Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Professor Moriarty

Shelga wrote: »

If there’s no deal, do they retain all their own waters for fishing, but have no one to sell the fish to?

The word fish has lost all meaning for me in the last few days.

Interestingly, most English fishing quotas are foreign owned.

An Ciarraioch

And there duly goes the first Lords amendment:

https://twitter.com/PARLYapp/status/1336054514294673411

Capt'n Midnight

Shelga wrote: »

If there’s no deal, do they retain all their own waters for fishing, but have no one to sell the fish to?

The word fish has lost all meaning for me in the last few days.

No and yes-ish.

No because there are lots of treaties that predate the EU that allow other countries to access their waters between when King Charles II gave fishermen from the town of Burges access back in 1666 and the current re-negotiations of the Faroe Island deals which will not doubt extend the transition arrangement where the Faroese have lots more access to UK waters than visa-versa.


Yes-ish because UK fish will be more expensive and may not be as fresh

Because tariffs, ban on chilled fresh fish so only frozen stuff ? In the past lots (most?) of the foreign trawlers landed most of their catch in non-UK ports avoiding the local economy and delays getting to market, delays that will be worse now with customs and forms and what not.

ElJeffe

Europe are going to throw us overboard again aren't they?

Hurrache

ElJeffe wrote: »

Europe are going to throw us overboard again aren't they?

Explain "again" and "Europe"?

J Mysterio

ElJeffe wrote: »

Europe are going to throw us overboard again aren't they?

No

Sam Russell

ElJeffe wrote: »

Europe are going to throw us overboard again aren't they?

Why would you think that?

The NI border has ben centre of negotiations for the last 4 years, and centre of our Dept of Foreign Affairs for five years.

The EU as a few big bazookas they can use.

1. Financial - cheap loans and grants.

2. Subsidize RORO ferries to bypass the UK.

3. Intervene in the markets most affecting us - beef and cheese.

4. Put sanctions onto the UK if they breach the WA.

5. Cause problems at Calais, inspect thoroughly all UK traffic into and out of EU. Goods, licences, CoO, CE standards, etc,

I am sure there are plenty of ways that I cannot think of - but I am sure there are plenty more.

They do not even need to be subtle.

VinLieger

ElJeffe wrote: »

Europe are going to throw us overboard again aren't they?

No, stop reading the telegraph and express

Seth Brundle

Sam Russell wrote: »

The NI border has ben centre of negotiations for the last 4 years, and centre of our Dept of Foreign Affairs for five years.

Credit to them but the Dept of Foreign Affairs have played a blinder with all of this.
To think back, the British government wanted the EU to do a deal and then address NI and the EU said no, NI comes first. Imagine if they didn't do that?
This all obviously follows the Dept mandarins giving a tutorial to the EU on how little you could trust the British. I'd say the EU were glad of the heads up.

cameramonkey

There will be a deal one way or another, maybe not this time but eventually. The British are all over the place, they should just walk away if they feel their position is so strong but of course they understand they are in a very vulnerable position . You always get this bluster and bull**** from both sides in talks, it makes the politicians and mandarins feel important, I heard Mairead McGuinness on the radio today, you would swear she was turning base metal into gold they way she was blowing her own trumpet. When the agreement is eventually pulled from the jaws of disaster they will all agree that they are a wonderful bunch of politicians and truly no one else could have forged such an amazing deal. It is all just a big Christmas pantomime for the plebs especially the English nationalist ones becasue they have to be persuaded that a few trawler loads of fish is what their Brexit will eventually amount to. They Brits are bluffing and that has always been their game, this time their bluff will be called and there is nothing they can do about it. They have sleep walked into a trap of their own making, hoisted by my their own petard. You are welcome.

Junkyard Tom

Seth Brundle wrote: »

This all obviously follows the Dept mandarins giving a tutorial to the EU on how little you could trust the British. I'd say the EU were glad of the heads up.

Generations of dealing with the British government made it eminently predictable.

storker

awec wrote: »

Neither side wants to be the one that pulls the plug.

Boris wants the EU to walk away so he can blame them for being intransigent and unreasonable when the **** hits the fan.

The EU want to avoid being the ones to walk away to avoid giving Boris the opportunity to try and blame them for Britain's certain upcoming woes.

If this is indeed the case, then I don't understand the EU's anxiety here. The EU is going to get the blame for the Brexit Badness whatever happens and whoever breaks off the talks, and the faithful will it it all up with a spoon and ask for seconds because in their minds it can never be that Brexit was a bad idea implemented badly.

reslfj

dogbert27 wrote: »

Winters wrote: »

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Frost now demanding that British fishing boats would have to be wholly owned by Britons, rather than licensing them to foreign owners, as happens at present:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/07/michel-barnier-says-brexit-talks-will-not-go-beyond-wednesday

Am i correct in saying the UK could have done than while they were an EU member? I think another EU member has that in affect although it may be an EFTA member im thinking of.

I think Denmark have it

Denmark is an EU member state and has no opt-outs in this area. It has allowed some of its quotas for Pelagic fish to be acquired and used by Swedish owned boats (I believe the boats use Danish ports).

But this is like in the UK purely by national law and has little to do with EU or EU rules.
In the UK the boats are UK registered boats normally owned by UK companies which happens to have non-UK owners. The quotas has been sold to these boat under UK law and are private 'property' (rights).

These UK quotas will have to be bought back at full value, if ownership should be changed.

Lars

Infini

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Generations of dealing with the British government made it eminently predictable.

Their government's past behavior is also why the term "the brits' are at it again" has become memeworthy in it's own right. Their goverment's in the past were always arrogant or bullying in one way or another towards here. Just like how the troubles were starting off back in the early 70's all we could do is protest but we couldn't do much to actually help those up there because the UK was in the stronger position and force us to back down. It's only because of the EU and how we've used the single market to spread our interest's that Ireland is now ironically in a position of power and Britain is the weaker partner and ironically because it chose this.

The difference is we aren't vindictive about thing's but we'll be forced to react and protect ourselves if Boris act's up and leaves us no choice rather than to "punish" them. That's the lie that is always being pushed with them in the end they're being "punished" when in reality what's happening is they're suffering the consequences of their choices because they refuse to take responsibilty.

jelem

Fuascailteoir wrote: »

And don't forget one of the most important things in this epic odyssey, you will be able to have a different colour passport

i recall many years ago a person whom identified with a certain section of the population,
whom used irish as a negative against me as i had aquired an irish accent. heard clearly by some,
it was on production of passports the red face and silence appeared as mine was uk and the individual was
brit\irish == i refrained from voicing "half a paddy" lol

Strazdas

storker wrote: »

If this is indeed the case, then I don't understand the EU's anxiety here. The EU is going to get the blame for the Brexit Badness whatever happens and whoever breaks off the talks, and the faithful will it it all up with a spoon and ask for seconds because in their minds it can never be that Brexit was a bad idea implemented badly.

Not necessarily a problem for the EU (or Ireland) though. I suspect a lot of people will just zone out of anything UK related after Jan 1st and not even listen to their blaming and scapegoating. It will have left everything and decided to isolate itself. They can make as much noise as they like - nobody will even care.

BonnieSituation

I heard Mordaunt in the Commons and it made me seethe. I've lost all interest now, I'm just waiting to pull the trigger on a few shares I have over the next week. And that's literally the height of my interest in a deal.

Junkyard Tom

Infini wrote: »

It's only because of the EU and how we've used the single market to spread our interest's that Ireland is now ironically in a position of power and Britain is the weaker partner and ironically because it chose this.

I can't help but consider anti-EU Irish people as either frauds or fools for exactly that reason. Having voiced our concerns about the former border we'd have been metaphorically patted on the head and told to 'shut up', by our neighbours, had we not had the force of the rest of the EU behind us.

storker

Strazdas wrote: »

Not necessarily a problem for the EU (or Ireland) though.

Exactly. Which is why I wonder that they even care about being painted as the Bad Guy.

J Mysterio

357 'right honourable' (guffaw), MP's voted to reinstall those parts of the IM Bill which violate international law. 357.

Voting for this once wasn't enough. The lords removed it and they had to have it back.

Utterly shameless.

https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1336079315377778689?s=20

ancapailldorcha

Thread tidied up and troll nuked.

trellheim

The House of Commons rejected all the IMB amendments, back to the Lords for ping-pong, the notwithstanding clauses are back in.

Debate (long and full of immense guff ) here

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-12-07/debates/03F9AA70-3B1F-453B-A834-0498A5DDF1BF/UnitedKingdomInternalMarketBill

The following quote from Ian Paisley Jr should be read if you've low blood pressure

Ian Paisley
I thank the Minister for allowing me to intervene in this way. Does he welcome the comments made by the Irish Foreign Minister, Mr Coveney, who said that, essentially, all the commentary for the past three years on erecting borders on the island of Ireland was basically a game of bluff by the Irish Republic? Does he welcome the fact that it has now conceded that point?

joeysoap

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Edit: imho Brexit is an opportunity for Irish businesses to have the UK businesses cakes and eat them too. Replacing British products with Irish products on European shelves

I was in Bruges last year for a few days. Couldn’t help notice that a LOT of the restaurants were advertising their beef as Scottish. There should more of opportunities for Irish producers to get this market if it goes up for grabs.

I thought if the uk introduced the I M bill the Eu would break off negotiations?

We’ll have to see how Biden will take it ( we know he won’t be too pleased but the Uk is a decent sized market when all is said and done)

Infini

J Mysterio wrote: »

357 'right honourable' (guffaw), MP's voted to reinstall those parts of the IM Bill which violate international law. 357.

Voting for this once wasn't enough. The lords removed it and they had to have it back.

Utterly shameless.

https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1336079315377778689?s=20

Honestly this is "no deal" confirmation in my opinion, they don't want a deal and everything was a pretense to run down the clock. I honestly hope come Thursday if Boris hasn't backed down that that he and his conspirator's delivered this and they're made to answer for it.

I'm all but expecting an activation of no deal contingencies at this point by the EU. As much as many want a deal the truth is any deal with this government would be a deal with liar's, cheats and grifters and wouldn't be worth the paper it's written on. As such these fools need to be held to account and made to answer for their incompetence, they rejected all attempt's to avoid this. At the minimum, Boris and his conspirators need to be flushed just like that other Turd was across the Atlantic. Until they're gone there's no credibility with them so it would be a waste of time until a non Tory Government is in place that might be able to restore some shread of credibility.

fash

Infini wrote: »

Boris was always intent on doing this, it was so obvious everyone saw it from a mile off.

I don't think so- if "no deal" was his plan all along, he would have done so by now. Rather he was hoping for a cake and eat it deal and is now flying by the seat of his pants and responding on whim.

fash

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Even if there is a No Deal crash out, the EU will be open to continued negotiations.

Even if there is still no deal in 20 years, the EU will be open to continued negotiations.

Why not? It can't get worse than No Deal.

oh yes it can - wait until the UK starts breaching the WA, refuses to acknowledge the dispute resolution mechanisms and the EU starts disapplying the WA in specific and limited ways - and see what happens then.

Yyhhuuu

Infini wrote: »

Honestly I think they know at this point that the ball is in the UK's court. The EU has rules and principals it will always stick to. Cant save the UK from itself if Boris deliberately wants to drive his country off the cliffs of dover. Its up to the UK to either back down or own its choices.

The Daily Mail claims it's the demands of the EU insisting UK agree to all present and Now FUTURE laws of EU a major stumbling block and that Macron's the chief agitator behind driving a harder bargain but Germany want to go easier. Dont know who to believe

Peregrinus

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

The Daily Mail claims it's the demands of the EU insisting UK agree to all present and Now FUTURE laws of EU a major stumbling block and that Macron's the chief agitator behind driving a harder bargain but Germany want to go easier. Dont know who to believe

Pro tip: Don't believe the Daily Mail.

Yyhhuuu

Peregrinus wrote: »

Pro tip: Don't believe the Daily Mail.

Of course the Daily Mail is very biased and in the past an anti- Irish and now anti-EU rag.

paul71

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

Of course the Daily Mail is very biased and in the past an anti- Irish and now anti-EU rag.

It is only selectively anti-european, it was after all an admirer of a certain German politician of the past.


(Correction he was Austrian)