Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

fly_agaric

Deleted User wrote: »

Most "UK" citizens living in Ireland are British because their parents were forced to emigrate to find work, their children had the chance to return home.
For many it isn't just about EU travel, it's about reclaiming their Irish heritage.

Seems they've really reconected with that heritage since Brexit!

7.4 k 1st time applicants [for an Irish passport] in GB in 2015
59.9 k 1st time applicants in GB in 2019 (710 % increase)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/30/brexit-730000-britons-acquired-non-uk-eu-irish-passports-since-2016

I'm sure they may have told an overripe paddy irishman joke in their time or maybe visited the capital of Eire on a stag do!

Ah I should stop before it becomes a hobbyhorse given I posted about it before.

tanko

Does having a parent or grandparent born on the Island of Ireland entitle a person to an Irish passport?

An Ciarraioch

Yes, as far as grandparent, and doesn't matter if they're from the North or the South.

Strazdas

tanko wrote: »

Does having a parent or grandparent born on the Island of Ireland entitle a person to an Irish passport?

Yes indeed. A person's grandparent could have been a loyalist from East Belfast and they would be entitled to a passport.

tanko

Any idea how many people living in GB are entitled to an Irish passport and will they have more freedom to live and travel in the EU than British people who don't have an Irish passport or will it all depend on what kind of a deal is done if any.

listermint

tanko wrote: »

Any idea how many people living in GB are entitled to an Irish passport and will they have more freedom to live and travel in the EU than British people who don't have an Irish passport or will it all depend on what kind of a deal is done if any.

No

And yes, doesn't matter what deal is done the UK is still third country and can't have the same level of rights as EU citizens.

CelticRambler

Here's a thought: in the absence of any deal (at all) what'll happen to UK passport holders who happen to be in the Schengen Area but who haven't applied for or been granted settled status because (for example) they haven't committed to a particular job/lover/country, and then go "home" for Christmas? Will they be reminded when they turn up at the airport that they can only stay for 90 days? Assuming they have their visa in order! :pac:

Prompted by an enquiry by one of my young festival friends today, who's been offered a job in Germany (where she's been living since her post-grad student days) working for a UK company. The company wants her to work on a freelance basis; they are of the opinion that "Brexit won't change anything ..." She's also been accepted into an EU-based paid apprenticeship; the course provider is of the opinion that "Brexit won't change anything ..."

I tried not to frighten her too much.

listermint

CelticRambler wrote: »

Here's a thought: in the absence of any deal (at all) what'll happen to UK passport holders who happen to be in the Schengen Area but who haven't applied for or been granted settled status because (for example) they haven't committed to a particular job/lover/country, and then go "home" for Christmas? Will they be reminded when they turn up at the airport that they can only stay for 90 days? Assuming they have their visa in order! :pac:

Prompted by an enquiry by one of my young festival friends today, who's been offered a job in Germany (where she's been living since her post-grad student days) working for a UK company. The company wants her to work on a freelance basis; they are of the opinion that "Brexit won't change anything ..." She's also been accepted into an EU-based paid apprenticeship; the course provider is of the opinion that "Brexit won't change anything ..."

I tried not to frighten her too much.

These people will have to pull their finger out of their arse and start making proper decisions. Either go home or normalise their citizenship or working visa. There is no other options. No one is coming to rescue them and the luxury to live and work and holiday freely in 27 EU nations is gone forever or until such a time when the UK acts like an adult and engages completely in the EU project.

ambro25

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

And as for Lumen's point on British nationals in Ireland, since Brexit they have been the second-highest participants in citizenship ceremonies, behind only Polish applicants, and indeed were the most active at the last ceremony, in March:

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0302/1119647-citizenship-ceremonies/

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-citizenship-ceremonies-5000-5029419-Mar2020/

As I recall (vaguely from articles and stats seen over time), British have been at the top of nationalities participating in citizenship ceremonies throughout the EU27 for a good couple of years now.

Likely not in the numbers seen iin Ireland (for historical, cultural and geographical readons no doubt), but with similarly-stratospheric increase ratios relative to pre-Brexit times.

Brexit will have become a catalyst for many dual-nationality (Brit/EU27) couples who would never bother otherwise. We wouldn't have. But Mrs will be going for French shortly, and we're both looking at Lux in 2 to 3 years' time.

tanko

listermint wrote: »

No

And yes, doesn't matter what deal is done the UK is still third country and can't have the same level of rights as EU citizens.

So why would a British person get an Irish passport, what can they gain from it, if anything?

tanko

tanko wrote: »

So why would a British person get an Irish passport, what can they gain from it, if anything?

Getting an Irish passport means that they are Irish, and therefore EU citizens. They get EU rights back that their UK citizenship is losing.

ExMachina1000

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Getting an Irish passport means that they are Irish, and therefore EU citizens. They get EU rights back that their UK citizenship is losing.

Also for an Irish person living here since birth to be given an Irish passport they must have a psc.
Whereas someone who has never even set foot in the country can order one without .

It's harder to get a first time passport if you've lived here your entire life than it is if you happen to have a granny from Ireland.
Irish citizenship is cheap ( not in monetary terms)

Banana Republic 1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Getting an Irish passport means that they are Irish, and therefore EU citizens. They get EU rights back that their UK citizenship is losing.

Irish ness come with your birth certificate not passport.

Sam Russell

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Also for an Irish person living here since birth to be given an Irish passport they must have a psc.
Whereas someone who has never even set foot in the country can order one without .

It's harder to get a first time passport if you've lived here your entire life than it is if you happen to have a granny from Ireland.
Irish citizenship is cheap ( not in monetary terms)

Neither of the above points are correct.

I know someone whose two year old daughter has a passport and no PSC.

For someone to claim Irish citizen because they have an Irish born grandmother is required to supply significant original certified documentation. [Birth cert for GM. Marriage cert for GM. Birth cert for parent. Marriage cert for parent. Birth cert for self.] Possibly a lot of other documents as well. Add a lot of difficulties if this has to be done through the post.

PSC is trivial by comparison.



Not trivial.

Banana Republic 1

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Irish ness come with your birth certificate not passport.

Not at all. I have relatives born and raised in London who have more "Irish ness" in them than most people I know living here.

CelticRambler

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Whereas someone who has never even set foot in the country can order one without .

It's harder to get a first time passport if you've lived here your entire life than it is if you happen to have a granny from Ireland.
Irish citizenship is cheap ( not in monetary terms)

Yeah, right. Try telling that to the formerMrsCR who had to jump through several hoops to prove that she was related to her Dublin-born father who'd let his Irish citizenship lapse while living in England, so she was reared on a UK passport. Even being married to me wasn't enough on its own to get her a first Irish passport.

And unfortunately for her, after she decided to unmarry me, she followed in her father's footsteps and let her Irish passport lapse. She has an application in for renewal at the moment, but can't proceed with it as she has to show her face at the passport office in London (along with her documentation and mine - good job we're still on friendly terms :rolleyes: ) ... but she can't go to London on account of successive lockdowns.

But she's determined to get it all the same, so that she can travel to France at short notice on the same terms as our EU children.

Capt'n Midnight

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Barnier calls an "urgent" meeting of EU fisheries ministers for tomorrow:

twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1332003402352615429

Small fry.


Looks like there'll be a delay in the equivalence assessments. It's worth £26Bn a year to the UK

Brussels has granted temporary equivalence derivatives for clearing houses in London, but in the absence of equivalence, EU banks will have to stop using platforms in Britain for trading swaps and euro-denominated stocks from January.

Strazdas

tanko wrote: »

So why would a British person get an Irish passport, what can they gain from it, if anything?

Lots of benefits if they plan on doing anything in Europe. If they visit, than can go through the EU lane at at the airport (much faster after Brexit) and it entitles them to work, study or live anywhere in the EU.

Banana Republic 1

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

No. I’m talking about the what is required to get a passport. Either you where born here or you have a parent or grandparent that was. Having a passport doesn’t legally mean your Irish.

Having an Irish passport makes you a citizen of Ireland legally! (only Irish people who have citizenship by birth, ancestry or naturalisation can obtain one)
This also includes the foreigners from afar who go through the "citizenship ceremonies" despite having zero Irish blood or connections.

Banana Republic 1

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

Sam Russell

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

No. I’m talking about the what is required to get a passport. Either you where born here or you have a parent or grandparent that was. Having a passport doesn’t legally mean your Irish.

Yes it does.

You cannot get an Irish passport without proving you are born Irish, born as a child of an Irish person and so is an Irish person, or born of a person who qualifies because their parent was qualified as an Irish person.

It is a complicated procedure, but a passport is a way of proving you are legally Irish.

Banana Republic 1

Sam Russell wrote: »

Yes it does.

You cannot get an Irish passport without proving you are born Irish, born as a child of an Irish person and so is an Irish person, or born of a person who qualifies because their parent was qualified as an Irish person.

It is a complicated procedure, but a passport is a way of proving you are legally Irish.

Fine, you’ve made it seem I’m some sort of xenophobe from the tone taken in these last posts. But in the end my point stands. I apologise for my part.

An Ciarraioch

Deleted User wrote: »

Having an Irish passport makes you a citizen of Ireland legally! (only Irish people who have citizenship by birth, ancestry or naturalisation can obtain one)
This also includes the foreigners from afar who go through the "citizenship ceremonies" despite having zero Irish blood or connections.

Indeed (and we run the risk of going wildly OT here), and in the latter instance, there's the further distinction between EU nationals, whose primary benefit from gaining dual citizenship is the right to vote, and non-EU nationals, who acquire freedom of movement across the bloc.

Seth Brundle

trellheim wrote: »

In other , related news

#Brexit. The EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, has warned David Frost that without a major negotiating shift by Downing Street within the next 48 hours he will pull out of the Brexit negotiations in London this weekend, pushing the talks into a fresh crisis

https://twitter.com/HenkWeltje/status/1332016805985005570

As the original tweet isn't available anymorr, is there another source for this as I can't see anything about it myself?

Sam Russell

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Fine, you’ve made it seem I’m some sort of xenophobe from the tone taken in these last posts. But in the end my point stands. I apologise for my part.

That is not the intention.

We have a lot of terms used in common parlance such as 'non national' or 'new Irish' to cover people who have achieved Irish-ness other than by descent. It does not make anyone a xenophobe to make those distinctions unless they intend them as a basis for discrimination or as an insult.

We accept such people to represent us as an Irish entrant in international sport.

McGiver

listermint wrote:

These people will have to pull their finger out of their arse and start making proper decisions. Either go home or normalise their citizenship or working visa. There is no other options. No one is coming to rescue them and the luxury to live and work and holiday freely in 27 EU nations is gone forever or until such a time when the UK acts like an adult and engages completely in the EU project.

Not necessarily. They can just join the EEA:
1. Sign here please from now on (all EU laws)
2. Annual fee
3. Freedom of movement

ExMachina1000

Sam Russell wrote: »

Neither of the above points are correct.

I know someone whose two year old daughter has a passport and no PSC.

For someone to claim Irish citizen because they have an Irish born grandmother is required to supply significant original certified documentation. [Birth cert for GM. Marriage cert for GM. Birth cert for parent. Marriage cert for parent. Birth cert for self.] Possibly a lot of other documents as well. Add a lot of difficulties if this has to be done through the post.

PSC is trivial by comparison.



Not trivial.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0918/1076767-passport-psc/

You are correct it seems. They changed the rule again last year

listermint

McGiver wrote: »

Not necessarily. They can just join the EEA:
1. Sign here please from now on (all EU laws)
2. Annual fee
3. Freedom of movement

Joining the EEA is an EU project. They would need to join completely to it.

Hence my point. The pick and mix isn't going to cut it.

tanko

Sam Russell wrote: »

Yes it does.

You cannot get an Irish passport without proving you are born Irish, born as a child of an Irish person and so is an Irish person, or born of a person who qualifies because their parent was qualified as an Irish person.

It is a complicated procedure, but a passport is a way of proving you are legally Irish.

So does that mean that in the event of a no deal Brexit a person who was born in and has lived all their life in London but has an Irish passport because their granny was Irish will be able to live and work anywhere in the EU just the same as any other EU citizen?

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

Thread reopened. Listermint and BananRepublic carded. Please be civil to each other and be polite. If not out of respect to each other, then at least so that other posters don't have to hear silly one line snipes.