Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Strazdas

Snickers Man wrote: »

Nail on the head!

There are many different reasons for people voting for Brexit. I am sure the motivations of people in "Red Wall" constituencies in the North of England are very different to those from the affluent south whose poster boys are the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg, Peter Bone, Bill Cash and Boris.

But the single most pervasive motivation for Brexit, cutting across all classes in Britain, is seething resentment at the fanciful notion they have deluded themselves with for 75 years that "we won the war" has to be contrasted with the self-evident truth that Germany won the peace.

Wer hat dem Frieden gewonnen, Basil?

Fintan O'Toole's book on Brexit covers all of the above in detail. A country which supposedly "won" the war having to look on with seething resentment as the losing European nations surge ahead while their own empire fell apart.

His central thesis is that WW2 and the loss of the empire is a huge factor in the Brexiteer mindset. He points out that German reunification for example was not welcomed by them.

Lumen

peter kern wrote: »

what most angry people on this thread forget there is no winner in this .
pretty much everybody is going to lose ,some more some less almost everybody is losing something , freedom of movement money,world influence.

There are things to be gained though, amongst the wreckage. I would like to see an Ireland better integrated economically and culturally with the rest of the EU, but this has been prevented by the closeness of our economic and cultural links to the UK which always seemed easier.

I also want the English poison out of EU institutions.

cml387

peter kern wrote: »

what most angry people on this thread forget there is no winner in this .
pretty much everybody is going to lose ,some more some less almost everybody is losing something , freedom of movement money,world influence.

Exactly. Some people on this thread seem to believe (hope?) that Britain will disappear furiously beneath the waves on Jan 1 in a foaming mess of recrinination and bluster.

The EU no - deal plans are to ensure continuity in the short term for the benefit of the EU, not Britain.

ambro25

peter kern wrote: »

what most angry people on this thread forget there is no winner in this .
pretty much everybody is going to lose ,some more some less almost everybody is losing something , freedom of movement money,world influence.

Whilst I agree with you that there can be no 'winners' out of Brexit, note that it is quasi-exclusively the UK which losing these.

I really don't mean this in a "ner-ner-nerner" one-upmanship way, but to cast these comparative losses in their proper context at the correct scale.

I keep in mind for instance the travel ban on Brits, reclassified as 3rd country nationals, to anywhere in the EU from 1st January under the Covid rules, until the UK meets EU healthcare/track-and-tracing thresholds of probity. [Edit: relative to EU and EEA destinations-] they'll be imprisoned on their island (save for essential travel reason under the rules). Not the Irish (e.g.)

ancapailldorcha

ambro25 wrote: »

Not the Irish (e.g.)

Can the Irish travel between the UK and the EU as well as between the UK and the Republic?

ElJeffe

trellheim wrote: »

So three choices

1) Deal
2) No-Deal
3) Can-Kick

No-one wants (2), (1) is looking impossible so why not delay and forestall

There are plenty that want option 2.

3 is never going to happen. The UK or the EU will not let it.

Snickers Man

storker wrote: »

To be fair, they did carry out a crucial role, and at least they weren't cuddling up to the Nazis and helping with the carve-up of Poland like some we could mention.

An important but minor role. That's fair.
Though if you say it to a British person in general, and a Brexiteer in particular, you will cause outrage.

And if you're referring to the Soviet Union and its treatment of Poland, I should just point out that acknowledging the huge effort the Soviets made in defeating the Nazis doesn't in any way condone what they did to the people in the way. Like the Poles, or the Baltic peoples, or Ukrainians, or the Hungarians, Czechs etc etc

Here's another curiosity: ask a British (or even American person) who liberated Auschwitz? They will probably say "The Allies"
Ask them who murdered 20,000 Polish prisoners of war in Katyn? They will say "The Soviet Union" (or just "The Russians")

Transpose those two answers. You're still correct but it puts a different slant on things for sure.

ambro25

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Can the Irish travel between the UK and the EU as well as between the UK and the Republic?

Possibly, since Ireland/the DFA has adopted the EU's traffic lights approach which only allows travel between 'green' regions and 'open' countries.

Sierra Oscar

ElJeffe wrote: »

There are plenty that want option 2.

3 is never going to happen. The UK or the EU will not let it.

The EU Commission has already set out their proposal to kick the can down the road a further 6 months. If it’s to be a total no deal chaos type scenario then it will be solely on the UK Government. I’m not sure they have the courage to press that button considering the impact it will have on businesses and ordinary people in terms or price increases and product shortages.

It looks like these negotiations could almost become perpetual in nature.

Snickers Man

Strazdas wrote: »

Fintan O'Toole's book on Brexit covers all of the above in detail. A country which supposedly "won" the war having to look on with seething resentment as the losing European nations surge ahead while their own empire fell apart.

His central thesis is that WW2 and the loss of the empire is a huge factor in the Brexiteer mindset. He points out that German reunification for example was not welcomed by them.

I'm reading it at the moment. Just started mind. He's particularly good on the issue of self-pity and its importance on the current British mindset.

AutoTuning

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Can the Irish travel between the UK and the EU as well as between the UK and the Republic?

Irish citizens actually are the only group for whom absolutely nothing changes. UK citizens lose rights on the continent and continental EU & EEA citizens lose rights in the UK.

Irish citizens obviously continue to be EU citizens as we've nothing to do with Brexit, but we also retain treatment as being equivalent to British citizens in UK law and British citizens retain similar rights here.

So for all intents and purposes for people from Ireland or the UK, for movement, working rights and voting rights and so on in the UK or Ireland, nothing changes. Also pensions and healthcare are being dealt with using bilateral agreements

If you are for example, a French, German, Spanish, Polish etc etc citizen resident in Ireland, those rights don't apply. So it could be problematic if, for example, you're a non Irish EU citizen working for a company that has cross border business locations etc etc. Whatever arrangements the UK negotiates with the EU or the country of your citizenship would apply. It could be an en bloc agreement with the entire EU, or it might be a series of 26 bilateral agreements with different rights. Cyprus and possibly Malta, as far as I am aware, will also retain access to the UK due to legacy arrangements.

The significant issues for us are all to do with trade and customs, not freedom of moment.

ancapailldorcha

AutoTuning wrote: »

Irish citizens actually are the only group for whom absolutely nothing changes. UK citizens lose rights on the continent and continental EU & EEA citizens lose rights in the UK.

Irish citizens obviously continue to be EU citizens as we've nothing to do with Brexit, but we also retain treatment as being equivalent to British citizens in UK law and British citizens retain similar rights here.

So for all intents and purposes for people from Ireland or the UK, for movement, working rights and voting rights and so on in the UK or Ireland, nothing changes. Also pensions and healthcare are being dealt with using bilateral agreements.

The significant issues for us are all to do with trade and customs, not freedom of moment.

Thanks.

As long as flights continue as normal once the pandemic becomes less of an issue. I looked at the citizenship section on gov.uk and it's even less helpful than I expected with no info about Irish citizens resident here at all.

breezy1985

storker wrote: »

You have to love how freely they use the word "We", when hardly anyone who helped do the winning is still alive...

That's the state of the UK mindset. Puffing out its chest thinking it's marvellous based on the achievements of dead men. What a bunch of losers.

But if you point out that Britain is guilty of serious crimes due to colonialism you get told it's all in the past and nothing to do with today's generations

AutoTuning

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Thanks.

As long as flights continue as normal once the pandemic becomes less of an issue. I looked at the citizenship section on gov.uk and it's even less helpful than I expected with no info about Irish citizens resident here at all.

Basically under British law Irish citizens are not considered as quite foreign and the same applies to British citizens in Ireland. It's an odd arrangement, but in practice you're treated as if you're a UK citizen there or an Irish citizens here, including a right to vote in national elections. Our rights in each others countries predate the EU and the depth of those rights also excede EU freedom of movement rights.

Flights within the Common Travel Area, at least in terms of people crossing borders, aren't going to change for UK or Irish citizens. However, it will mean a difference in treatment of other EU nationals. So while you might breeze through as normal, your wife or husband on say a Swedish passport might not.

My suspicion is that they'll have a 90 day visa waiver in both directions anyway. I can't realistically see the UK applying anything bizzare to leisure and business travel for anyone in the EU. It's more likely to see the controls being applied through work permits & so on and I would suspect for UK citizens heading to the continent it would be similar. They'll likely be asked to declare the purpose of their visit, similar to crossing borders elsewhere in the world.

If the UK started demanding border visas for EU nationals it’d be a total outlier and in the same and in the same category as China.

peter kern

Lumen wrote: »

There are things to be gained though, amongst the wreckage. I would like to see an Ireland better integrated economically and culturally with the rest of the EU, but this has been prevented by the closeness of our economic and cultural links to the UK which always seemed easier.

I also want the English poison out of EU institutions.

it wasnt always poison , the uk was a good counterbalance against frances tendency too overcomplicate things too much.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-02-11/why-the-germans-are-deeply-unhappy-about-brexit

so again this is not really a win win situation that the brits are leaving

CelticRambler

AutoTuning wrote: »

If the UK started demanding border visas for EU nationals it’d be a total outlier and in the same and in the same category as China.

Not so much of an outlier as you might think, because it's not simply a question of not asking EU nationals for their visa/visa exemption at the point of entry, but actually making a positive, public declaration - in writing - that EU passport holders are entitled to visa-free entry to the territory of the United Kingdom of Great Britain (+/- Northern Ireland). Border officials are required - by law - to apply the default controls on inbound travellers unless it is clearly and explicitly stated in their Book of Rules that the person seeking entry is allowed in under a more relaxed protocol.

The one thing we know about the current administration is that they are completely hopeless at making timely, positive, written declarations - hence the repeated reference to a chaotic Brexit happening "by accident". There will come a day and an hour in the very, very near future, where there is simply not enough time for the civil servants concerned to literally type out the necessary text, send it to the relevant parliamentary group and/or HoC, have it debated - even notionally - approved and a formal notice distributed to the people responsible for manning the immigration desks.

RobMc59

storker wrote: »

You have to love how freely they use the word "We", when hardly anyone who helped do the winning is still alive...

That's the state of the UK mindset. Puffing out its chest thinking it's marvellous based on the achievements of dead men. What a bunch of losers.

That's an extremely offensive post to a British person-would you say that about Irish people?

listermint

peter kern wrote: »

what most angry people on this thread forget there is no winner in this .
pretty much everybody is going to lose ,some more some less almost everybody is losing something , freedom of movement money,world influence.

cml387 wrote: »

Exactly. Some people on this thread seem to believe (hope?) that Britain will disappear furiously beneath the waves on Jan 1 in a foaming mess of recrinination and bluster.

The EU no - deal plans are to ensure continuity in the short term for the benefit of the EU, not Britain.

Who, Who are these angry people you picked up on that want to see britain disappear beneath the waves ?

listermint

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's an extremely offensive post to a British person-would you say that about Irish people?

Anyone that says 'we' and thinks there are marvelous for the sacrifices of their forefathers is a muppet tbf.

Why would you be offended for people with that mentality. They were not there, they did nothing. They should not think they are marvelous

storker

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's an extremely offensive post to a British person-would you say that about Irish people?

Yes. And I have.

Edit: The first part yes, not the second part, but if Irish people were thinking that they were somehow better than everyone else in Europe on the back of something someone else had done, and generally acting like the Brexiteers are acting now, then yes the second part would apply too.

fly_agaric

I kind of expect (could be wrong) the UK will start making "waves" over EU vessels fishing in their waters almost from day 1.

It is perfect propaganda for a nationalist/populist govt. like current UK one.

Can see it clearly now. Images of the brave Royal Navy driving the boats of the dirty forrins out, or perhaps boarding boats and detaining shifty Irish/French/Spanish fishermen will make the "Brexity" types (many of whom seem to be in government) squeal with excitement!

The Raging Bile Duct

I'm not sure people are angry... exasperated maybe?

peter kern

ambro25 wrote: »

Whilst I agree with you that there can be no 'winners' out of Brexit, note that it is quasi-exclusively the UK which losing these.

I really don't mean this in a "ner-ner-nerner" one-upmanship way, but to cast these comparative losses in their proper context at the correct scale.

I keep in mind for instance the travel ban on Brits, reclassified as 3rd country nationals, to anywhere in the EU from 1st January under the Covid rules, until the UK meets EU healthcare/track-and-tracing thresholds of probity. [Edit: relative to EU and EEA destinations-] they'll be imprisoned on their island (save for essential travel reason under the rules). Not the Irish (e.g.)

well there was 3 milion europeans livng in the uk usualy something like 2-3 years , so lets say over the next 20 years this is going to impact 20 milion europeans not being able to work in the uk as easily to improve their english and earn money they then can invest into their country.
i guess far less studends will study abroad now as uk universitys were also very popular with european students.
so no i dont think this is just one way. of course it will hurt uk more but still its not an insignificant disadvantage for europeans. which hurts by far more than an 8 euro visa .

ambro25

peter kern wrote: »

well there was 3 milion europeans livng in the uk usualy something like 2-3 years , so lets say over the next 20 years this is going to impact 20 milion europeans not being able to work in the uk as easily to improve their english and earn money they then can invest into their country.
i guess far less studends will study abroad now as uk universitys were also very popular with european students.
so no i dont think this is just one way. of course it will hurt uk more but still its not an insignificant disadvantage for europeans. which hurts by far more than an 8 euro visa .

The balancing of disadvantages between what the UK loses, and what the EU loses, is what "quasi" referred to, in "quasi-exclusively", in my earlier post.

For the rest of it, I'm wholly uninterested in mitigating the UK's notional and/or actual losses in discussion. They voted for these losses in full cognisance, by design or by accident or both they're still going through with the act causing them 4 years on, so they can wear them, and who are we to try and stop them.

The rest of the EU already got over it a long time back: looking at UK stats since 2016, EU students already started shopping elsewhere for further education, likewise EU highly-skilled /skilled/unskilled workers. Brexit and the hostile environment have done their job well, the tanking £ has done the rest: the message got through loud and clear in the EU27.

Don't fall into the stereotype trap of thinking that non-British (or non-Irish) simply must visit the UK to improve their English skills, either. This is the 2020s with Interweb-everywhere, not the 1990s.

No hate for Brits or desire to see the UK burn to cinders, here. Just a (by now-) dispassionate look at the reality of their situation, however harsh and/or unpalatable it may be to some, framed by a strong sense of self-responbility under which one (person/company/country) is always responsible for the consequences of their own, freely-made choices, no matter how dire.

VinLieger

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's an extremely offensive post to a British person-would you say that about Irish people?

Why is it offensive? Its true, virtually nobody who had any active part in the blitz is alive and also many people actually didn't survive it. Yet it was trotted out numerous times in the past 4 years and still is when No Deal is discussed.

If anything the use of the argument is offensive to those who took part in the blitz unwillingly and even more so to the memory of those that died when its being used by people who haven't a clue of the realities of that time and situation and are entering into No deal willingly and many even with excited gusto.

ancapailldorcha

peter kern wrote: »

well there was 3 milion europeans livng in the uk usualy something like 2-3 years , so lets say over the next 20 years this is going to impact 20 milion europeans not being able to work in the uk as easily to improve their english and earn money they then can invest into their country.
i guess far less studends will study abroad now as uk universitys were also very popular with european students.
so no i dont think this is just one way. of course it will hurt uk more but still its not an insignificant disadvantage for europeans. which hurts by far more than an 8 euro visa .

While it's certainly true that British Universities enjoy a good reputation and that many are indeed excellent they're going to take a serious hit once EU citizens have to start paying non-EU fees which will devastate them. Immigration from Eastern Europe has been steadily dropping as well.

There's a hit to the EU, sure but the EU has always known this and acted to prepare.

Gerry T

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's an extremely offensive post to a British person-would you say that about Irish people?

The UK do go on about how they won the war. It's not disrespectful to let them know some facts. UK and France declared war on Germany after they invaded Poland. As Germany were winning the French/Belgian and UK troops headed for Dunkirk, but the French 1st army of 40,000 men stayed at Lille to stop/delay the 160,000 Germans, which they did for 4 days allowing the UK army to dig in and setup defences at Dunkirk and finally get home. But you do hear people in the UK referring to the french as surrender monkeys, and how the UK went and saved the French--they should be more grateful. Maybe they forgot about Lille.

Russia took out 2m of the 3.2m German Army, that crippled the Germans and allowed allied forces to finish the job on the western front led by USA and not UK. If anything it was the Russians that won WW2.

They also moan about the hand of god robbing them of a second world cup in '86. But forget the UK goal in '66 v Germany to win the ball never crossed the line, Hurst the "scorer" himself admitted it. So cheating for the UK is fair game but then 40 yrs on and they still bang on about the hand of God.

It's also why the UK has ex-pats but every other country has scrounging emigrants/immigrants.

I'll stop, but perspective has been the nail in the coffin for Brexit, we call it UK exceptionalism and the call it EU bullying. Someone needs a new pair of glasses, specsavers is British !!

ancapailldorcha

Mod: We really don't need to revisit the Second World War again here so let's not please.

20silkcut

VinLieger wrote: »

Why is it offensive? Its true, virtually nobody who had any active part in the blitz is alive and also many people actually didn't survive it. Yet it was trotted out numerous times in the past 4 years and still is when No Deal is discussed.

If anything the use of the argument is offensive to those who took part in the blitz unwillingly and even more so to the memory of those that died when its being used by people who haven't a clue of the realities of that time and situation and are entering into No deal willingly and many even with excited gusto.

And most of the generation who actually fought in world war 2 would probably have taken part in the 1975 referendum. So clearly that generation of Brits had a more realistic view of Britain’s standing in the world and having experienced the horrors of war the prevention of which was the raison detre of the EEC.

Strazdas

20silkcut wrote: »

And most of the generation who actually fought in world war 2 would probably have taken part in the 1975 referendum. So clearly that generation of Brits had a more realistic view of Britain’s standing in the world and having experienced the horrors of war the prevention of which was the raisin detre of the EEC.

And interestingly, the most prominent person on the Leave side in 1975 was Enoch Powell, a known racist and probable fascist.