Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

serfboard

This is brilliant - VDL schools Johnson in mask ettiquette. It's no wonder he got infected, and also had to self-isolate ...

Zubeneschamali

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The EU Commission has already set out their proposal to kick the can down the road a further 6 months.

No, they have not.

With those 6 month measures in place, tariffs, paperwork and customs inspections will apply from Jan 1st, meaning the UK ports will collapse and Kent will be a lorry park.

Shelves will empty. All JIT manufacturing will stop, factories will close "temporarily", people will be laid off.

Medecines will have to be flown in on the flights the EU has kindly allowed to continue, and rationing will be needed.

It will be chaos WITH those measures in place, but at least EU citizens will be able to catch flights out of there.

Shelga

listermint wrote: »

Anyone that says 'we' and thinks there are marvelous for the sacrifices of their forefathers is a muppet tbf.

Why would you be offended for people with that mentality. They were not there, they did nothing. They should not think they are marvelous

Agreed. Exact same thing still going on a couple of days ago, when Matt Hancock was on TV to talk about the coronavirus vaccine, and finished his tear-soaked performance (I couldn't bear to watch it, seeing tweets about it was enough) with "It makes you proud to be British."

How does it make you proud to be British, Matt? The UK had basically nothing to do with the Pfizer vaccine, they just approved it first. It's this desperation to attach patriotism to literally anything these days, as well as Tories accusing anyone questioning their vile antics of "not being patriotic" (latest example is Penny Mordaunt in the HoC) that is illogical and highly irritating.

It's more than irritating though, it's deeply worrying. I'm not saying anything new here, but it's not patriotism, it's blind, stupid, ugly nationalism, where no questions or dissent is tolerated.

This is an interesting article on George Orwell's "Notes on Nationalism" essay- https://lithub.com/what-george-orwell-wrote-about-the-dangers-of-nationalism/.

""By “nationalism” I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled “good” or “bad.” But secondly—and this is much more important—I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognizing no other duty than that of advancing its interests."

Elsewhere he describes nationalism more simply as “the lunatic modern habit of identifying oneself with large power units and seeing everything in terms of competitive prestige.”"

Sam Russell

Shelga wrote: »

Agreed. Exact same thing still going on a couple of days ago, when Matt Hancock was on TV to talk about the coronavirus vaccine, and finished his tear-soaked performance (I couldn't bear to watch it, seeing tweets about it was enough) with "It makes you proud to be British."

How does it make you proud to be British, Matt? The UK had basically nothing to do with the Pfizer vaccine, they just approved it first. It's this desperation to attach patriotism to literally anything these days, as well as Tories accusing anyone questioning their vile antics of "not being patriotic" (latest example is Penny Mordaunt in the HoC) that is illogical and highly irritating.

Well, the UK were the first to approve the Pfizer vaccine, and on the very first day of its deployment, two health workers nearly died from anaphylactic shock from the vaccine, that had never been tested with people who suffered from allergies.

That smacks of insufficient testing in my book and borders on reckless action by the body that approved it. Thankfully they did not die. At the very least, it should have been issued initially only to be used on healthy people, between 25 years and 60 years, not ninety year old patients, or health workers who suffer from allergies. Disgraceful, and all just to be first - actually the Chinese and Russians are already injecting vaccines.

I am sure such results makes Matt Hancock feel really proud.

Snickers Man

Strazdas wrote: »

And interestingly, the most prominent person on the Leave side in 1975 was Enoch Powell, a known racist and probable fascist.

The discussion on BBC between Powell, and his erstwhile colleagues in the Conservative party Jim Prior and Willie Whitelaw, anchored by the legendary Robin Day, on the night those results were coming in is most interesting with hindsight.

Points to note:

1) Powell took the overwhelming defeat of his point of view as merely a "provisional result" and vowed to fight on in parliament, pointing out that IT had the final say in the British system, not the populace by way of a referendum.

2) He paid tribute to the candour of Yes supporters (the term for Remainers in that referendum) such as Edward Heath who pointed out that joining the EEC/EU would inevitably mean some diminution of sovereignty. (In other words, there was no "thin edge of the wedge" argument which enticed Britain into a trade association but tried to keep them in something stronger)

3) The Conservatives were, at the time, the more pro-European party. Labour were the ones with a vociferous Eurosceptic wing. At the time.

Hindsight is a great thing. Here's the full clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6vi7y0dzfs

Puguchung

Unraveling the Rats Nest on Facebook with brilliant analysis and writing as usual:

“December 10th.

"Veni, vidi, vici" wrote Julius Caesar, referring to a swift and sudden victory. "I came, I saw, I conquered." Doubtless Boris would have liked to be able to say the same, but, alas, it doesn't look as if he can.

Despite Johnson's reputation, it wasn't quite a case, one hopes, of "veni, vermini, vomui" as the late, great Terry Pratchett glossed Caesar's celebrated dictum. "I came, I got ratted, I threw up" - although no doubt Johnson gagged a little on his fish dinner. The participants in this unequal symposium dined on pumpkin soup with scallops (always a cause of contention, since the UK's fishermen are allowed to plunder the scallop beds a whole month before the French) and turbot, a fish which certainly doesn't deserve to be immortalised in the media-coined phrase "turbot-charged" when the talks appear to have been anything but.

They were, however, "lively and interesting" talks, according to an Ursula von der Leyen, who was visibly resigned to Boris's blunderings from the moment after the photo-op (before which she reminded him to "keep distance") to the moment after it when she indicated that he should put his mask straight back on again, and, dog-whistling to the anti-mask crew, he replied with excruciatingly patronising gallantry "Put it back on immediately? You run a tight ship here, Ursula, and quite right too.”

He looked outclassed, and so did Frost, as they faced the cameras, Frost in a too-small jacket and a too-short tie, like an overgrown schoolboy up in front of the headmaster, and Johnson, his partner in juvenile delinquency - or should that be his juvenile partner in delinquency - playing off his usual clearance-sale Trump airs. Von der Leyen and Barnier looked like statesmen. (Or women, obviously, in her case.) Our team looked shamed, shoddy and shabby by contrast, as limp and tangled as the UK flag caught in its own hoist - and that surely wasn't an accident: it remained resolutely drooping, while the EU's banners fluttered proudly in the breeze. It could almost have been symbolic.

...”

ceegee

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, the UK were the first to approve the Pfizer vaccine, and on the very first day of its deployment, two health workers nearly died from anaphylactic shock from the vaccine, that had never been tested with people who suffered from allergies.

That smacks of insufficient testing in my book and borders on reckless action by the body that approved it. Thankfully they did not die. At the very least, it should have been issued initially only to be used on healthy people, between 25 years and 60 years, not ninety year old patients, or health workers who suffer from allergies. Disgraceful, and all just to be first - actually the Chinese and Russians are already injecting vaccines.

I am sure such results makes Matt Hancock feel really proud.

Have you a source for them almost dying from anaphylactic shock?

An Ciarraioch

ceegee wrote: »

Have you a source for them almost dying from anaphylactic shock?

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/1209/1183310-coronavirus-vaccine/

TBF, given they'd to carry EpiPens with them at all times, it suggests they'd have reacted the same way if given an ordinary flu vaccine.

Podge_irl

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, the UK were the first to approve the Pfizer vaccine, and on the very first day of its deployment, two health workers nearly died from anaphylactic shock from the vaccine, that had never been tested with people who suffered from allergies.

That smacks of insufficient testing in my book and borders on reckless action by the body that approved it. Thankfully they did not die. At the very least, it should have been issued initially only to be used on healthy people, between 25 years and 60 years, not ninety year old patients, or health workers who suffer from allergies. Disgraceful, and all just to be first - actually the Chinese and Russians are already injecting vaccines.

I am sure such results makes Matt Hancock feel really proud.

None of the other medicine agencies are doing any extra testing, they are simply taking longer to analyse the information already provided. I don't think allergic reactions would be completely unexpected though it would appear that other agencies are at least taking note of this for their own rollouts which is good.

Rolling it out to healthy 25-60 year olds would be an utter waste of time and resources, they need it the least. The rush to approve it for the headlines, and the discourse they tried to promote afterwards was utterly pathetic - but this is not something you can realistically beat them over.

Brussels Sprout

So if it is going to be No Deal, how long will it be before the Tories throw Johnson under the bus?

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's an extremely offensive post to a British person-would you say that about Irish people?

While I agree that storkers' choice of words was unnecessarily provocative, the underlying sentiment is accurate, and finds an echo in the insults emitted by many voices in Britain towards the current population of Germany, frequently tarring them with the Nazi brush despite that movement having been extinguished in the middle of the last century.

This goes to the heart of almost all discussions with so many British people on so many topics. Right now, just about every reason given to justify Brexit is being poo-pooed by Brexiters when Scotland asks for the same freedom; not only that, but all the reasons given by Brexiters as to why Scotland should stay part of the UK are exactly the same as those put forward by Remainers for staying in the EU.

While Britain was proudly fighting the "Great War" in 1916, supposedly in defence of freedom and national sovereignty, the same Britain was fighting in Ireland in 1916 to stop us from having freedom and national sovereignty. Like the World Cup examples cited above, handling this peculiarly British schizophrenia gets tiresome after a while.

In most situations, up to now, you could just say "Ah, FFS ... " and walk off; but the combination of Brexit's international implications, 24-hour news channels and too-easy access to social media means it's very difficult to avoid the exaggerated and/or history-revisionist claims. This, more than anything else, is why even the milder anglophiles among us are getting a bit ratty.

Strazdas

ceegee wrote: »

Have you a source for them almost dying from anaphylactic shock?

Don't know about them 'nearly dying' but apparently they were indeed epipen carriers.

storker

CelticRambler wrote: »

While I agree that storkers' choice of words was unnecessarily provocative, the underlying sentiment is accurate, and finds an echo in the insults emitted by many voices in Britain towards the current population of Germany, frequently tarring them with the Nazi brush despite that movement having been extinguished in the middle of the last century.

This goes to the heart of almost all discussions with so many British people on so many topics. Right now, just about every reason given to justify Brexit is being poo-pooed by Brexiters when Scotland asks for the same freedom; not only that, but all the reasons given by Brexiters as to why Scotland should stay part of the UK are exactly the same as those put forward by Remainers for staying in the EU.

While Britain was proudly fighting the "Great War" in 1916, supposedly in defence of freedom and national sovereignty, the same Britain was fighting in Ireland in 1916 to stop us from having freedom and national sovereignty. Like the World Cup examples cited above, handling this peculiarly British schizophrenia gets tiresome after a while.

In most situations, up to now, you could just say "Ah, FFS ... " and walk off; but the combination of Brexit's international implications, 24-hour news channels and too-easy access to social media means it's very difficult to avoid the exaggerated and/or history-revisionist claims. This, more than anything else, is why even the milder anglophiles among us are getting a bit ratty.

...and I probably would qualify as a mind anglophile, having been born there and lived some of my adult life there, and being someone who doesn't join in with knee-jerk Brit-bashing and will even defend them when I feel it's warranted. But Brexiteers...:rolleyes:...it's not hard to imagine Gandhi losing patience with them and telling them to Foxtrot Oscar.

Sam Russell

Podge_irl wrote: »

None of the other medicine agencies are doing any extra testing, they are simply taking longer to analyse the information already provided. I don't think allergic reactions would be completely unexpected though it would appear that other agencies are at least taking note of this for their own rollouts which is good.

Rolling it out to healthy 25-60 year olds would be an utter waste of time and resources, they need it the least. The rush to approve it for the headlines, and the discourse they tried to promote afterwards was utterly pathetic - but this is not something you can realistically beat them over.

My point is that a 'fully tested vaccine' is first given to a ninety year old woman - when the testing was only given to much younger healthy volunteers. Then it was given to two health service workers with a known allergy reaction. ON THE FIRST DAY.

Now I would have thought it would be wise to gradually expand on those characteristics of the volunteers, and monitor the reactions. There was insufficient testing.

But in the rush to be 'first', of course all this was ignored.

I remember hearing that one of the astronauts, destined for the moon, said 'There are three possible outcomes - we wont get to the moon, we will get there but cannot get back, or we will get back OK - all are equally likely!' Now to go on those odds is the choice of a hero - but it was his choice fully informed. Not so for those guinea pigs that got the first few doses.

Now having said that, I will be in the queue to get vaccinated - I will take my chances.

Hurrache

Unfortunate for Sky, and the British public I suppose, with Kay Burley being suspended from Sky News for 6 months given what's happening. In fairness to her she's been pretty good grilling politicians every morning.

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

My point is that a 'fully tested vaccine' is first given to a ninety year old woman - when the testing was only given to much younger healthy volunteers.

The "much younger" bit here is simply not true. The "healthy" bit is questionable too - you couldn't be severely ill but basic underlying conditions were fine.

41% of participants in the Pfizer trial were over 56, and up to 85.

A LOT of work was done on the three main vaccines trials to ensure age, gender and race coverage.

Seth Brundle

Good news for the people of NI in terms of food standards...

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1337087658435211267

54and56

storker wrote: »

...and I probably would qualify as a mind anglophile, having been born there and lived some of my adult life there, and being someone who doesn't join in with knee-jerk Brit-bashing and will even defend them when I feel it's warranted. But Brexiteers...:rolleyes:...it's not hard to imagine Gandhi losing patience with them and telling them to Foxtrot Oscar.

I too am a natural Anglophile having a particular affinity for London (who accommodated me as I bolted Ireland in the 1980's looking for some form of employment) and for English country pubs and even their warm ale before "IPA" (thankfully) became trendy here.

During my 7 year stay in London I spent several years working in a posh retail store full of Sloane Ranger types. I was the sole Paddy and worked in Accounts but one of the people from the shop floor was a very young Thomas Rees Mogg (yes Jacob's brother) who I got to know and would sometimes go for drinks with or to staff parties with in flats off the Kings Road etc. It was a mad time in my own young life but what struck me was that the persona of what I perceived as British upper class snobbishness was often not borne out by the mundane reality of the their lives. Some were destined for or were ex army and had been quite institutionalised in that stiff upper lip flag waving Rule Britannia manner but most were just happy in the knowledge that they had been fortunate enough to be born into privilege and wealth (although not all were wealthy) and were quite international in outlook including Thomas.

I left the UK in the early 90's and whilst I could sense an increasing amount of anti EU sentiment I have watched in horror as so many in the UK have lurched to the right and fallen for the panacea peddled by Farage and the ERG etc.

The fact one family could have an easy going son in Thomas and a rabid nationalistic and quite sneering Brexiteer (which I guess their sister Annunziata also qualifies as) amazes me.

Wish I'd kept in contact with some of those people (pre widespread mobile phone and even email) as I'm sure it would provide a rich insight into how they view Brexit.

The only person I stayed in touch with from the time was the IT manager of the store who subsequently bought properties in and spends half his time in Spain and half in London primarily living off the property rentals. In an email exchange with him earlier this year he was moaning about how hard it was going to be for him to travel with visa requirements, how expensive it was getting as his £ sterling pension wasn't buying as much as it used to and how the Spanish were taking away his free healthcare plus the value of his properties were likely to drop as demand from Brits would dry up and there'd be a glut of people trying to sell up.

All of this from a guy who voted for Brexit!! I honestly resisted the temptation to call him out but it was a struggle :P

Mr.Nice Guy

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Good news for the people of NI in terms of food standards...

I'm sure the DUP will be thrilled at this news. The glee with which they shafted May's various attempts to placate them has really come back to bite them on the backside.

I was listening to the Nolan Show and Talkback yesterday and there were plenty of unionists critical of the DUP. One of them in particular stood out, claiming, 'I won the vote and I'm being kept inside the EU.' I heard plenty of talk about never voting for them again, but I've heard that before so I don't trust it. I suspect a scapegoat will be found to be the focus of the blame: the Irish government, Sinn Fein, SDLP, Alliance, Brussels, anyone they can think of.

Looks like Boris is about to throw in the towel!

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55266678
Boris Johnson says there is a "strong possibility" the UK will fail to strike a post-Brexit trade agreement with the EU.

The prime minister said "now is the time" for businesses and the public to prepare for that outcome, although negotiators would continue talks.

He added that negotiations were "not yet there at all".

trellheim

Several EU side are saying the same. Lets see what comes out of EUCO but looking very like no deal

deathbomber

trellheim wrote: »

Several EU side are saying the same. Lets see what comes out of EUCO but looking very like no deal

All theatre, a deal will be done. Boris will be out on his ear within 6 months if there is a no deal

10000maniacs

Deleted User wrote: »

Looks like Boris is about to throw in the towel!

At least we know that the Australian style deal is oven ready.
Car manufacturers will be queueing up to announce their exit from the UK economy now.

Shelga

Is his tweet from 10 minutes ago, where he says "Australian solution" about 10 times, just another bluff, or what. I don't think so, but it's impossible to know what the man really thinks or what way he's leaning. Although I tend to think it's 80%+ likely that it's no deal now.

trellheim

Morgan Stanley pulling 120 billion from London to Frankfurt


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-10/morgan-stanley-to-shift-about-120-billion-of-assets-to-germany

10000maniacs

Shelga wrote: »

Is his tweet from 10 minutes ago, where he says "Australian solution" about 10 times, just another bluff, or what. I don't think so, but it's impossible to know what the man really thinks or what way he's leaning. Although I tend to think it's 80%+ likely that it's no deal now.

I think his body language last night with Ursula von der Leyen last night was one of a subservient being ordered around. Not the stature and poise of a leader.
When asked to put on the mask by von der Leyen, "Ok, you run a tight ship around here..... and rightly so I may add."
I can see how the EU are reluctant to do business with Johnson. Everything is a joke or quip to him.

Seth Brundle

deathbomber wrote: »

All theatre, a deal will be done. Boris will be out on his ear within 6 months if there is a no deal

The belief is that Boris was always going to leave in or around January 2021.
He'll let someone else clear up his mess.

Igotadose

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Is this going to put a dent in UK gdp? I assume these financial assets would be counted as positive for Germany and negative for UK investment flows when it comes to gdp calculations, sort of how Ireland had a 25% bump before due to companies shuffling assets about. Asking for an economist friend

Includes 200 staff, too. So, some slight impact to GDP from that. Assets sitting in Frankfurt's a bit of a game - they're just entries in a computer somewhere, maybe some paper in a vault. It's part of an overall move MS was making anyway.

So, more business transacted by people in Germany, fewer in London.

I'm not following the numbers in the Bloomberg article, though. I think they mean millions, not billions, in at least one sentence. How can MS have 14 billion in assets at one point and be transferring 120billion in assets? And do they *really* have 120bn in assets? In just the European bit?

I mean I suppose it's possible, but would prefer to see a better summary (there's a linked article about JP Morgan moving 250bn to Germany, and overall banks moving 462 billion, so I suppose the numbers except the 14bn in assets bit makes some sense.)

TL;DR: Lots of money and a fair amount of jobs moving to the City as a result of Brexit.

Mr.Nice Guy

https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1337095875198332931

https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1337095876448309250


I find it hard to believe anyone told him this like how he described, but it seems to me if he's passing around this 'anecdote' it suggests he's preparing for No Deal.

jimmycrackcorm

trellheim wrote: »

Morgan Stanley pulling 120 billion from London to Frankfurt


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-10/morgan-stanley-to-shift-about-120-billion-of-assets-to-germany

I don't think any Brexiteers care an iota about this as they cannot see any effect from it. At most, they'll think a few fat cat bankers will lose their jobs.

I've yet to see what the actual negative consequences are compared to say losing 1000's of car manufacturing jobs are practical to people. It seems to be a very subtle effect on their prestige that is going to affect people less than having to go through visa checks in passport control in Spain.