Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

listermint

Reading the comments the not accounts and idiots are obviously still in full effect. Pushing levers right up till January.

It's actually hard not to believe that minister's are taken in by the bot accounts thinking they have a mandate of it because of twitter replies daily giving them confirmation bias

Seth Brundle

roosterman71 wrote: »

John Major has been speaking and he has ripped through the Tories and Brexit. To sum up his statement - it's an absolute cluster**** run by liars and clowns

https://twitter.com/antoguerrera/status/1325877143163842561?s=20

Some very powerful quotes from Major in that thread. Fair play to him but I don't think it will cause any ripples in Britain though.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Please do not just paste links and text here. A post has been removed.

Mr.Nice Guy

Going Strong wrote: »

John Redwood said he accepted that Biden now has a "clear mandate" in America, but he also claimed there was a "larger percentage mandate" for the EU referendum result, despite both equating to around 52% of the overall vote.

The Brexiteer also told the new leader of the country that the election result also demonstrated that Donald Trump had "considerable support for his Republican vision" with 70 million votes.

Notice how John Redwood has no problem sticking up for the losing side in the US election, yet it when it came to Brexit he had no interest whatsoever in the 48% losing side. Apparently that 'considerable support' doesn't matter a damn.

I was very impressed with John Major's contribution in the debate and he told some rarely heard home truths. It's getting a predictable response on social media from the Brexiter crowd.

CrabRevolution

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Notice how John Redwood has no problem sticking up for the losing side in the US election, yet it when it came to Brexit he had no interest whatsoever in the 48% losing side. Apparently that 'considerable support' doesn't matter a damn.

I was very impressed with John Major's contribution in the debate and he told some rarely heard home truths. It's getting a predictable response on social media from the Brexiter crowd.

I remember here 2/3 years ago (God it's depressing to think how long this saga has been going on repetitively ), around the time of May's first proposals for a future relationship with the EU, which were greeted with astonishment by EU leaders at how much they were expected to give the UK for so little in return.

There was a poster here who was well spoken, unfailingly polite and endlessly persistent, but an absolute brexit zealot. Among their many nonsensical repetitions was the idea that the EU were obliged to concede to the UK's demands because the UK had a mandate from 52% of its population. They refused to entertain the notion that this mandate wasn't binding on the EU or the member states. Apparently the UK referendum invalidated the entire government of 27 other EU states as well as that of the EU itself and replaced it with a single mandate for them all to give the UK the best deal possible.

It's the same here. Redwood reckons the USA is bound by the 4 year old wishes of 52% of the UK electorate, and not the 5 day old wishes of 52% of the American electorate...

54and56

Can anyone link to a video of Coveney's interview on Newsnight just now? I missed it by 5 minutes.

Widdensushi

54and56 wrote: »

Can anyone link to a video of Coveney's interview on Newsnight just now? I missed it by 5 minutes.

Do you think he has any sway on the bigger picture, I had high hopes for him him when he was fisheries minister, met him etc but he was a disgrace, no involvement with the industry

Strazdas

54and56 wrote: »

Can anyone link to a video of Coveney's interview on Newsnight just now? I missed it by 5 minutes.

Two clips from it :

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1325940515813138433

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1325941742848315392

Peregrinus

Going Strong wrote: »

Lads, we're fecked now.


John Redwood has told Joe Biden to get back in his box.

I think John Redwood, a man who was Secretary of State for Wales as recently as . . . (checks notes) . . . twenty-five years ago, and hasn't held a government post since, somewhat overestimates his relevance.

Mr.Nice Guy

Brendan Boyle spoke with Channel 4 and was very clear what the Biden administration's attitude will be towards the possibility of Johnson breaking international law with his bill. He's here from 4:00 on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCL9IPaLuwA

I got the impression there was surprise at how blunt he was about it. Some of the questions about Biden pushing for a border poll were silly, but I suppose it speaks to the sense of unease being felt.

fash

Going Strong wrote: »

Lads, we're fecked now.


John Redwood has told Joe Biden to get back in his box.


https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/westminster-news/conservative-mp-john-rewood-warns-joe-biden-6215718


A Brexiteer MP has penned what pro-Brexit newspapers have described as a 'warning letter' to president-elect Joe Biden over Brexit.

John Redwood said he accepted that Biden now has a "clear mandate" in America, but he also claimed there was a "larger percentage mandate" for the EU referendum result, despite both equating to around 52% of the overall vote.

The Brexiteer also told the new leader of the country that the election result also demonstrated that Donald Trump had "considerable support for his Republican vision" with 70 million votes.

He wrote: "The UK’s EU referendum gave us a larger percentage mandate for exit than your own convincing win, so you will understand the importance to us of becoming a truly independent country again on 1 January next year."

He urged the president-elect to work with the British government to achieve its goals on both sides of the Atlantic, denying there was a Tory plot to undermine the Good Friday Agreement (GFA).

Interesting that an illegal dodgy and vague vote of 51.9-48.1% which has never been repeated in the 4 year since for a government supported by a minority with one of the last popular PMs is a "clear mandate" - while a 51.6% (and rising) vote is not...

WhenPigsCry

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Brendan Boyle spoke with Channel 4 and was very clear what the Biden administration's attitude will be towards the possibility of Johnson breaking international law with his bill. He's here from 4:00 on:


I got the impression there was surprise at how blunt he was about it. Some of the questions about Biden pushing for a border poll were silly, but I suppose it speaks to the sense of unease being felt.

The interviewer was inviting bluntness by asking a closed question, “is there any chance of a deal?”

Mr.Wemmick

Finally, some sanity. Curious to see what Johnson's reaction will be today. I suspect change-it-all Cummings will want rid of the HOLs.

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1325935376712785921?s=20

Enzokk

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

Finally, some sanity. Curious to see what Johnson's reaction will be today. I suspect change-it-all Cummings will want rid of the HOLs.

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1325935376712785921?s=20

No surprise, will have to see what moves Johnson makes now. If he is committed to a deal he would drop the IM Bill clauses causing the trouble. If he isn't he will just go ahead with it and the upcoming finance bill will have similar clauses as well apparently.

Peregrinus

He'll drop the offending clauses from the IM Bill (and, if necesssary, from the Finance Bill) when he's willing to be seen to be committed to a deal. If that's going to happen it has to happen soon, but evidently it hasn't happened just yet.

devnull

Enzokk wrote: »

No surprise, will have to see what moves Johnson makes now. If he is committed to a deal he would drop the IM Bill clauses causing the trouble. If he isn't he will just go ahead with it and the upcoming finance bill will have similar clauses as well apparently.

The government has already vowed to reinstate the clauses when the legislation returns to the Commons.

Christy42

Going Strong wrote: »

Lads, we're fecked now.


John Redwood has told Joe Biden to get back in his box.


https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/westminster-news/conservative-mp-john-rewood-warns-joe-biden-6215718


A Brexiteer MP has penned what pro-Brexit newspapers have described as a 'warning letter' to president-elect Joe Biden over Brexit.

John Redwood said he accepted that Biden now has a "clear mandate" in America, but he also claimed there was a "larger percentage mandate" for the EU referendum result, despite both equating to around 52% of the overall vote.

The Brexiteer also told the new leader of the country that the election result also demonstrated that Donald Trump had "considerable support for his Republican vision" with 70 million votes.

He wrote: "The UK’s EU referendum gave us a larger percentage mandate for exit than your own convincing win, so you will understand the importance to us of becoming a truly independent country again on 1 January next year."

He urged the president-elect to work with the British government to achieve its goals on both sides of the Atlantic, denying there was a Tory plot to undermine the Good Friday Agreement (GFA).

Madness. There is this random belief that every other country on earth has a complete responsibility to make Brexit work. First the EU has to give a good deal. Now claiming Biden must abide by it. Leave/ don't leave but it doesn't give them the right to demand anyone give them handouts.

It is like leaving a job and demanding everyone else give you money because it was your right to leave your job and there should be no downsides.

Enzokk

devnull wrote: »

The government has already vowed to reinstate the clauses when the legislation returns to the Commons.

True, and our response to this is,

https://twitter.com/simoncoveney/status/1325899413638754307?s=20

So once again I am wondering what the actual heck is happening here. Does Johnson want a deal as he keeps telling leaders or is he pining for no-deal?

fash

Enzokk wrote: »

So once again I am wondering what the actual heck is happening here. Does Johnson want a deal as he keeps telling leaders or is he pining for no-deal?

The issue has always been that he wants (and promised) a cake and eat it Brexit - and now faces a choice between taking responsibility for a sh*t sandwich or having a sh*t tsunami he can try to blame the EU for.

trellheim

The UK government yesterday passed the Immigration bill removing all bar the Irish right to remain. Priti Patel was crowing about it yesterday.

When things like this happen the Commons can put the sections back in. Although yes the Lords can put them back in again the Parliament act means the commons can eventually force it through as written.

Leroy42

I think the UK simply overplayed their hand. The IMUK bill was meant to put pressure on the EU to grant more concessions (remembering that the UK are of the view that the EU are not negotiating in good faith).

But they didn't expect the backlash they received. They focused only on the domestic audience and the upper EU leaders, including Barnier. Hoping that yet another threat will finally bring the EU to their senses.

It all started to fall apart from the start when instead of going ballistic and pulling out of the talks (when they could reasonably have done) the EU simply gave the UK time to think about it and said they wouldn't accept it but would continue the talks in parallel. This gave Johnson the win he wanted (forcing the EU to negotiate) without actually crashing the talks or accepting anything.

Then the US got involved. The UK banked on Trump winning (which in itself is a terrible plan since Trump cannot be trusted and the only thing we do know is that he will do whatever suits him). Now with Biden winning then are even further behind the 8 ball. But rather than lose face they have to continue on to keep up the pretense that everything is going as planned.

Nothing that Johsnons government has done leads one to think they have anything under control, much less a multifaceted international diplomacy effort.

The question from Emma on Newsnight last night - that the negotiation tactic of the IMUK bill had worked, belies a widely held view that it is working. That hey have forced the EU back to the table, forced concessions and that this bluff will all be worth it.

In effect, when all the tricks and feints are pulled away, the UK are basically still in the position that nothing needs to be done with regard to NI and that eventually something, from somewhere, will work it out. Basically a Technology will solve the problem.

They haven't moved on from that position.

Mr.Wemmick

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

Finally, some sanity. Curious to see what Johnson's reaction will be today. I suspect change-it-all Cummings will want rid of the HOLs.

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1325935376712785921?s=20

The HOL is doing exactly what it was intended for, acting as a second check on government legislation, something that generations of Labour politicians have always disliked as it prevented policies that are "too radical" from being enacted into law.
Tories always liked this as the HOL usually had a conservative outlook (in the sense of not allowing radical changes as opposed to their political outlook).


There is no way a Conservative government will want to get rid of it.

Mr.Wemmick

Enzokk wrote: »

True, and our response to this is,

https://twitter.com/simoncoveney/status/1325899413638754307?s=20

So once again I am wondering what the actual heck is happening here. Does Johnson want a deal as he keeps telling leaders or is he pining for no-deal?

Last throw of the dice to give the appearance of strength to try to force more from a deal?

It's anyone guess what they are up to, but I suspect that's their plan: to confuse.

BluePlanet

Why should the EU trust the Tories at all should a deal be done?
Being that past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior; surely ANY deal done with this shower today will be rowed back on tomorrow when it suits them.

Let them live under WTO for a time.

Sam Russell

GB£ has gone below 89p=€1 for the first time since June 2020.

I doubt it means anything, unless the tunnel is leaking.

MBSnr

Sam Russell wrote: »

GB£ has gone below 89p=€1 for the first time since June 2020.

I doubt it means anything, unless the tunnel is leaking.

Not sure it's relevant as it dropped below 89p in first week of Sept before rising within a week to 92p. Guess some news dropped at that time (I can't recall..)

trellheim

The tunnel has to be exited good or bad in the next few days.

I just want to make some points re timelines.

1. Last MEP Europarl session is last week november first week december. Deal HAS to be discussed by Europarl in the plenary before the end of that session otherwise it needs to be pended off.

2. 23-26 November Europarl ratification vote ... not far off now.

3. EUCO 10/11 December see https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/CM-8-2020-INIT/en/pdf

it absolutely has to get settled soon !

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

GB£ has gone below 89p=€1 for the first time since June 2020.

I doubt it means anything, unless the tunnel is leaking.

Probably just means that the path to a resolution is now clearer as they now (think they) know who will be pulling the US end of the strings.

bobmalooka

Interesting contrast between how the Biden and Johnson administrations reported the details of their call today.

https://twitter.com/samcoatessky/status/1326261577755074563?s=21

They just don’t have a real plan do they?

Mr.Nice Guy

I'd be concerned that the Tories are simply going to push ahead with the Internal Market Bill but ramp up the rhetoric that they're doing it to protect the peace process, under a mistaken belief that by saying it over and over the Biden administration will believe it. That tactic might work on people in Britain, but we see through it over here, and the Biden administration will too.