How is government regulated?

fret_wimp2

ronivek wrote: »

Technically I believe the President could refer a Bill to the Supreme Court even without believing it to be unconstitutional; should he wish to draw attention to a particular bill and delay its passing in the hopes that it may be withdrawn. If the Supreme Court ruled it constitutional he would be forced to sign it however.

There is another option (although it has never been exercised in the history of the state):
A Seanad majority coupled with 1/3rd of the Dail can petition the President under Article 27 of the Constitution to hold a referendum on the enacting of a Bill which may be of 'National Importance'.

This is helpful, thank you.


All the Arguing about sf, racism etc is not, happy for this to be Locked now before it goes too far downhill

James Brown

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Probably voted for SF. A wasted vote again.

It's like paddy powers vote based on who might win not policy. Makes sense :rolleyes:

Best not to get too bitter if people vote differently.
We have the government we have. It's a hell of a toboggan ride.

Rodney Bathgate

Speak of the devil.

James Brown

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Speak of the devil.

The OP asked a fair civics type question. Cool your pipe bombs

Rodney Bathgate

Bowie wrote: »

The OP asked a fair civics type question. Cool your pipe bombs

And he appears.

SC024

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Tds and Minsters salaries are pegged to grades in the civil service afaik,

Do the politicians not have final sign off on those same pay agreements?

Does the Teaoiseach of the day not appoint a number of senators ? wasn't that the main reason for the urgency of getting a government agreed re: the special criminal courts legislation to be renewed?

Former Former

The government is held accountable by the people.

The judiciary is there to ensure that politicians do not exceed their powers, and they frequently exercise that power.

We have a plethora of bodies monitoring state activities (Ombudsman, GSOC, Sipo, CAG, etc).

Our electoral system essentially guarantees a (numerically) strong opposition, unlike the UK.

And of course everything has to be done in compliance with EU law with the Commission, ECJ and ECHR wielding a very big stick.

I think oversight of our government is incredibly high.

Heart Break Kid

You vote for someone else. If people continue to vote for the same people, it’s obviously due to the people not caring as much as you .

Irishman80

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

How is government regulated and kept in line in Ireland?

e.g. the 16k topup for super junior ministers. whats to stop that being 26k, or 106k?

Who/what decides whats right and fair or whats a bit too much?
If a government did go nuts, what process stops them?

From news articles it seems like they decide among themselves what they can get away with without causing too much grumbling from the general population, and the worst that will happen is a tribunal years after the fact, but I find it difficult to believe there are not more controls.

To take it to extreme, if ministers decided to award everyone in the cabinet a million euro salary, what stops this?

Im not asking for rants or government bashing, im genuinely curious what controls are in place and how they work, so please no "gravy train comments.

First stop is a proper constitution which delegates separation of powers and provides for checks and balances. Ireland ranks poorly in this regard. The US is the model to follow.

For example, powers must be separated into Executive, Legislature, Judiciary each with their own independence. Legislatures can also be separated into upper and lower chambers, again each with specific powers.

In Ireland, the Executive controls the Legislature and has huge power in appointing judges. Our President is not the leader of the Executive branch and does not have real veto power.

Another check is the ability of the electorate to vote clowns out of office. Unfortunately, we might have to wait 7 years for that opportunity.

Then we have the media. A free, fair, objective, and antagonistic media is an important bulwark against powerful groups. It’s another argument whether we have this though.

In today’s capitalist system, there is also a diffusion of power to other groups making them important bulwarks against other powers i.e lobby groups, NGOs, Unions, Consumer groups, etc.

So that’s just a few examples.

Geuze

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

How is government regulated and kept in line in Ireland?

e.g. the 16k topup for super junior ministers. whats to stop that being 26k, or 106k?

The answer is: there isn't a top-up.

From what I read, there wasn't any pay rise. The allowance is currently paid to two Ministers of State at Cabinet, but we now have three. The vote is to extend the allowance to the third Minister of State.

So - no payrise.

James Brown

Geuze wrote: »

The answer is: there isn't a top-up.

From what I read, there wasn't any pay rise. The allowance is currently paid to two Ministers of State at Cabinet, but we now have three. The vote is to extend the allowance to the third Minister of State.

So - no payrise.

Its extra money they get paid though right?
A raise in the money the now three get to take home but not a pay raise. A supplement.

Part of the gravy they negotiated. Pippa got less but still, nice.

Geuze

Bowie wrote: »

Its extra money they get paid though right?
A raise in the money the now three get to take home but not a pay raise. A supplement.

Part of the gravy they negotiated. Pippa got less but still, nice.

Is it not the same, current allowance extended to the new, third MofS?

€38,787*


https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/members/salaries-and-allowances/

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/members/salaries-and-allowances/salaries/

James Brown

Geuze wrote: »

Is it not the same, current allowance extended to the new, third MofS?

€38,787*


https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/members/salaries-and-allowances/

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/members/salaries-and-allowances/salaries/

Reads as a top up

A Government decision to change laws to allow pay hikes for ministers of State days before they go on their summer holidays has been branded "disgusting" and "greedy".
The Coalition pushed through the legislative change to allow three ministers of State to get a €16,229 allowance for attending Cabinet meetings.
Pay hikes for super juniors are branded as 'disgusting'
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/pay-hikes-for-super-juniors-are-branded-as-disgusting-39396118.html

ronivek

First the actual facts:

1. There are currently three Ministers of State who attend cabinet and take part in cabinet business but do not get a vote in cabinet: Jack Chambers - FF, Hildegarde Naughton - FG, and Pippa Hackett - Greens.
2. The bill in question currently states: "provide for the payment of an annual allowance to not more than 2 specified holders of the office of Minister of State who regularly attend meetings of the Government"
3. The change passed by the Government in the Dail simply replaces the 'not more than 2 specified holders' above with 'not more than 3 specified holders'.

So the result of the change was to make sure all 3 super junior Ministers can claim the allowance going forward; as opposed to only 2 of the 3 if the change wasn't made.

Out of interest I decided to compare the first page of google hits and their reporting on the issue.

RTE: First paragraph is factually incorrect; claiming that 'The Dáil has passed laws to increase the remuneration of three 'super junior' ministers'.
Irish Times Article #1: Seems factual.
Irish Times #2: Again factually incorrect headline and by-line: 'TDs vote to approve by 72 to 46 an allowance that adds €16,288 to these salaries'. Strange that even the same paper seem to disagree with themselves; surely that's what editors are for?
Irish Examiner: Seems factual.
extra.ie: Half factual but still manages to get the following error in there: 'If passed, Mr McGrath’s legislation would see Fianna Fail chief whip Jack Chambers, Minister of State for Road Hildegarde Naughten and Green Party senator and junior agriculture minister Pippa Hackett benefiting from the pay increase.'
Irish Independent: Again first line not factual: 'A Government decision to change laws to allow pay hikes for ministers of State...'.
Irish Sun: Technically true but phrased clearly to imply all are getting increases; sneaky: 'Public Expenditure and Reform Minister Michael McGrath has moved to ensure that three "super junior ministers" who sit at the Cabinet table get an additional allowance worth more than €16,000.'.

I can't say I pay too much attention to Irish media in general but I am quite surprised so many seem to have the fundamental facts of the change wrong. Am I missing something here?

EDIT: Actually now that I posted and read through the quotes I think I've figured out what some of them are doing. It looks like some of what I've considered to be 'factually incorrect' is technically factual; but at best has been very poorly worded and does not represent the effective change that was made. At worst it's a deliberate effort to misrepresent the changes and presumably generate more ire.

blanch152

Deleted User wrote: »

Just aswell noone said that so then



Nonetheless.....it is a conflict of interest,which noone is allowed to qs or point out anymore

You are pointing out the conflict of interest, but I haven't seen a single serious lawyer disagree with the AG. In fact, we have had two different AGs issue the same advice, which suggests it is more likely correct than wrong.

blanch152

Geuze wrote: »

Is it not the same, current allowance extended to the new, third MofS?

€38,787*


https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/members/salaries-and-allowances/

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/members/salaries-and-allowances/salaries/

Yes, you are 100% correct.

But something, something, payrise, #notmytaoiseach, Leo is gay, etc. etc.

blanch152

Irishman80 wrote: »

First stop is a proper constitution which delegates separation of powers and provides for checks and balances. Ireland ranks poorly in this regard. The US is the model to follow.

For example, powers must be separated into Executive, Legislature, Judiciary each with their own independence. Legislatures can also be separated into upper and lower chambers, again each with specific powers.

In Ireland, the Executive controls the Legislature and has huge power in appointing judges. Our President is not the leader of the Executive branch and does not have real veto power.

Another check is the ability of the electorate to vote clowns out of office. Unfortunately, we might have to wait 7 years for that opportunity.

Then we have the media. A free, fair, objective, and antagonistic media is an important bulwark against powerful groups. It’s another argument whether we have this though.

In today’s capitalist system, there is also a diffusion of power to other groups making them important bulwarks against other powers i.e lobby groups, NGOs, Unions, Consumer groups, etc.

So that’s just a few examples.

You lost me at "the US is the model to follow".

Trump, bills blocked at Congress, pork barrel politics, inability to control guns, filibusters, inequality, racism, it absolutely isn't the model to follow.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, you are 100% correct.

But something, something, payrise, #notmytaoiseach, Leo is gay, etc. etc.

A Government decision to change laws to allow pay hikes for ministers of State days before they go on their summer holidays has been branded "disgusting" and "greedy".
The Coalition pushed through the legislative change to allow three ministers of State to get a €16,229 allowance for attending Cabinet meetings.
Pay hikes for super juniors are branded as 'disgusting'
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/pay-hikes-for-super-juniors-are-branded-as-disgusting-39396118.html

So they changed laws this says.
You are trying to bury this.

Podge_irl

Bowie wrote: »

So they changed laws this says.
You are trying to bury this.

Yes they changed the law.

No they did not change the law "to allow pay hikes for ministers of state". They changed the number of such positions from 2 to 3.

I do not know why the Independent is reporting it incorrectly, but take it up with them.

And yes, it was at the very least, pretty stupid optics and they should have known better.

ronivek

Another interesting point is that Pearse Doherty asked Brendan Howlin in September 2019 how much the Government would save if they abolished the 'super junior allowance'; and his answer would appear to confirm that the last known value of this allowance is actually €17,205 (€34,410 saving for two super junior Ministers; so half of that per Minister).

I know people would likely feel the same irrespective of whether it was €10,000 or €30,000 but I still find it all a bit baffling. Surely we should expect our media and TDs to report things accurately and factually?

Mr. Karate

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

How is government regulated and kept in line in Ireland?

e.g. the 16k topup for super junior ministers. whats to stop that being 26k, or 106k?

Who/what decides whats right and fair or whats a bit too much?
If a government did go nuts, what process stops them?

From news articles it seems like they decide among themselves what they can get away with without causing too much grumbling from the general population, and the worst that will happen is a tribunal years after the fact, but I find it difficult to believe there are not more controls.

To take it to extreme, if ministers decided to award everyone in the cabinet a million euro salary, what stops this?

Im not asking for rants or government bashing, im genuinely curious what controls are in place and how they work, so please no "gravy train comments.

Now you why America has the 2nd Amendment and why its so important. Tyrannical Governments fear an armed populace.

"When the Govt fear the People there is Liberty. When the People fear the Govt there is Tyranny."

mikeym

More money for the politicians.

And clap for the Doctors and Nurses.

The Green Party have turned their backs on the environment and have embraced the thousands of Euros with open arms.

a very cool kid

Podge_irl wrote: »

The AG does not make binding judgements on anything.

The AG is only the government's lawyer, he can give his opinion whether something is legal. Sinn Féin are perfectly free to test his opinion in the courts.

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

Reads as a top up

Yes, if you just blindly follow the click bait media headlines and log on to the Shinnerbots on Twitter, you would believe that this is a pay rise out of nowhere.

However, if you go beyond that and back to the original source, as Gueze has done, you see that it is just paying three instead of two the normal rate for the job.

In the same way, Brian Stanley (SF nonentity TD) is getting a 9.5k payrise just because Mary-Lou picked him out ahead of the likes of Violet-Anne.

Irishman80

blanch152 wrote: »

You lost me at "the US is the model to follow".

Trump, bills blocked at Congress, pork barrel politics, inability to control guns, filibusters, inequality, racism, it absolutely isn't the model to follow.

No, the separation of powers in the US Constitution is exactly the model to follow. Can you imagine someone like Trump in power in the Irish system?

I'm not sure why you started waffling about all the other stuff to be honest.

ronivek

Irishman80 wrote: »

No, the separation of powers in the US Constitution is exactly the model to follow. Can you imagine someone like Trump in power in the Irish system?

I'm not sure why you started waffling about all the other stuff to be honest.

So the US is the model to follow; yet you’re using the example of the current head of the US Executive Branch to highlight why the Irish system is inferior? Care to give any actual reasons why this is your position?

Irishman80

ronivek wrote: »

So the US is the model to follow; yet you’re using the example of the current head of the US Executive Branch to highlight why the Irish system is inferior? Care to give any actual reasons why this is your position?

I've explained it in my previous post. There is no real separation of powers in the Irish system.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, if you just blindly follow the click bait media headlines and log on to the Shinnerbots on Twitter, you would believe that this is a pay rise out of nowhere.

However, if you go beyond that and back to the original source, as Gueze has done, you see that it is just paying three instead of two the normal rate for the job.

In the same way, Brian Stanley (SF nonentity TD) is getting a 9.5k payrise just because Mary-Lou picked him out ahead of the likes of Violet-Anne.

Yes I read it in a few news papers as such. Now I asked you what laws were changed the other day. No reply.
This is boards not twitter also nothing wrong with social media but it stands that like the public, it would receive your ire because they don't all have the right opinion.

So no €16000 top up/suppliment and no laws changed? Contrary to the press reports?
And anyone who believes reports in the media is a twitter shinnerbot? Okey doke.

Shinners again, (don't even know who Stanley is ffs)? 3 times in a post about FF/FG/Green giving raises. Seems logical

James Brown

Irishman80 wrote: »

I've explained it in my previous post. There is no real separation of powers in the Irish system.

The trick is to wilfully misrepresent your point and then hammer you repeatedly on the point you never made.

Trump would make Haughey look like a Monk if he had our system.

Podge_irl

Irishman80 wrote: »

I've explained it in my previous post. There is no real separation of powers in the Irish system.

We don't have a separately elected legislative and executive branch. The judiciary has separation of powers.