Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

cml387

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

I tried to answer your questions that to say that a Visa Waiver Programme will probably be in place in 2022 but you seem to ignore the 2022 part of my answers.

I see from the Independent article you quote that it will also apply to Irish passport holders.

IAmTheReign

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

I tried to answer your questions that to say that a Visa Waiver Programme will probably be in place in 2022 but you seem to ignore the 2022 part of my answers.

The UK has already been added to the EUs visa waiver programme, EU2018/1806 Annex II.

listermint

cml387 wrote: »

I see from the Independent article you quote that it will also apply to Irish passport holders.

You would be wrong, Irish people that hold a valid irish passport hold a valid EU passport.

The Raging Bile Duct

listermint wrote: »

Its still a visa, you just dont have to hoop through interview processes and all the hikes in person to go on a holiday like a full visa.

Waiver or not you and i know what it is.

Well, I seem to...

It's a waiver specifically so you don't have to go through the hoops of the visa process. It isn't a visa.

listermint

IAmTheReign wrote: »

The UK has already been added to the EUs visa waiver programme, EU2018/1806 Annex II.

Which means they have to apply online and get the piece of paper just like all the other countries on it.

The Raging Bile Duct

IAmTheReign wrote: »

The UK has already been added to the EUs visa waiver programme, EU2018/1806 Annex II.

That means they'll still have to apply for their Visa Waiver through Etias just like, let's say, a US citizen would, right? In 2022 just for clarification.

cml387

listermint wrote: »

You would be wrong, Irish people that hold a valid irish passport hold a valid EU passport.

I must say this ETIAS thing came as a surprise to me.
It seems to be a Schengen thing, which we are outside and will be definitely outside if the CTA continues.

The Raging Bile Duct

cml387 wrote: »

I see from the Independent article you quote that it will also apply to Irish passport holders.

No it won't. Ireland, as part of the EU, wouldn't be viewed as a third country going into the Shengan Area.

listermint

cml387 wrote: »

I must say this ETIAS thing came as a surprise to me.
It seems to be a Schengen thing, which we are outside and will be definitely outside if the CTA continues.

Before going into some detail about ETIAS, I want to emphasise that the system has no implications for Ireland. Irish citizens will not be required to use it. It will not affect Irish citizens travelling to the Schengen area or other EU citizens coming to Ireland. ETIAS only impinges on this State because Ireland opted into the substantive Europol Regulation. Ireland must therefore be consulted on any changes to that Regulation.

reference for this is here

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/SP17000316

IAmTheReign

listermint wrote: »

Which means they have to apply online and get the piece of paper just like all the other countries on it.

Yes, once ETIAS is up and running they will have to sign up to it, that doesn't make ETIAS a visa though

listermint

IAmTheReign wrote: »

Yes, once ETIAS is up and running they will have to sign up to it, that doesn't make ETIAS a visa though

Well i suppose i like id say most people would regard logging into an online system. Putting in my information and giving a bunch of personal information about me and my family , paying for it . Waiting on its receipt and then getting a successful response. Having to print out that response and keep it with my passport when travelling to that country as a .. Visa.

The fact that i didnt have to go into an embassy to talk to someone or actually stick the document into my passport physically makes no odds to me. It is what it is.

Also NOTE, you can fail an Esta or ETIAS having a passport doesnt suffice... (visa)

ambro25

To cast the latest exchanges in a somewhat wider context.

British residents in the EU27 are being issued with biometric IDs by national governments, and will still enjoy an EHIC and won't have to queue in the non-EU lanes at borders (etc).

But EU27 residents in the UK with Settled Status are being issued with...nada. Whilst the hostile environment policies of old continue to put the onus of enforcement on banks, landlords, employers, hospitals <etc> who, invariably, ask anyone seemingly non-British to prove their entitlement to residence and service and...have all the difficulty in the world doing so, because they have no physical proof of their settled status. Round and round she goes.

So, visa or not-quite-visa for a beach holiday on the Med...is one of the nicer Brexit problems to have, tbh. The fact is, much more than travel rights, there's likely a ton of much more practical/critical issues brought about by Brexit, that very many British "invested" haven't fully considered yet, e.g. new/different tax regime for non-EU owners of residences in EU27 countries (amongst so many others). A brand new world awaits them in 2021/2022.

Lumen, that was a pretty good question earlier, and I'm afraid I don't know. I'm EU27 with a British wife, and took us out of the UK in early 2018, in anticipation. Not in Ireland, however, so I haven't taken as keen an interest in the interrelationship of the CTA and the WA provisions about right to remain. My wife got her local biometric ID and swapped (fully) her UK driving license last month. We're bricks-and-mortar shopping in the EU country next door, as it happens, so that'll make things interesting again before long.

Alun

ambro25 wrote: »

TBritish residents in the EU27 are being issued with biometric IDs by national governments, and will still enjoy an EHIC and won't have to queue in the non-EU lanes at borders (etc).

Ireland too?

trellheim

ETIAS is not yet in operation - expected 2022 at the earliest. see https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/smart-borders/etias_en

trellheim

Alun wrote: »

Ireland too?

No. We are already European Union residents.

THAT SAID we are not a schengen area country so expect us to be segregated with the UK as we will continue to share a Common Travel area. However we will be able to use the EU gates so I expect there to be two queues, one for e-gates for EU and one manual for all other.

This is all without prejudice to what they sort out in the ongoing negotiations.

ILoveYourVibes

ambro25 wrote: »

To cast the latest exchanges in a somewhat wider context.

British residents in the EU27 are being issued with biometric IDs by national governments,
But EU27 residents in the UK with Settled Status are being issued with...nada.

Why isn't it on a reciprocal basis?

ambro25

Alun wrote: »

Ireland too?

As replied to Lumen, I don't know I'm afraid.

Keep in mind that these are national measures taken by each EU27 (26 minus IE due to CTA?) under their respective legislation as it relates to 3rd party nationals (which, technically, the British are becoming overnight, when the WA ends)

But as an example, the citizeninformation.ie website explains that non-EEA family members of a UK citizen in Ireland need to upgarde their Irish Resident Permit (IRP) Card due to Brexit, and that UK driving licenses should be exchanged for an IE one brfore end 2020 (because that particular is still up in the air).

ambro25

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Why isn't it on a reciprocal basis?

Many reasons, technical and legal, mostly explained by the fact that immigration law about 3rd country nationals is a national competency for each member state, not a pooled EU competency, so not something which the EU could easily negotiate/deal with.

Put it that way, UKinEU27 have been sh@t by both sides, about as much as EU27inUK. Not a widely-known view, but very widely and commonly held in both groups (and witnessed at the coalface here).

But EU27 have been more pragmatic/less ideologically taken in than Brits over immigration (well, of Brits at least), a fact facilitated by the view of Brexit from the Continent. And some, like here in Luxembourg (likewise France and Spain, all with sizeable contingents of reasonably-resourced Brits), know well which side of their socio-economic bread those British immigrants help to butter.

"you don't want our waiters anymore? alright, they'll replace your chalet girls and travel reps, but we're keeping your bankers and lawyers - send more"

CelticRambler

cml387 wrote: »

Travel for holidays will require a valid passport for UK citizens as it does for us.
There should be no other restrictions other than those that Spain has for security purposes.
...
There seems to be a tendency to imagine (or wish for) all kinds of scary outcomes for the UK after January.

cml387 wrote: »

Where are you getting the idea that UK citizens will need a visa to vist EU countries?

cml387 wrote: »

I am talking about travel for holidays only.
Visas were not required before the single European act and Visa free travel is available to many countries outside the EU now. Yes there will be restrictions on UK people working in the EU and residing there if retired.

But John Bull going on holidasy to Portugal will not need a Visa.

Your information is well off-target. Brexit was (and seemingly still is) about putting an end to the Freedom of Movement enjoyed by British citizens amongst others. It doesn't matter what existed before, it's the rules that are currently in force that count, and as has been pointed out above, come Jan 1st, the UK becomes a "third country" and its citizens have no right to enter the EU without a visa. Not for work, not for shopping, not for holidays, not for studying, not for visiting family.

Like you, IAmTheReign thinks this situation has been worked around:

IAmTheReign wrote: »

EU law was amended last year to include the UK as one of the countries that doesn't need a visa for short term travel into the Schengen area.

but that's not the full story:

IAmTheReign wrote: »

There is a reciprocity amendment included so if the UK introduces visa requirements for any EU member state then visas will be required for UK nationals entering the schengen area.

On the contrary: the exemption for British citizens is conditional on their government granting a similar exemption for EU citizens visiting the UK.

This Regulation is based on the expectation that, in the interest of maintaining close relations, the United Kingdom will grant full visa reciprocity to the nationals of all Member States.

And guess what? With 35 days to go, the UK government has not offered this reciprocity. By default, therefore British travellers will require visas for entry from Jan 1st 2021 ... at least until some influential Tory tells Johnson to get his act together.

In case anyone missed it, the French caused chaos in Kent this week by carrying out a rehearsal on the Dover-Calais crossing, which included passport checks and requiring additional information, e.g. purpose of visit, confirmation by the British traveller that they had sufficient funds for their trip, and that they had six months validity left on their passport.

All of this is why - from Jan 1st and regardless of what happens as regards visas or waivers - British passport holders will queue up at the "scrutinise them more closely" desk. But don't worry - they knew they were voting for this ... :rolleyes:

Banana Republic 1

Is there any mention of Gibraltar in all this.

listermint

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Is there any mention of Gibraltar in all this.

Very little from the UK side. Alot from the Spanish side


As with everything else. They're probably waiting on Spanish concessions....

trellheim

Put it that way, UKinEU27 have been sh@t by both sides, about as much as EU27inUK. Not a widely-known view, but very widely and commonly held in both groups (and witnessed at the coalface here).

Except here in Ireland.

breatheme

So from what I gather, Irish passport holders will be able to live in the UK and EU27 post Brexit. While British passport holders will be able to live in Ireland post Brexit.

This actually makes an Irish passport quite the asset, doesn't it?

trellheim

breatheme wrote: »

So from what I gather, Irish passport holders will be able to live in the UK and EU27 post Brexit. While British passport holders will be able to live in Ireland post Brexit.

This actually makes an Irish passport quite the asset, doesn't it?

Slightly incorrect.

a) We *are* part of the EU27 it is not a separate entity.
b) no such thing as a British passport holder, the passport is the UK of GB &NI

An Ciarraioch

Barnier calls an "urgent" meeting of EU fisheries ministers for tomorrow:

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1332003402352615429

trellheim

In other , related news

#Brexit. The EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, has warned David Frost that without a major negotiating shift by Downing Street within the next 48 hours he will pull out of the Brexit negotiations in London this weekend, pushing the talks into a fresh crisis

https://twitter.com/HenkWeltje/status/1332016805985005570

of course others are spinning it differently

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnxEOEFW8AsEzEE.png

Infini

Guess this is it, either Boris buckles in the next 2 days or he'll bollocks the whole thing and EU simply has to pull out because times up.

ExMachina1000

Lumen wrote: »

There are over 100,000 UK citizens living in Ireland. I'd imagine most of them are eligible for Irish citizenship but simply haven't bothered applying because there has been no practical need to do so, not out of any lack of fondness for their adopted country.

The question is simply whether, IF the EU agrees to allow British citizens resident in Ireland to travel unrestricted in the EU for non-work purposes, whether there is any practical way for these people to prove their residence at an EU airport, given that to date Ireland hasn't issued any residence documentation to these people.

Almost all of them will have Irish drivers licenses (they should have been swapping their UK licenses through the transition period, as should Irish citizens with UK licenses), but that obviously doesn't prove much.

In the past couple of years the Irish passport office printing press has never been busier printing and sending out passports to eligible uk citizens.
They couldn't give a fiddlers about their Irish ancestry but only want the passport for visa free eu travel.

Its within the rules. I wouldn't say it makes a bit of a mockery of irish citizenship but it just it's a bit cheap or doesn't seem right. But again it's in the rules

ExMachina1000

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

In the past couple of years the Irish passport office printing press has never been busier printing and sending out passports to eligible uk citizens.
They couldn't give a fiddlers about their Irish ancestry but only want the passport for visa free eu travel.

Its within the rules. I wouldn't say it makes a bit of a mockery of irish citizenship but it just it's a bit cheap or doesn't seem right. But again it's in the rules

Most "UK" citizens living in Ireland are British because their parents were forced to emigrate to find work, their children had the chance to return home.
For many it isn't just about EU travel, it's about reclaiming their Irish heritage.

An Ciarraioch

And as for Lumen's point on British nationals in Ireland, since Brexit they have been the second-highest participants in citizenship ceremonies, behind only Polish applicants, and indeed were the most active at the last ceremony, in March:

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0302/1119647-citizenship-ceremonies/

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-citizenship-ceremonies-5000-5029419-Mar2020/