never a scenario where the answer could be "less Europe" and more national sovereignty?

Usually it's because the solution to common problems depends on cooperation to find common solutions, not "I'll do my own thing, thanks".

Podge_irl

theological wrote: »

The UK left just at the right time.

The problem with the EU is that it continues claiming that the answer to every single crisis is "more Europe". Or rather every crisis is an opportunity to take more control and more sovereignty from member states.

"The EU" (which continues to be a misnomer in these discussions) resisted any kind of mutualised debt for well over a decade. It has taken a global pandemic to bring a limited version of it into effect and even at that it has been pushed more towards loans than the grants that many originally wanted.

theological

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Usually it's because the solution to common problems depends on cooperation to find common solutions, not "I'll do my own thing, thanks".

The problems in member states aren't "common" really though. Germany is pretty different to Bulgaria for example. There's no reason why the better decision in some scenarios could be that member states take more control of certain policy areas rather than less.

The problem with "common" solutions is that they are never granular enough to deal with particulars. An example would be the ECB interest rates for example. These are set in Frankfurt for the whole Eurozone area, rather than member states being able to set their own monetary policy based on their own particular needs in a financial crisis. The needs in Germany on this particular topic could be very different to the needs in Cyprus for example. The UK benefited from independence in monetary policy during the last recession.

Podge_irl wrote: »

"The EU" (which continues to be a misnomer in these discussions) resisted any kind of mutualised debt for well over a decade. It has taken a global pandemic to bring a limited version of it into effect and even at that it has been pushed more towards loans than the grants that many originally wanted.

The argument is still there for "why did the EU even need to go there?". Why couldn't member states have raised finance for their own needs on the bond market?

FutureTeashock

I simply can't believe some on here are trying to spin this as a good deal for Ireland!

This is economic rape of a tiny Island -- bailing out Spain and Italy -- what the fu cuk!?

The deranged Irish political establishment see themselves as one of the big boys and enslave future generations in debt to serve their delusions of grandeur.

This is sick!

Das Reich

10000maniacs wrote: »

Ireland will contribute vastly more to the seven-year EU budget (which is separate to the recovery fund) than we get back. In fact, according to a German MEP who has the official figures, Ireland will contribute almost €16billion more than it receives, while Italy and Spain will be net beneficiaries.
Hmmm. Are we being taken for mugs?

Time to Italy to get some money back them before leaving the EU.

MrMusician18

theological wrote: »

The problems in member states aren't "common" really though. Germany is pretty different to Bulgaria for example. There's no reason why the better decision in some scenarios could be that member states take more control of certain policy areas rather than less.

The problem with "common" solutions is that they are never granular enough to deal with particulars. An example would be the ECB interest rates for example. These are set in Frankfurt for the whole Eurozone area, rather than member states being able to set their own monetary policy based on their own particular needs in a financial crisis. The needs in Germany on this particular topic could be very different to the needs in Cyprus for example. The UK benefited from independence in monetary policy during the last recession.



The argument is still there for "why did the EU even need to go there?". Why couldn't member states have raised finance for their own needs on the bond market?

You could argue that granularity in policy isn't appropriate at any level though. Low interest rates might suit Donegal but not suit Dublin.

The reason coordinated or common solutions are desirable is because decisions don't exist in a vacuume. One states actions in a policy area well often have consequences for it's neighbors.

As to why member states can't raise money on the markets themselves, well that's a long story of mismanagement meaning they carry high debt levels already likely meaning that they won't be able to get further borrowings on the open market.

My own personal complaint with these deals is that the need for genuine solidarity was only recognised by the EU when two big member states shook the tree. When Ireland sought loans to keep the show on the road, the interest rate was punitive at 6%, while Italy and Spain will now enjoy low interest loans and grants.

Looks like there are different flavors of solidarity within the Union, the bigger you are the sweeter it is.

listermint

This is one of those threads


Isn't it.


They come along often and I struggle to see where our free education went to.

fly_agaric

Deleted User wrote: »

German jobs and prosperity depend on demand for their products from within the E.U..
Irish GDP and GNP figures are just distorted due to marketing the Country as a tax haven within the trading block to multinationals who produce little here.
A German Man auf der Strasse should be happier than an Irish man on the street.

We've always battled at EU level to keep our cozy arrangements with the multinationals and ability to give them a good tax rate in exchange for jobs and revenue. People can get very touchy about our rights regarding it (I recall a thread about Apple recently...). Can hardly cry when it makes us a bit of an outlier and distorts GDP of our economy, resulting in larger contribution to the EU budget. You cannot have it every way.
Moreso than Germany our prosperity depends on the easy access to wider EU market for what is produced here (among other things).

edit: not your post so much, but the hypocrisy and selfishness of some of the posts on this thread is quite breathtaking!

theological

listermint wrote: »

This is one of those threads

Isn't it.

They come along often and I struggle to see where our free education went to.

Yeah, I mean I wonder why people often just make ad hominems rather than making a reasoned argument for why this nebulous and ever expanding European project is a good idea.

MrMusician18 wrote: »

You could argue that granularity in policy isn't appropriate at any level though. Low interest rates might suit Donegal but not suit Dublin.

The reason coordinated or common solutions are desirable is because decisions don't exist in a vacuume. One states actions in a policy area well often have consequences for it's neighbors.

As to why member states can't raise money on the markets themselves, well that's a long story of mismanagement meaning they carry high debt levels already likely meaning that they won't be able to get further borrowings on the open market.

My own personal complaint with these deals is that the need for genuine solidarity was only recognised by the EU when two big member states shook the tree. When Ireland sought loans to keep the show on the road, the interest rate was punitive at 6%, while Italy and Spain will now enjoy low interest loans and grants.

Looks like there are different flavors of solidarity within the Union, the bigger you are the sweeter it is.

Sure, there's obviously rational limits on either side. But on a supranational level, I think it is a bad idea to create policies that are unable to accommodate significant differences between countries.

Unless you're of the mind that the EU should be a super state and Ireland should be just a peripheral province. Kind of like how we'd see Maine in the United States.

I find that understanding rather disturbing. But then again, I'm a pretty ardent supporter of the UK leaving the EU so that probably should serve as a hint to where I fall in respect to national sovereignty.

Edit: I tried the whole I support the EU but think it should be reformed tack until 2016. After the Brexit referendum (when I voted remain) and in the subsequent negotiations, I concluded that the belief that the EU would reform to give more sovereignty to member states was a fool's errand. The only way the EU will reform is to take more sovereignty away.