Ireland to contribute €16 billion more than it receives to EU in next 7 years

Graham

10000maniacs wrote: »

Then Haughey brought in new labour laws and reduced income tax. The big multinational companies took notice and started opening up here enticed by a 12.5 percent corporate tax rate, and tax loopholes. Very little to be thankful for to the EU so far.

I wouldn't have thought it necessary to point out membership of the EU had a major part in attracting the multinationals.

10000maniacs

Graham wrote: »

I wouldn't have thought it necessary to point out membership of the EU had a major part in attracting the multinationals.

I did kind of mention it in the sentence you didn't quote.
"Ok some of the multinational corporations saw this as a stepping stone into the EU. But without that 12.5% corporate tax rate, they wouldn't have bothered in the first place."
But in the early days, most of the product was getting shipped back to the USA anyway. So the EU was a factor but not a huge factor.

Graham

10000maniacs wrote: »

some of the multinational corporations saw this as a stepping stone into the EU

The rest came here for the love of green fields and dairygold?

ExMachina1000

There is a hierarchy in every other human group.

The EU is no different. Germany and France dominate. They are the strongest. Ireland is a wealthy outlier who is also connected to the Us and will protect its tax status. Germany and France want this to change.

We are being sanctioned through the back door.

Clarence Boddiker

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I doubt the EU upper powers particularly like Ireland because the multi nationals are based here. They might feel the bloc is losing out. Ireland isn't sharing they might think

I have a feeling that the only reason Ireland is still getting away with that is because of the enormous power of the Multinationals. If it was up to the EU our advantage would be gone tomorrow.

10000maniacs

Graham wrote: »

The rest came here for the love of green fields and dairygold?

They wouldn't have come here without the 12.5% corporate tax rate which was despised by the EU.

Graham

10000maniacs wrote: »

They wouldn't have come here without the 12.5% corporate tax rate which was despised by the EU.

It's almost as if low tax rates and EU membership were a good combination.

ExMachina1000

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

I have a feeling that the only reason Ireland is still getting away with that is because of the enormous power of the Multinationals. If it was up to the EU our advantage would be gone tomorrow.

Steps would definitely be taken to harmonize tax. They make no secret about wanting to do it either

10000maniacs

Graham wrote: »

It's almost as if low tax rates and EU membership were a good combination.

Almost. I would say OK. We would have been fine without the EU. Especially in the first 20 years where we couldn't have been much worse off to be fair.

Graham

10000maniacs wrote: »

Almost. I would say OK. We would have been fine without the EU. Especially in the first 20 years where we couldn't have been much worse off to be fair.

I guess we're just lucky there aren't many this side of the water drunk on the Farage cool aid.

Clarence Boddiker

Graham wrote: »

I guess we're just lucky there aren't many this side of the water drunk on the Farage cool aid.

This is the Stockholm Syndrome is was talking about..

KyussB

I suppose it's time for Dublin to demand that the rest of Ireland balances its budget, and stop depending on subsidies from Dublin, right?

Sharing a currency without the higher-growth regions(*) subsidizing regions which do not grow as fast, means that lower-growth regions decline permanently. Much like would happen if Dublin did not subsidize the rest of Ireland.

That's why the Euro is broken, without fiscal transfers.

(*) Not the same as tax-haven inflated growth figures.

10000maniacs

Graham wrote: »

I guess we're just lucky there aren't many this side of the water drunk on the Farage cool aid.

This thread is very close to becoming a GoFundMe for the EU.

Millionaire only not

10000maniacs wrote: »

This thread is very close to becoming a GoFundMe for the EU.

That’s good - lol

Podge_irl

10000maniacs wrote: »

They wouldn't have come here without the 12.5% corporate tax rate which was despised by the EU.

It is still despised by "the EU" - which, again, continues to be a misnomer in these discussions as if it is some ethereal body as opposed to a group of which we are a constituent part.

However, they can't do anything about it without our say so. So we retain power over it, retain the benefits of it and in return we have to pay our fair share into the EU bucket. Seems perfectly fair to me.

Podge_irl

Mallory Mysterious Fudge wrote: »

They've (France) have actually overtaken Greece (which is saying something), as the next favourite to leave (after Italy of course).
Macron is quickly loosing popularity.

:rolleyes:

None of them are remotely close to even holding any kind of initial steps towards leaving.

Graham

KyussB wrote: »

Sharing a currency without the higher-growth regions(*) subsidizing regions which do not grow as fast, means that lower-growth regions decline permanently. Much like would happen if Dublin did not subsidize the rest of Ireland.

Stop with the logic, you'll disturb the Irexiters.

10000maniacs

10000maniacs wrote: »

I think we paid most of the balance of that equation when the EU precluded the Irish from imposing haircuts on unguaranteed bondholders of insolvent banks.
The cost in hardship to this nation is still being felt today.

Do you realise who the main bondholders were?

10000maniacs

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Do you realise who the main bondholders were?

Mostly French, German, Swiss and UK Asset Management and investment fund portfolios.
The full list is online somewhere.
We would have saved €10 Billion+ by burning them. And we should have.




.

JohnnyFlash

There's very little room for context in the outrage engine rooms of social media. Ireland is a corrupt shíthole; our health care and housing issues are exclusive to us; the politicians are only getting elected so they can make money, and everything is terrible.

The reality is we went from being the poorest country in Western Europe when we got our independence, to now being a country ranked 3rd in the Human Development Index. An extraordinary success.

Much of that is down to our membership of the European Union. We now have to contribute back to it. We can never really repay what it did for Ireland.

4068ac1elhodqr

Podge_irl wrote: »

None of them are remotely close to even holding any kind of initial steps towards leaving.

The French elections of 2022 have not yet happened, maybe avoid looking at any poll data between now and then. Even 3rd place candidate (Eurosceptic) Melenchon is very critical of many EU policies.

Italy is a wildcard, likely not best pleased with the EU response to COVID, among other matters that are all spanners in the works.

10000maniacs

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

There's very little room for context in the outrage engine rooms of social media. Ireland is a corrupt shíthole; our health care and housing issues are exclusive to us; the politicians are only getting elected so they can make money, and everything is terrible.

The reality is we went from being the poorest country in Western Europe when we got our independence, to now being a country ranked 3rd in the Human Development Index. An extraordinary success.

Much of that is down to our membership of the European Union. We now have to contribute back to it. We can never really repay what it did for Ireland.

If much of our current success is down to the EEC/EU which we joined in 1973, how come Ireland was an under-developed backwater for most of the 70's and 80's with one in five unemployed and people flying out as soon as they got their degrees?
What did the EU do in the early 90's to turn that around?
Or a better question is what did we do ourselves?

lawred2

10000maniacs wrote: »

Ireland will contribute vastly more to the seven-year EU budget (which is separate to the recovery fund) than we get back. In fact, according to a German MEP who has the official figures, Ireland will contribute almost €16billion more than it receives, while Italy and Spain will be net beneficiaries.
Hmmm. Are we being taken for mugs?

Taken for mugs?

What?

You were expecting to be a net recipient forever?

10000maniacs

lawred2 wrote: »

Taken for mugs?

What?

You were expecting to be a net recipient forever?

Of course not. But we represent about 1% of the population of the EU, and yet we are going to be paying in nearly 6% of it's capital for the next 7 years.
I think we should have fought for a fairer deal.
Ireland is not six times richer than your average country in the EU.
So why should we pay as if we were?



.

JohnnyFlash

Finland, Denmark, Belgium, Austria, Sweden, The Netherlands, France, and Germany. The last great postwar social democracies (Iceland, Norway, Canada, New Zealand, Australia as well). To have Ireland in that company is a testament to what we've achieved since independence.

These are the best countries in the world in which to live. We are very lucky people.

Das Reich

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Seriously what are Spain & Italy at...

They have both being on the brink of collapse for years, their getting lots of EU money, what is it being spent on...Genuine question?

Lots of orders and impositions from the EU against Spain and specially Italy that was the second economy in Europe in early 90's. French products couldn't compete with price so EU had to order Italy to produce less. Then you have the fines specially against Spain. And the sanctions against Russia during Crimean crisis that affect a lot Italy and its strong relations to Russia (that EU didn't give a ****). The thing is that both countries had a very submissive governments and were doing everything France and EU told to do. France instead have a very protectionist government that still make a lot of money on their "ex" colonies. Look at this list of most sold cars in France in 2019, the first non French car is at position 14 (excluding Dacia that is owned by Renault).

https://www.best-selling-cars.com/france/2019-full-year-france-top-30-best-selling-car-models/

10000maniacs

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Finland, Denmark, Belgium, Austria, Sweden, The Netherlands, France, and Germany. The last great postwar social democracies (Iceland, Norway, Canada, New Zealand, Australia as well). To have Ireland in that company is a testament to what we've achieved since independence.

These are the best countries in the world in which to live. We are very lucky people.

So drinks all around on us. Cool. :pac:

tayto lover

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Finland, Denmark, Belgium, Austria, Sweden, The Netherlands, France, and Germany. The last great postwar social democracies (Iceland, Norway, Canada, New Zealand, Australia as well). To have Ireland in that company is a testament to what we've achieved since independence.

These are the best countries in the world in which to live. We are very lucky people.

Ah Jaysus that’s great. Add a few percent to the income tax so ffs.

Graham

10000maniacs wrote: »

Of course not. But we represent about 1% of the population of the EU, and yet we are going to be paying in nearly 6% of it's capital for the next 7 years.

What percentage have we been taking in the years leading up to now?

10000maniacs

Graham wrote: »

What percentage have we been taking in the years leading up to now?

I would guess not 6% of the EU's budget for sure. Far below 1%

Das Reich

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Finland, Denmark, Belgium, Austria, Sweden, The Netherlands, France, and Germany. The last great postwar social democracies (Iceland, Norway, Canada, New Zealand, Australia as well). To have Ireland in that company is a testament to what we've achieved since independence.

These are the best countries in the world in which to live. We are very lucky people.

The best example of a social democracy is Portugal. Ireland is actually a liberal democracy as many on that list.

From wikipedia:

"A liberal democracy may take various constitutional forms as it may be a constitutional monarchy (such as Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Japan, Netherlands, Norway, Spain and the United Kingdom) or a republic (such as France, Germany, Poland, India, Italy, Ireland, Mexico, and the United States). It may have a parliamentary system (such as Australia, Canada, Germany, India, Israel, Ireland, Italy and the United Kingdom), a presidential system (such as Indonesia and the United States) or a semi-presidential system (such as France, Poland and Romania)."

10000maniacs

I give up lads.
Start a Go Fund Me page for the poor EU.

https://www.gofundme.com

MidlanderMan

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

If I was German, looking at that, I wouldn't be too happy

Then you'd be showing your lack of understanding of how their EU status benefits their manufacturing exports.

JohnnyFlash

http://hdr.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/IRL

Ireland is a brilliant country in which to have been born, lived in, worked, raised kids in, and to hope to retire in.

You are the 1%. We are up there with Norway, New Zealand, and Switzerland.

Graham

10000maniacs wrote: »

I would guess not 6% of the EU's budget for sure. Far below 1%

Oddly enough 6% matches the net receipts we received from the EU as a percentage of GDP in the early 90s

Interesting article:

Despite being one of the richest countries of the European Union, Ireland will continue to receive significant amounts of what can be termed 'Foreign Aid,' until 2007.

-//-

It may surprise some of those voters who believe that immigrants (the bulk of whom are here on approved work permits) are costing us lots of money, that we are still receiving large transfers from the European Union. Other European taxpayers are still funding us, with the largest shares paid by the Netherlands, Germany and Sweden. Germany has been the leading contributor to Ireland's net receipts of €34 billion since joining the then European Community in 1973-the amount would be considerably higher if stated in current money values. Today, Germany has many economic problems in particular in the former East Germany where unemployment is 20%.

Ireland Tops Cash per Head Income Aid from European Union

endacl

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Time for us to walk away?

No. Because that would be stupid. Might, in fact, entirely redefine stupid.

10000maniacs

Graham wrote: »

Oddly enough 6% matches the net receipts we received from the EU as a percentage of GDP in the early 90s

Interesting article:



Ireland Tops Cash per Head Income Aid from European Union

How are you on the old sums?
6% as a percentage of GDP not quite the same as 6% of the EU's entire income.

hmmm

Our contribution to the EU budget is tiny in comparison to the value of access to the enormous EU market, which has allowed us move from the poorest country in the EU to one of the richest over a few decades. We should be really proud we have reached this point.

Graham

10000maniacs wrote: »

How are you on the old sums?
6% as a percentage of GDP not quite the same as 6% of the EU's entire income.

Here's a sum for you

€40 billion received - €16 billion to pay over the next 7 years.

10000maniacs

Graham wrote: »

Here's a sum for you

€40 billion received - €16 billion to pay over the next 7 years.

-Minus the fact that the vast majority of it was spent 30-40 years ago.
-Minus the fact that we could have reclaimed €10 billion+ after the crash from bondholders but the EU wouldn't let us.
-Minus the fact that we bought a lot of EU merchandise over that 50 years ourselves.
etc... etc....

Graham

So you've been free to enjoy the benefits of what was spent over the last 30-40 years
You've been free to benefit from access to an enormous market for 40 years

But you're upset because now it's our turn to contribute?

Got it.

JohnnyFlash

10000maniacs

Graham wrote: »

So you've been free to enjoy the benefits of what was spent over the last 30-40 years
You've been free to benefit from access to an enormous market for 40 years

But you're upset because now it's our turn to contribute?

Got it.

Are we 6 times richer than the average EU country? Obviously the answer is no.
So then why are we paying 6% of the EU's entire income?

Graham

10000maniacs wrote: »

-Minus the fact that the vast majority of it was spent 30-40 years ago.
-Minus the fact that we could have reclaimed €10 billion+ after the crash from bondholders but the EU wouldn't let us.
-Minus the fact that we bought a lot of EU merchandise over that 50 years ourselves.
etc... etc....

I knew this spiel sounded familiar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tvauOJMHo

The UK was also a net contributor and left partly based on this argument. Do we really need to entertain the idea that we'd be better off without the EU?

Graham

Kalico92 wrote: »

Do we really need to entertain the idea that we'd be better off without the EU?

Fortunately we don't.

10000maniacs

Graham wrote: »

I knew this spiel sounded familiar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tvauOJMHo

Oh yeah, I forgot about the wine.

StupidLikeAFox

So the figure is 16bn over 7 years, which is around 2.2bn per year on an overall GDP of ~360bn. Have I got that right? Or assuming the GDP is more or less static then we are paying 16bn out of our 2.5tn GDP. I appreciate its back of the envelope stuff but in the grand scheme of things it's small money compared to what we get out of the EU

10000maniacs

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

So the figure is 16bn over 7 years, which is around 2.2bn per year on an overall GDP of ~360bn. Have I got that right? Or assuming the GDP is more or less static then we are paying 16bn out of our 2.5tn GDP. I appreciate its back of the envelope stuff but in the grand scheme of things it's small money compared to what we get out of the EU

10 years ago, the Troika were forcing us to cut €2 billion in spending per year.
Now we all see what they were up to. The property charges, water charges and universal social charge, wage cuts. It was all to pay the EU.

Wanderer78

10000maniacs wrote: »

10 years ago, the Troika were forcing us to cut €2 billion in spending per year.
Now we all see what they were up to. The property charges, water charges and universal social charge, wage cuts. It was all to pay the EU.

ah its more to do with the failure of collective thinking, we are our own villain, which includes thinking within critical eu institutions