Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

ExMachina1000

Nody wrote: »

And they are allowed to believe they were kidnapped by Aliens who used anal probes on them as well; it still does not make it an actual truth or fix any problems by claiming that leaving EU the Aliens will not be allowed to use probes.

Are you saying people are not entitled to have immigration concerns and grievances?

"Immediately prior to the referendum, data from Ipsos MORI showed that immigration/migration was the most cited issue when Britons were asked 'What do you see as the most/other important issue facing Britain today?', with 48% of respondents mentioning it when surveyed"

listermint

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Are you saying people are not entitled to have immigration concerns and grievances?

Based in factual reality ,of course.

Based on feelings and opinions. Nah they need to educate themselves

ExMachina1000

listermint wrote: »

Based in factual reality ,of course.

Based on feelings and opinions. Nah they need to educate themselves

It was the most cited issue. "They need to educate themselves " translates as my opinion is right I don't want to hear theirs. And then Brexit happens.

Nody

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

It was the most cited issue. "They need to educate themselves " translates as my opinion is right I don't want to hear theirs. And then Brexit happens.

Well in this case their opinion was not right as EU had zip all to do with non EU immigration which was the cited problem and hence Brexit will do zip all to fix it. That they believe lies and can't be bothered to educate themselves on what's actually happening may be the cause of Brexit but Brexit will also bite them the hardest in the ass in terms of effects. It's very much circular karma going on there to be honest; you get the government you deserve etc.

ancapailldorcha

Uncivil post deleted. Please bear the charter in mind when posting.

Mr.Nice Guy

Tony Connelly has written a thread outlining where both sides stand:

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1328074254496227328

They're said to be 'miles apart' on fishing. And as for the point of no return...

18/ But time really will be running out by the end of next week. Diplomats say early the following week is really the last cut off. A 600 page treaty has to be legally scrubbed and translated into 23 official languages.

Seems like something significant has to happen next week or there won't be time for a deal. Maybe the UK are now running down the clock.

An Ciarraioch

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Are you saying people are not entitled to have immigration concerns and grievances?

"Immediately prior to the referendum, data from Ipsos MORI showed that immigration/migration was the most cited issue when Britons were asked 'What do you see as the most/other important issue facing Britain today?', with 48% of respondents mentioning it when surveyed"

1) Non-EU immigration is now running significantly higher than EU immigration ever was, so if Brexit was sold as a solution, the practical result has been a complete failure.

2) Immigrants comprise 38% of NHS staff, and are net tax contributors to the UK economy.

ExMachina1000

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

1) Non-EU immigration is now running significantly higher than EU immigration ever was, so if Brexit was sold as a solution, the practical result has been a complete failure.

2) Immigrants comprise 38% of NHS staff, and are net tax contributors to the UK economy.

Seems to be some confusion about stances on immigration.
Grievances about immigration doesn't mean someone wants zero migrants. It might mean tighter controls on numbers or only allowing people who are part of a critical skills list.
Your NHS example shows how medical healthcare immigrants are absolutely vital.

Are immigrants with zero skills vital?

It's a reasonable debate to have but wont ever happen while people only jump to extremes.

The ironic thing about it is France and Germany among others are looking for a massive overhaul of schengen zone with the goal of really turning Europe into a fortress after the recent terrorist attacks which showed attackers moved through different countries to their destinations. The whole emphasis will be on fortifying Europes external border to allow for free safe travel within.

*I know the UK were not part of schengen but Europe is changing.

This of course is only related to terrorism not the 99.9 % of immigrants just want to work, live and contribute just like everyone else.

https://www.politico.eu/article/emmanuel-macron-refoundation-schengen-area/

Infini

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Tony Connelly has written a thread outlining where both sides stand:

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1328074254496227328

They're said to be 'miles apart' on fishing. And as for the point of no return...



Seems like something significant has to happen next week or there won't be time for a deal. Maybe the UK are now running down the clock.

Honestly i think unless the UK capitulates and accepts the EU's conditions it's simply not going to work and that's not even speaking on the Internal Market Bill shenanigans. I think we're honestly heading for a car crash scenario at this point, the EU can afford to both take the hit and wait till the UK comes looking seriously for a deal though it will be even LESS favorable after the new year for them. The hard truth is time is running out and the EU has other things namely the pandemic to sort out and wont have time for an incompetent conservative run UK after all the shenanigans of the last 4 years. Boris and friends are about to reap what they've sown and it's all on them they refused reason for drunken ideology so honestly they deserve to get reamed for all the bull they created.

This will be all on Boris's head plain and simple there's been warnings for months and they spurned any offers of extensions by the EU even with the pandemic running rampant. The sheer irony of this is just in how the Pandemic ultimately pissed off enough people to throw Trump out of office, the combination of the Pandemic AND a self inflicted car crash Brexit could finally wake enough people up in England to actually realise they've been conned by the conservatives for over a decade. It's just a pity that some people have to learn things the hard way before they realise how much they've been scammed by these wasters and incompetents.

PeadarCo

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Are immigrants with zero skills vital?

Yes they are.

Seasonal EU workers are critical to much of the UK farming sector. They do jobs that local workers won't do. It should be pointed out this situation is not unique to the UK. In Ireland earlier on in the year a major Irish Irish food producer(forget the name of the company) got into trouble for flying workers into Ireland from Romania to pick fruit and vegetables during the first lock down. The reason local workers weren't interested in the jobs in question.


https://www.businessinsider.com/uk-farm-workers-migrant-coronavirus-brexit-2020-6

So in short immigrants with zero skills are critical to the smooth operation of the UK economy.

ExMachina1000

PeadarCo wrote: »

Yes they are.

Seasonal EU workers are critical to much of the UK farming sector. They do jobs that local workers won't do. It should be pointed out this situation is not unique to the UK. In Ireland earlier on in the year a major Irish Irish food producer(forget the name of the company) got into trouble for flying workers into Ireland from Romania to pick fruit and vegetables during the first lock down. The reason local workers weren't interested in the jobs in question.


https://www.businessinsider.com/uk-farm-workers-migrant-coronavirus-brexit-2020-6

So in short immigrants with zero skills are critical to the smooth operation of the UK economy.

*seasonal workers flying straight into pre set jobs

But yes they are vital too

Capt'n Midnight

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Seems to be some confusion about stances on immigration.

Every EU country has complete control over non-EU citizens though once they let them in they are constrained by national laws and international human rights treaties.

Unemployed EU nationals who can't support themselves can also be sent home after a few months.

The UK stance on immigration appears to be a low barrier on entry and a much higher barrier on residency. As long as you are paying tax it's OK, but once you are a burden on the state they'd like you to go home pronto.

Leroy42

"ExMachina1000 wrote: »

It's a reasonable debate to have but wont ever happen while people only jump to extremes.

A debate can only be had if people are willing to discuss facts, not simply opinions. Perfectly fine to have opinions, but not if those opinions never change regardless of the facts.

Immigration was clearly a major issue in the vote, but then (and before tbf) it has been explained that Immigration adds to the economy, that the government could have had control if it wanted.

Yet people are not accepting those facts. They just feel its a problem. The real problem is the successive governments have failed to invest in schools, parks, hospitals, social care and services.

But rather than accept their own failures, easier to pick an external enemy.

PeadarCo

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

*seasonal workers flying straight into pre set jobs

But yes they are vital too

And one of the great things about the EU is that it means that seasonal workers don't need paperwork. Workers can come and go without the need for a Visa and all the paperwork that entails. And you also dealing with the attitude perfectly exemplified in your post that immigrants with zero skills are worthless/ a burden. I appreciate you have qualified your point but I have only picked one high profile example. When you go looking at the detail you will find immigrants with "zero skills" are critical to a countries economy whether seasonal or not because they do jobs locals won't do.

Obviously they can't stay in the UK long term without working. But then again that part of EU freedom of movement is irrelevant from the UKs point of view because they never tried to enforce it.

On the topic of the challenge Brexit represents, if you read my link and I get more if you want you have industry experts complaining about how Brexit impacts their ability to hire seasonal workers. So by leaving the EU, the UK is making it a lot harder for get the people they need to keep the economy ticking over. Now unless you think these businesses are lying the lack of EU immigrants will harm the UK economy and lively hoods of people who have grown up in the UK.

Spanish Eyes

Perfect timing, Cummings gone and now Johnson in self isolation due to contact with Covid positive colleague. Oh how convenient.

Seems programmed to me, but sure what do I know.

ExMachina1000

Leroy42 wrote: »

A debate can only be had if people are willing to discuss facts, not simply opinions. Perfectly fine to have opinions, but not if those opinions never change regardless of the facts.

Immigration was clearly a major issue in the vote, but then (and before tbf) it has been explained that Immigration adds to the economy, that the government could have had control if it wanted.

Yet people are not accepting those facts. They just feel its a problem. The real problem is the successive governments have failed to invest in schools, parks, hospitals, social care and services.

But rather than accept their own failures, easier to pick an external enemy.

That's a fair point.

But when people see that white Brits are now in the minority in their own capital city they look around and say we have too many immigrants. We want control over our borders.

Jizique

PeadarCo wrote: »

Yes they are.

Seasonal EU workers are critical to much of the UK farming sector. They do jobs that local workers won't do. It should be pointed out this situation is not unique to the UK. In Ireland earlier on in the year a major Irish Irish food producer(forget the name of the company) got into trouble for flying workers into Ireland from Romania to pick fruit and vegetables during the first lock down. The reason local workers weren't interested in the jobs in question.


https://www.businessinsider.com/uk-farm-workers-migrant-coronavirus-brexit-2020-6

So in short immigrants with zero skills are critical to the smooth operation of the UK economy.

Don’t forget hospitality - there is a lot going on behind the scenes in every hotel in London

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Can we keep the thread focused on Brexit, specifically current developments please? Anyone wishing to do so is welcome to continue the general immigration discussion on another thread.

An Ciarraioch

Worth noting today's signing of the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership involving most of East Asia, Australia and New Zealand, creating an economic trading bloc that would even dwarf the EU, so from a geopolitical perspective, a No Deal outcome becomes increasingly impractical for the UK:

https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2020/11/15/rcep-15-asia-pacific-nations-set-worlds-biggest-trade-pact

An Ciarraioch

The complete text of the EU-Norway Fisheries Agreement, which it appears is closer to Brussels' demands than London's:

https://thefishingdaily.com/latest-news/what-would-an-eu-norway-fisheries-agreement-model-mean-for-the-uk/

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Mod: Can we keep the thread focused on Brexit, specifically current developments please? Anyone wishing to do so is welcome to continue the general immigration discussion on another thread.

Three posts have been deleted.

Capt'n Midnight

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The complete text of the EU-Norway Fisheries Agreement, which it appears is closer to Brussels' demands than London's:

https://thefishingdaily.com/latest-news/what-would-an-eu-norway-fisheries-agreement-model-mean-for-the-uk/

And in order to get that deal Norway has to pay the EU the same per capita as the UK did when you include the rebate the UK used to get. And accept the four freedoms and a good few EU regulations etc. etc.


And by not joining the EU Norway doesn't get a Veto.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Three posts have been deleted.

Another post has been removed. Final warning. Please take the immigration discussion to a new thread. This one is about Brexit as things are now.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Another post has been removed. Final warning. Please take the immigration discussion to a new thread. This one is about Brexit as things are now.

Post deleted and sanction issued.

Strazdas

This quote from Johnson doesn't exactly sound encouraging - talking about how No Deal would be no bad thing.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-54958343

Roanmore

We keep hearing about how the fish industry will thrive after Brexit and these guys were one of the loudest groups in support of Brexit.
Now they are complaining that bureaucracy will finish off their industry.

https://mobile.twitter.com/bbcmartynoates/status/1327958985614495744

An Ciarraioch

Looking at the latest trade figures, exports to GB are now only 8% of the global total, and could soon be overtaken by China, but dependence on British imports isn't falling as swiftly, so it seems companies are holding off before switching suppliers:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/gei/goodsexportsandimportsseptember2020/

An Ciarraioch

Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man are all annoyed by a UK Government proposal to negotiate fishing rights over their territorial waters without the consent of their legislatures:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-guernsey-54930022

54and56

Roanmore wrote: »

We keep hearing about how the fish industry will thrive after Brexit and these guys were one of the loudest groups in support of Brexit.
Now they are complaining that bureaucracy will finish off their industry.

https://mobile.twitter.com/bbcmartynoates/status/1327958985614495744

It's the gold standard epitome of Brexit stupidity.

Let's not think it through, let's just strike a blow for Blighty and hope it'll be grand

This reply tweet sums it up best.

Nody

Roanmore wrote: »

We keep hearing about how the fish industry will thrive after Brexit and these guys were one of the loudest groups in support of Brexit.
Now they are complaining that bureaucracy will finish off their industry.

https://mobile.twitter.com/bbcmartynoates/status/1327958985614495744

If only someone would have thought to tell them that this would happen with their exports to the EU of fresh fish,oh wait...