Work Problem

OMM 0000

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Seems quite likely we are getting the full story. The OP has been more than willing to answer anything you’ve grilled them about.

Stop pretending I'm grilling the OP.

It's very likely we haven't got the full story. When you become a manager you'll understand. Most people are in denial about who they really are.

I'm not continuing this conversation with you.

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Stop pretending I'm grilling the OP.

It's very likely we haven't got the full story. When you become a manager you'll understand. Most people are in denial about who they really are.

I'm not continuing this conversation with you.

Last word. You’re a manager alright.

You’ve done nothing except try to paint the OP s being at fault. Won’t even entertain what they’re saying is true because you clearly see managers as better people who can’t possibly be wrong. You’re obviously very special, being a manager and all.

antillia2020

OMM 0000 wrote: »

.

So in this situation we have a person saying their performance is basically perfect yet HR and their manager have a problem with them... such a problem in fact that they are at risk of being fired.

Isn't it quite likely we're not getting the full story?

Stop assuming. The HR does not have any problems with me. The manager did not either up until recently when I raised a health concern. As I mentioned before they are not trained to manage people so instead of finding a resolution he decided to make up false stuff about me to cover himself up.

As I mentioned above, I do not have any issues, 5 years working with company and never had a single late or sick day. I took two weeks off this month as it was strongly suggested by doctor.

As for performance again as I mentioned I was awarded for my performance just last month from out of 200+ employees. I am hitting my targets/exceeding them every month.

So kindly stop assuming there is an issue with me when this is definitely not the case.

antillia2020

hello2020 wrote: »

may be your good work is overshadowing your manager and he is not able to handle your success !! r u about to get promoted or something ??

I am good at work and he has acknowledged this as well. No promotions etc.

antillia2020

krissovo wrote: »

If you get your meeting with Senior Management can you bring a possible solution to the table rather than just a problem statement?

I find if you have a reasonable solution in situations like this senior management are more than likely to run with it rather than let it become their problem. Also are there reasons why this task particularly stressful? What would it make it not stressful for you to do that task? Is it training or just a crap task that drives you crazy.

That is what I am looking for a solution. I dont want to create an issue, it was never my intention.

The role that I am struggling with is different part of the department. The workload is insane and not easy to handle. The turnover in staff is very high with someone leaving almost every week.

beauf

Gemancy wrote: »

Sorry to read about your work and personal issues OP.

Do you have an occupational health service? Most multinationals will have access to one if not an on-site service.

Stress in itself is a symptom of an issue/illness as opposed to an illness in itself. Combined with your recent bereavement etc. and increased workload your ability to deal with stress has obviously been diminished, which is completely understandable and normal. It’s important to identify all the stress triggers in your life, both personal and work related so you can try to control and manage those within your ability to do so.

Unexpected and/or traumatic events can cause even minor issues in our lives to become overwhelming. Equally, poor management at work, not recognising when a colleague is overloaded despite you taking the brave step to acknowledge same is very detrimental and frustrating. From what you have posted you sound like you are being reasonable. Your manager seems oblivious. Even putting your personal issues aside, the fact that an employee has flagged that they are struggling warrants at least some (non-punitive) intervention.

See if you can get a referral to the occ health physician and perhaps they might make some recommendations to your HR department. Occ health is independent to your employer even if they are employed/retained by them.

If you have been there 5 years and have liked it up until recently, I wouldn’t rush out the door until you have tried to change it. If you have a decent Hr department they are not going to jump to the decision to fire you! Remember though, life is short and your health is the most important thing so put that first and foremost.

Good luck

Good advice here. Even if it makes you stop and take action for the stress. Not a simple or easy situation though.

MrMusician18

OMM 0000 wrote: »

No I'm trying to ensure we are getting the full picture.

I know almost everyone on boards think managers are stupid and evil, but they're not. In almost every case, especially at multinationals, when HR and management are disciplining a staff member, there is some basis to it.

I've been a manager a long time, and in my experience almost no employees are able to be honest with themselves about their bad attitude or poor performance. I've worked with many managers and it's the same problem over and over - (for example) the person who comes in late, surfs the web all day, smells of booze every Thursday, does crappy work... eventually they get disciplined and they act the victim and pretend it's all totally undeserved.

So in this situation we have a person saying their performance is basically perfect yet HR and their manager have a problem with them... such a problem in fact that they are at risk of being fired.

Isn't it quite likely we're not getting the full story?

Aside from substance abuse issues, the issues you highlight there are more often due to a lack of motivation. This is usually down to a lack of manager support, a lack of training or sometimes down to a lack of a real role for the employee. Having suffered the latter myself, that can be a real demoraliser.

Just a word of warning to the OP. Some managers really resent personal issues being brought into the workplace. I know of one person where they were suffering a breakdown in their marriage and was highly stressed at work and asked to be cut some slack. Sympathy and understanding were forthcoming from management but that individual ended up being managed out of a job within the year.

kaymin

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Stop pretending I'm grilling the OP.

It's very likely we haven't got the full story. When you become a manager you'll understand. Most people are in denial about who they really are.

I'm not continuing this conversation with you.

I've been a manager for 20 years and I can't say I understand. Some / many managers are morons. Many are on a power trip and don't like to hear anything that contradicts their self-belief.

hello2020

antillia2020 wrote: »

I am good at work and he has acknowledged this as well. No promotions etc.

may be you being too good at work is making him insecure and he is trying to put u in hard position to show u in poor light ....

jimmycrackcorm

antillia2020 wrote: »

That is what I am looking for a solution. I dont want to create an issue, it was never my intention.

The role that I am struggling with is different part of the department. The workload is insane and not easy to handle. The turnover in staff is very high with someone leaving almost every week.

From your managers perspective, is this just not something you should be able to deal with, especially if it is only 2-3 times a month? His reaction seems to be that you're unwilling to pitch in and are trying to fob it off.

I can understand the stress angle if that was every day of the week. From another point of view, perhaps your normal role is vastly easier than this other task; so it might be a lot easier to perform well in, as you are doing.

the-island-man

I've been in a similar position for the last while in my workplace which is also a multinational.

I don't know if I'm an expert as it's still playing out and who knows it could be the case that I'm being managed out of the job over time like another poster mentioned.

My advice would be to take some time before going to HR. You said that your manager told you they are preparing a statement but it sounds like there's no documented proof of this? It's just over a phone conversation with no witnesses? Also I think I've seen before that to prove that you're being bullied\intimidated you have to show a sustained period of I'll treatment or harassment over time rather than a one off occasion.

Try to get away from private conversations as much as possible with them. Preferably try get as much communication through Email so there's a record. Even going as far as sending an Email to get confirmation of a conversation had.

Another thing I would do is to contact HR to seek out any Employee handbook or HR policies in existence. Usually Multi-nationals always have these supplementary documents that go along with your employment contract which cover acceptable conduct and employee welfare. You need to swat up on these documents to know what is expected of every employee (your manager is an Employee too). The companies corporate values should also be important in this regard. This is knowledge you need to know so you can reference it if this does go to a formal complaint by either yourself or the manager.

Finally in my case I went to OCC Health about the stress. My manager tried to initially fob me off but I persisted. In my view this created a record at the company level and could potentially work in your favour as it would make the company wary of a lawsuit. There might be differing opinions on this. Some would think it could end any chance of promotion in the future but I think stress is to serious an issue to ignore.

the-island-man

OMM 0000 wrote: »

It's very likely we haven't got the full story. When you become a manager you'll understand. Most people are in denial about who they really are.

Isn't the well trotted out bs line in Multi-nationals nowadays to "assume positive intent". I'm reassured that you are a great manager if your default thought is that most people are in denial about who they really are.

We can't know everything about the Employee or the Manager in this scenario. All we are doing is assuming the positive intent of the OP and believe what they are saying.

You may find a better place to help in a thread created by a beleaguered manager?

qwerty13

I’m sorry to be posting as cynically as I am - but your time in this particular workplace is over.

HR exist to protect the company from legal stuff, be that ‘required (ie tick box) training’, or alleged arbitrators re employer/employee disputes. They are going to protect your manager, not you.

I know you’ve said that you have back-up stuff, but make sure it’s in writing. And print it off to bring with you to any meetings. You need to follow the grievance process to the absolute letter. If they don’t (and I suspect they won’t), then that plays into your hand.

If they’re a US company, I’ve seen time and again how higher-ups don’t appear to feel the need to adhere to European employment laws. Again, this potentially plays into your hand.

If you happen to work in a fund administration role for a US company, I’d not worry about leaving or references - because they often employ people on low salaries with inadequate training, and that is well known.

rock22

antillia2020 wrote: »

.....

I did refuse saying that I can get a doctors letter to say that I am suffering from stress due to that particular work role so that could be my last option if the company cant accommodate my request.

...

If you have refused your managers request to do the work, and you have provided a doctor's letter essentially saying you cannot now do that work, the employer can justifiably let you go.

OMM 0000

antillia2020 wrote: »

Stop assuming. The HR does not have any problems with me.

HR does, you just don't know it yet. There is a process to things like this, unless your manager is a complete clown, which he may be.

Stepping Stone

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I've been a manager a long time, and in my experience almost no employees are able to be honest with themselves about their bad attitude or poor performance. I've worked with many managers and it's the same problem over and over - (for example) the person who comes in late, surfs the web all day, smells of booze every Thursday, does crappy work... eventually they get disciplined and they act the victim and pretend it's all totally undeserved.

Where do you work? In my almost 20 years of work I haven’t seen behaviour like that since I was a teenager working with other teenagers. It’s really, really not normal in a professional place of work.

In my current place, it’s really chilled out and as long as the work gets done to a high standard, on time everyone is happy. Managers are completely normal and I can’t think of a single incidence of anything like this happening. We’re grown adults and I assume that HR and hiring managers weed out the issues at recruitment. Honestly, sounds like a bloody nightmare place to work. As a manager, you have a duty to ensure that your direct reports don’t have to deal with those issues, never mind letting them go on for months. Piss poor management at work I am afraid. Honestly, get another job in a professional environment. It’ll be a lot better.

OMM 0000

In 20 years you've never worked with someone who comes in late and surfs the web all day? I find that hard to believe. If you aren't able to notice that, you probably aren't noticing the hangovers either.

Stepping Stone

OMM 0000 wrote: »

In 20 years you've never worked with someone who comes in late and surfs the web all day? I find that hard to believe. If you aren't able to notice that, you probably aren't noticing the hangovers either.

I have, just not since I was a teenager. I work in an industry with easy to measure targets. The more experience that I have, the better the workplace. I briefly worked in unprofessional places, but I quit after a week. You always know that if management is poor, then the staff will be poor too.

Like I said, as long as the work gets done, management are very relaxed in my place. They’re flexible about what you wear, working from home, hours, etc. But and it’s a big but, we’re all adults. We’re expected to behave in a certain way and we do it. If someone was asleep at their desk, I may leave it slide once but if they reported to my manager and it happened again I would be asking them for a chat to discuss what was happening. You can’t tell me that you think that it’s normal for this kind of thing to happen in the workplace and no action to be immediately taken? Come on, you had a cocaine addict asleep at her desk for months. How do you think that made everyone else feel? No wonder you have issues with people browsing the internet and coming in drunk or hungover. It’s really, really poor people management and surely you know that? Don’t you have training on how to get the best out of people and how to ensure that issues are resolved? As a normal employee in my company we get a lot of training on managing performance. Management get a hell of a lot more and it shows.

OMM 0000

Stepping Stone wrote: »

Come on, you had a cocaine addict asleep at her desk for months. How do you think that made everyone else feel? No wonder you have issues with people browsing the internet and coming in drunk or hungover. It’s really, really poor people management and surely you know that?

The company was a huge multinational and they have a process for dealing with addiction.

In every company I've worked in, there are people who come in late or who surf the web all day.

It is not believable you have never had colleagues who do this in nearly 20 years. I think the far more likely explanation is you're oblivious to it.

Stepping Stone

OMM 0000 wrote: »

The company was a huge multinational and they have a process for dealing with addiction.

In every company I've worked in, there are people who come in late or who surf the web all day.

It is not believable you have never had colleagues who do this in nearly 20 years. I think the far more likely explanation is you're oblivious to it.

Ah here, people sleeping at the desk, coming in drunk or hungover and spending the day surfing the net are not normal. It may be a large multinational, but poor management is poor management. The OP works for a large multinational too and seems to be having issues with poor management. They clearly said as much. It may very well be a case of the Peter Principle, I don’t know but what you see as appropriate is just not tolerated in most places.

OMM 0000

Stepping Stone wrote: »

Ah here, people sleeping at the desk, coming in drunk or hungover and spending the day surfing the net are not normal. It may be a large multinational, but poor management is poor management. The OP works for a large multinational too and seems to be having issues with poor management. They clearly said as much. It may very well be a case of the Peter Principle, I don’t know but what you see as appropriate is just not tolerated in most places.

Stop pretending I think surfing the web all day, coming in late or hungover, being drink or high at your desk is "appropriate".

You're being dishonest by pretending you've never seen anyone come in late in nearly 20 years and that being late is abnormal. No one here will agree with you, and there's tons of evidence to prove you're talking nonsense. Example: https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/7725-employees-late-for-work.html

I'm not going to continue this weird conversation.

Stepping Stone

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Stop pretending I think surfing the web all day, coming in late or hungover, being drink or high at your desk is "appropriate".

You're being dishonest by pretending you've never seen anyone come in late in nearly 20 years and that being late is abnormal. No one here will agree with you, and there's tons of evidence to prove you're talking nonsense. Example: https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/7725-employees-late-for-work.html

I'm not going to continue this weird conversation.

My point is that your views on employee behaviour is tainted by the fact that you’re working in a poor environment and clearly a poor manager. Most employees are not delusional about their performance. You have to remember that managers are employees too, so I presume that you’re open to admitting that by your own standards you are performing below expectations and you don’t see it?

Jim2007

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You're being dishonest by pretending you've never seen anyone come in late in nearly 20 years and that being late is abnormal. No one here will agree with you, and there's tons of evidence to prove you're talking nonsense. Example: https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/7725-employees-late-for-work.html

I have no problem accepting the statement. You need to appreciate that a US article does not represent anything but US experience....

I can't recall a single person being later for work in the morning without receiving notification that they were running late and it might happen once or twice a year in a team of nine or ten people. Hung over, being drunk etc.. certainly not. In fact the last time I encountered any of that was when I had a team of apprentices in Ireland 30 years ago.

Most of the people I work with are Swiss/German/French/Italian/Ukraine, none of these people would dare to turn up in an unfit condition for work. There is a reason why most of mainland Europe goes quite at about 10 on a week night - work in the morning!

Both my kids (in their late teens early 20s), never go out on a week night, nor do their friends. It is just not done.

I'd also people work much harder - no hanging around the water cooler, no long tea breaks or long lunches etc... but they also don't do overtime - 08:00 to 17:00 and then they are gone.

Just because you haven't experienced something does not mean other have not......

OMM 0000

Stepping Stone wrote: »

My point is that your views on employee behaviour is tainted by the fact that you’re working in a poor environment and clearly a poor manager. Most employees are not delusional about their performance. You have to remember that managers are employees too, so I presume that you’re open to admitting that by your own standards you are performing below expectations and you don’t see it?

I'm clearly a poor manager?

I haven't said anything about how I manage, so let me tell you my management style now.

I'm CTO (and interim CEO) of a software company in Japan. You can work whatever hours you want. You can work from home whenever you want. You have unlimited holidays. The only requirement is you are honest and you get the work done to the required standard. If you are dishonest and unwilling to change, you get fired. If your work is not able to meet the required standard, we try to figure out a solution. There are many possible solutions. As an example, a solution could be changing the role, e.g. I moved a poor performing programmer to an automation role where he thrived. None of my staff have quit.

In my previous job, I was director of software development and QA at a huge multinational in South Korea. It was an extremely strict company with oppressive rules. I fought hard to allow my team leave early for the dentist etc., as there was a lot of overtime - I was the only manager who got my team a give and take policy on timekeeping. I protected my team from all the politics which made the place miserable. Some web surfing and tardiness was fine as long as you got your work done to the required standard. I promoted internally and fired the sexist staff who were making the women on my team (and other teams) uncomfortable. None of my staff quit while I was there.

I'm not perfect but you would enjoy working for me.

My issue with the OPs story is he's claiming he's a brilliant employee yet he has received what appears to be a final written warning. Multinationals do not give them lightly and HR would have been involved so this isn't a rogue manager. There is of course a chance something terrible is going on, but the far more likely explanation is he's leaving out some massive details either by choice or because he doesn't want to admit them. He has hinted his performance may not have been good since April (extreme stress, health issues, death in the family) so perhaps he's unaware how this has been affecting those around him. His completely inability to open his mind that maybe he has been doing something wrong is the biggest problem here. As managers we can work with poor performers who are open and honest, but these "I'm perfect" employees are a nightmare to manage as they're like a brick wall.

mosii

Hi,I would think of going out on the sick for as long as i could,stress is a killer as you know.Stay out as long as you can ,even if on reduced wages, in the meantime management could change.If you were to get a heart attack or Cancer from stress,look where you would be.I hate managers like this,both directly and indirectly bullying and harassing people,just because of their selfishness .Also keep a record of every action from them,(day,date ,time and place, witnesses etc.)just in case of you having a case for constructive dismissal against them.
HEALTH IS WEALTH. Good luck and keep tough.

OMM 0000

mosii wrote: »

Hi,I would think of going out on the sick for as long as i could,stress is a killer as you know.Stay out as long as you can ,even if on reduced wages, in the meantime management could change.If you were to get a heart attack or Cancer from stress,look where you would be.I hate managers like this,both directly and indirectly bullying and harassing people,just because of their selfishness .Also keep a record of every action from them,(day,date ,time and place, witnesses etc.)just in case of you having a case for constructive dismissal against them.
HEALTH IS WEALTH. Good luck and keep tough.

From the sounds of things they don't care about his sick notes / stress and will probably fire him if he goes off sick.

mosii

OMM 0000 wrote: »

From the sounds of things they don't care about his sick notes / stress and will probably fire him if he goes off sick.

They might not care,but he can do it,Illness Benefit is statuary in this country,they cant stop him from doing so.

OMM 0000

mosii wrote: »

They might not care,but he can do it,Illness Benefit is statuary in this country,they cant stop him from doing so.

You can be fired for being sick.

I agree with your general point though that no job is worth your health.

MrsBean

OMM 0000 wrote: »

My issue with the OPs story is he's claiming he's a brilliant employee yet he has received what appears to be a final written warning.

That’s not the impression I got. The OP approached their manager about the issue first, asking if they can accommodate taking them off that task. They said ‘no and if you don’t do it, it will result in disciplinary’. As far as we know the OP continues to carry out their duties and is expected to have a formal meeting. To me, this is nowhere near final written warning, but is the start of a process which may get resolved amicably or may escalate to written warnings etc.

Your posts have come across quite antagonistic towards the OP and you are now derailing the thread with a combination of arguing with other posters and a long post about your career which is really just not helpful to the OP at all.

OMM 0000

OMM 000 wrote:

My issue with the OPs story is he's claiming he's a brilliant employee yet he has received what appears to be a final written warning.

MrsBean wrote: »

That’s not the impression I got.

antillia2020 wrote: »

He prepared a document saying I refused to do the additional role but did not mention the reason why I was asking for it. He also decided to make up a few things as well saying I always refuse to adapt to change and am not working in the companys best interests etc.

Let's not argue whether this is the final or second last written warning, but it's very clear the company are now making moves to fire the OP.

The solution to his problem is having a proper conversation with his manager about what the problem is and how he can solve it, instead of pretending it's all lies. The OP is in a position of weakness so the smart move is solving the problem.