Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Hurrache

I accidentally hit the AM button on my radio this morning which sent me to BBC Radio Ulster with Stephen Nolan so I left it on. Unionists are spitting blood and saying the DUP are finished in the north, and Nolan can't get any representative from the DUP to come on and back up their decision to push for a Brexit.

edit: Donaldson just came on now.

BonnieSituation

Seth Brundle wrote: »

You're forgetting that Britain has no friends, only interests!

"We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."
Lord Palmerston 1784–1865
British statesman & Prime Minister, 1855–8, 1859–65

In his defence, part of us were part of the UK then. I wonder if he would have thought that his predecessors did a "bang up job" in that most integral part of the Kingdom? I'm sure he thought we couldn't have saved ourselves as well.

mrunsure

Do people here care about keeping free movement between Ireland and England? Is there any likelihood of that disappearing?

VinLieger

Hurrache wrote: »

I accidentally hit the AM button on my radio this morning which sent me to BBC Radio Ulster with Stephen Nolan so I left it on. Unionists are spitting blood and saying the DUP are finished in the north, and Nolan can't get any representative from the DUP to come on and back up their decision to push for a Brexit.

edit: Donaldson just came on now.

Listening now, hes just denying reality, its rather pathetic but tbh what else have we come to expect from the DUP

BonnieSituation

Hurrache wrote: »

I accidentally hit the AM button on my radio this morning which sent me to BBC Radio Ulster with Stephen Nolan so I left it on. Unionists are spitting blood and saying the DUP are finished in the north, and Nolan can't get any representative from the DUP to come on and back up their decision to push for a Brexit.

edit: Donaldson just came on now.

So, Unionists who hadn't a clue about what was going on until yesterday are gonna, what? Vote Alliance?

Lads, those bigoted Loyalists that are basically the squeaky wheel in this whole thing and are best either being ignored, or given a load of oil, cos, they've not a notion.

You'd swear the last 4 years hadn't happened that they feel the need to get apoplectic on 09/12/20. Remember when they got apoplectic on 04/12/2017?

Same shít different talking point. They're not worth the energy.

BonnieSituation

mrunsure wrote: »

Do people here care about keeping free movement between Ireland and England? Is there any likelihood of that disappearing?

As long as British law treats us as non-aliens and the CTA exists you've nothing to worry about.

weemcd

Hurrache wrote: »

I accidentally hit the AM button on my radio this morning which sent me to BBC Radio Ulster with Stephen Nolan so I left it on. Unionists are spitting blood and saying the DUP are finished in the north, and Nolan can't get any representative from the DUP to come on and back up their decision to push for a Brexit.

edit: Donaldson just came on now.

The DUP signed their own death warrant by pushing for the hardest Brexit. The lack of foresight is not surprising, but even for them this was always going to be a terrible move, one with dire consequences for their precious Union. The sooner this island is rid of them, and Nolan too for that matter, the better. The slow decline of Unionism is gathering rapid pace.

VinLieger

weemcd wrote: »

The DUP signed their own death warrant by pushing for the hardest Brexit. The lack of foresight is not surprising, but even for them this was always going to be a terrible move, one with dire consequences for their precious Union. The sooner this island is rid of them, and Nolan too for that matter, the better. The slow decline of Unionism is gathering rapid pace.

How will we ever be rid of the DUP or Nolan?

BonnieSituation

BonnieSituation wrote: »

As long as British law treats us as non-aliens and the CTA exists you've nothing to worry about.

Once you have a united Ireland, the reason for the CTA disappears, then all bets are off.

weemcd

VinLieger wrote: »

How will we ever be rid of the DUP or Nolan?

They have a declining vote share and I expect that to accelerate partly due to their handling of Brexit, party due to changing demographics and partly due to them making the wrong decision at every opportunity imaginable. They will become increasingly more bitter and dogmatic as they go, and it will still take a while, but they can't replace their fire and brimstone older vote with younger people.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

Once you have a united Ireland, the reason for the CTA disappears, then all bets are off.

I really didn't need to read that. I'd not previously joined those two particular dots.

breezy1985

mrunsure wrote: »

Do people here care about keeping free movement between Ireland and England? Is there any likelihood of that disappearing?

Can't really happen as long as the North exists also it is not really a political issue in the UK because most people seem to think we are British anyway.

An evil part of me would love to see it go though just to F with all the Irish brexiters I knew in London

VinLieger

weemcd wrote: »

They have a declining vote share and I expect that to accelerate partly due to their handling of Brexit, party due to changing demographics and partly due to them making the wrong decision at every opportunity imaginable. They will become increasingly more bitter and dogmatic as they go, and it will still take a while, but they can't replace their fire and brimstone older vote with younger people.

Id completely disagree, a potential or even occurring UI if anything will only strengthen their base and even if they are declining right now very possibly lead to a resurgence for them.

Also due to the extreme ghettoisation of some unionist areas and distinct lack of education among young people i honestly do not believe they will ever disappear and while may not command the large support they do now they will always unfortunately be a represented by a larger than acceptable uninformed, less educated and bigotted portion of NI citizens.

PeadarCo

VinLieger wrote: »

Listening now, hes just denying reality, its rather pathetic but tbh what else have we come to expect from the DUP

To be fair to the DUP they were caught out by the change in the Conservative Party. The Conservative Party is essentially an English nationalist party these days. The traditional voices that argued for the union are either gone or have minimal influence. Similar to the change in how the Conservative party approached private enterprise. It's gone from a pro business party to as Johnson put it F*** business party. So if you were being charitable you could argue that the DUP were caught completely flat footed by some major changes in the Tory party.

At the same time they should have known how delicate the balance was in NI and leaving the EU was going to upset it. However from the sounds of it at least some of ignored the warnings/believed Brexiters and are now paying the price. This is a somewhat charitable analysis of their decision to at least advocate for Brexit in 2016. Their decisions in more recent years ignored the reality in front of them time and time again.

10000maniacs

Hurrache wrote: »

I accidentally hit the AM button on my radio this morning which sent me to BBC Radio Ulster with Stephen Nolan so I left it on. Unionists are spitting blood and saying the DUP are finished in the north, and Nolan can't get any representative from the DUP to come on and back up their decision to push for a Brexit.

edit: Donaldson just came on now.

Is there a recording of this? Should be interesting.

breezy1985

PeadarCo wrote: »

To be fair to the DUP they were caught out by the change in the Conservative Party. The Conservative Party is essentially an English nationalist party these days. The traditional voices that argued for the union are either gone or have minimal influence. Similar to the change in how the Conservative party approached private enterprise. It's gone from a pro business party to as Johnson put it F*** business party. So if you were being charitable you could argue that the DUP were caught completely flat footed by some major changes in the Tory party.

At the same time they should have known how delicate the balance was in NI and leaving the EU was going to upset it. However from the sounds of it at least some of ignored the warnings/believed Brexiters and are now paying the price. This is a somewhat charitable analysis of their decision to at least advocate for Brexit in 2016. Their decisions in more recent years ignored the reality in front of them time and time again.

They got burnt by a Tory party whome it was obvious didn't give a toss about Ireland and never have all in an attempt to look ultra British. The Tory's only caring about England and at that only parts of it is nothing new.

As for Brexit I think they tried to back it to look good for the core vote and again bang that ultra British drum but we're sure remain would win and have only themselves to blame.

You would imagine at some stage Unionism will have to develop a moderate party and try take the protestant youth vote that is currently jumping ship to the alliance

joe40

Deleted User wrote: »

Once you have a united Ireland, the reason for the CTA disappears, then all bets are off.

I think a united Ireland is still a long way off. I can see closer integration, the sort of thing which started with the GFA but the North will remain part of the UK.

I just don't feel there is the appetite among both communities for the upheaval a UI would involve. The GFA worked because it was a fudge which suited both sides.

Of course all bets are off if there are serious economic downturn in the North or in the UK.

Nationalism and idealism are are well and good but i think hard economics are a bigger driver.

As for the DUP they are an absolute disaster for the North.

mrunsure

Deleted User wrote: »

Once you have a united Ireland, the reason for the CTA disappears, then all bets are off.

My question was really if people in Ireland actually like having the ability to move to England without restriction, and would be upset if it disappeared.

I'll put my cards on the table. I'm English and I'm interested in moving to Ireland in the future. I'd love to move now but I'm constrained by my partner's job so it wouldn't be for at least another 5 years.

10000maniacs

VinLieger wrote: »

How will we ever be rid of the DUP or Nolan?

I think Nolan attempts to be even and fair in most of his interviews. Although he does let his allegiances slip on occasion.

trellheim

UK finding out about heat-treated pallets being needed to go to EU from 1/1/20, and 100% SPS checks on live animal checks into NI from GB and thats just the two things out in front of the pack . Expect more in the near future.

ancapailldorcha

mrunsure wrote: »

My question was really if people in Ireland actually like having the ability to move to England without restriction, and would be upset if it disappeared.

I'll put my cards on the table. I'm English and I'm interested in moving to Ireland in the future. I'd love to move now but I'm constrained by my partner's job so it wouldn't be for at least another 5 years.

I certainly do! I'm from rural Ireland so the ability to escape to the UK is of paramount importance to me as I only speak English so that rules out the continent.

I'd like to think both sides would keep the CTA. The UK never bothered to touch it in nearly a century and I don't see any political gains for doing so as the English quite like the Irish and the Irish like living, working and holidaying in the UK.

Never connected those dots either. Pretty wild.

CelticRambler

mrunsure wrote: »

Do people here care about keeping free movement between Ireland and England? Is there any likelihood of that disappearing?

BonnieSituation wrote: »

As long as British law treats us as non-aliens and the CTA exists you've nothing to worry about.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I really didn't need to read that. I'd not previously joined those two particular dots.

The CTA is entirely in the gift of the British English parliament, and they have done their damnedest to get rid of it, most recently in 2008. Their last attempt was torpedoed by, quelle surprise, a very vocal minority party in one of the outlying regions who objected to the idea that they would have to show their British passports to a British border agent when crossing the sea to enter Britain. The matter was eventually resolved in 2011 ... subject to the caveat that the agreement "is not intended to create legally binding obligations, nor to create or confer any right, privilege or benefit on any person or party, private or public".

Given the even more recent history of broken promises and back-stabbing by the Ruling Party in England, I'd be pretty certain that that particular episode will be repeated soon enough, but with a different ending. Perhaps this time, the Tories will sweeten the deal by allowing non-GB residents to opt for orange passports rather than blue? :rolleyes:

trellheim

The CTA is key to the NI border. It will not go away. Even in a United Ireland in my view. I can't see us going into Schengen without the UK doing so and thats a "touchstone" never for them.

Piehead

Hurrache wrote: »

I accidentally hit the AM button on my radio this morning which sent me to BBC Radio Ulster with Stephen Nolan so I left it on. Unionists are spitting blood and saying the DUP are finished in the north, and Nolan can't get any representative from the DUP to come on and back up their decision to push for a Brexit.

edit: Donaldson just came on now.

Any link to a listen back

ancapailldorcha

trellheim wrote: »

The CTA is key to the NI border. It will not go away. Even in a United Ireland in my view. I can't see us going into Schengen without the UK doing so and thats a "touchstone" never for them.

Sure but in the event of a united Ireland then it loses much of its importance. I don't know if they'd keep it just for unionists is NI successfully unites with the Republic.

Hurrache

10000maniacs wrote: »

Is there a recording of this? Should be interesting.

I think they usually have it up on their site afterwards.

VinLieger

PeadarCo wrote: »

To be fair to the DUP they were caught out by the change in the Conservative Party. The Conservative Party is essentially an English nationalist party these days. The traditional voices that argued for the union are either gone or have minimal influence. Similar to the change in how the Conservative party approached private enterprise. It's gone from a pro business party to as Johnson put it F*** business party. So if you were being charitable you could argue that the DUP were caught completely flat footed by some major changes in the Tory party.

At the same time they should have known how delicate the balance was in NI and leaving the EU was going to upset it. However from the sounds of it at least some of ignored the warnings/believed Brexiters and are now paying the price. This is a somewhat charitable analysis of their decision to at least advocate for Brexit in 2016. Their decisions in more recent years ignored the reality in front of them time and time again.

They got caught out my arse, Unionists in NI have been betrayed by the tories time and time again but they never learn.

Here's what Edward Carson said in 1921 about dealing with the tories and its just as relevant today

What a fool I was! I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster, and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative Party into Power

CelticRambler

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

the ability to escape to the UK is of paramount importance to me as I only speak English so that rules out the continent.

Doesn't stop tens of thousands of mono-lingual English people coming over here (to France), buying up our derelict houses, emptying the shops of McVities Digestives, filling our schools with their offspring, getting themselves elected to the local council ... [note: some of the information contained in this post may now be obsolete] :rolleyes:

I think the CTA has helped maintain Ireland's dependence on GB for longer than was necessarily good for the country. Sure, I benefited from the same escape route when my career ambitions couldn't be immediately fulfilled in Dublin; but some thirty years later, those ambitions still haven't been fulfilled in the way I intended and now never will. Somewhat ironcially, out of all the contracts I've looked at in the last three years, the one that's got me most excited came up yesterday ... for a job in the Congo (on the back of my experience of living and working in France). The CTA didn't get me to this point, but without EU Freedom of Movement, I wouldn't even have seen the ad, let alone be appropriately qualified for the role.

ancapailldorcha

VinLieger wrote: »

They got caught out my arse, Unionists in NI have been betrayed by the tories time and time again but they never learn.

Here's what Edward Carson said in 1921 about dealing with the tories and its just as relevant today

They seem to have a very firm grasp of this in my experience. Even my own father who'd seethe with rage upon seeing "that Carmine" knows full well that the British care not one whit for NI.