Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

CelticRambler

volchitsa wrote: »

Potatoes, apparently. Weirdly. Saw a report on a news station (forget which one) from Leo Burdocks in Dublin, that said that Irish chips won't have the same taste if they have to source in Europe instead of England. Why Irish potatoes can't be used wasn't explained.

Yeah, I think this is an example of the commercial inertia referred to by others - "we have to buy from England because [reasons]" without making any effort to question those [reasons]. On the specific point about chips, I inadvertently ran a chip-tasting experiment over the summer that makes a nonsense of the Leo Burdocks argument - one crop of potatoes, grown in French soil, made into chips by a Belgian, who said they tasted just like his favourite Belgian chips; same crop cut and cooked by a Kenyan, who said they tasted just like the chips in Mombasa; another batch made by a Dubliner, who said said they tasted just like those from the chipper in Rathfarnham when it was still run by the Italians ...

In the same vein, the French go absolutely mad for apple tarts, apple turnovers, apple sauce, apple other things made by the Brits and the Irish in France. One simple reason: we use Bramley apples (or Granny Smiths, if Bramleys not available) while they sheepishly grow and buy Golden Flavourless by the tonne. I haven't looked into the psychology of it, but it's impressive to see a whole population delude themselves into thinking that there's nothing better than mediocre because ... [reasons].

murphaph

My favourite chips were always the ones the mother made with whatever potatoes were in the house.

Hermy

CelticRambler wrote: »

On the specific point about chips, I inadvertently ran a chip-tasting experiment over the summer that makes a nonsense of the Leo Burdocks argument - one crop of potatoes, grown in French soil, made into chips by a Belgian, who said they tasted just like his favourite Belgian chips; same crop cut and cooked by a Kenyan, who said they tasted just like the chips in Mombasa; another batch made by a Dubliner, who said said they tasted just like those from the chipper in Rathfarnham when it was still run by the Italians ...

Was the point in the news piece not about using different potatoes rather than where those potatoes were grown?

Peregrinus

CelticRambler wrote: »

Yeah, I think this is an example of the commercial inertia referred to by others - "we have to buy from England because [reasons]" without making any effort to question those [reasons]. On the specific point about chips, I inadvertently ran a chip-tasting experiment over the summer that makes a nonsense of the Leo Burdocks argument - one crop of potatoes, grown in French soil, made into chips by a Belgian, who said they tasted just like his favourite Belgian chips; same crop cut and cooked by a Kenyan, who said they tasted just like the chips in Mombasa; another batch made by a Dubliner, who said said they tasted just like those from the chipper in Rathfarnham when it was still run by the Italians ...

I'm not sure how this helps. If all the chips were made from the same variety of potato, and it was a good chipping variety, then it may well be that variety is used in Brussels, in Mombasa and in Rathfarnham; why would anybody use a poor chipping variety to make chips?

If, as I suspect, Irish chippers make chips from frozen chippped potatoes, then they'll tend to source those from the nearest available supplier, because transporting frozen food is expensive the further you transport it, and the longer you take to transport it. It may well be that good frozen chipped potatoes can be sourced in France, but it won't be surprising if the price on delivery in Ireland is noticeably higher than the same potatoes sourced from the UK.

Raw unchipped potatoes, of course, transport quite well and quite cheaply, so there may be an opening for an entrprising Irish business to import the approriate variety and then chip and freeze here for the Irish market. But that kind of thing takes a while to set up and requires investment in plant and premises, and people may be reluctant to make that investment unless they are sure that the no-deal imediments to sourcing from the UK are permanent. So, yeah, there could be at least short-to-medium term disruption to the chipper industry. Still, what's bad for chippers may be good for Chinese takeaways. Swings and roundabouts.

Enzokk

Here is one quote from Malcolm Turnbull who was on QT last night,

https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1337296090144546817?s=20

Too bad we are 3 days before the possible confirmation of no FTA and months of lies about Australia deal before this comes out.

No memes please.

farmerval

I know when Irish Sugar closed, there was a bit of panic among retailers to find sugar that was identical. Apparently took a while. Of course the issue is retailers want to pretend nothing has changed, with no sugar industry here they will want to sell "siucre" and pretend it's grown and processed here.

Regarding Boris Johnson's dinner in Brussels, his comments in the House of Commons that day had surely finished any debate around getting a deal. I thought it was as plain as day he was trying to provoke the EU into giving him the two fingers and telling him where to go.

Earlier in this thread it was posted that when leaks of a big breakthrough in fishing were reported Saturday night the UK returned with different demands around the ownership of boats landing fish on Sunday night. Again not the actions of a side that wants a deal.

Bit like trying to buy something from someone that has no intention of selling but just won't say so. They'll just keep adding conditions and bits and pieces to see will you agree, and if you do they'll add something else.

Patser

Pound down to €1.09.....


It's all a mad slow motion car crash watching the UK

Widdensushi

trellheim wrote: »

As I pointed out before we have no milling capacity ( apart from as someone pointed out, some niche players)

most all our flour - about 200,000+ tonnes a year - comes from UK , tariffs on a no deal would stick about 15c per loaf

see https://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/british-mills-look-to-eu-to-keep-irish-bakers-in-flour-post-brexit-1.4011726

we could get it from the EU but right now we don't.

So we will change where we source it from and the UK will lose a market, not a problem for us so.

lawred2

Widdensushi wrote: »

So we will change where we source it from and the UK will lose a market, not a problem for us so.

presume it'll be more expensive either way

CelticRambler

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm not sure how this helps. If all the chips were made from the same variety of potato, and it was a good chipping variety, then it may well be that variety is used in Brussels, in Mombasa and in Rathfarnham; why would anybody use a poor chipping variety to make chips?

Hence my reference to the French and their apples. Why would anyone - let alone thousands - use an insipid, flavourless apple to make apple-based cakes and pastries? It makes no sense, but they do. My sample size is now in the hundreds, with 100% (no exceptions) preferring the not-Golden variety when given the opportunity to taste and/or buy the alternative under supervision. And yet they'll still go back and buy the crap the next week when left to their own devices.

As for the potatoes - definitely not the same variety used in the three different countries, but there does appear to be a problem with the Irish "housewife" being just as stubborn about her floury potatoes as the French and their Golden Drearilicious. There's no biological reason why Irish farmers couldn't grow Maris Pipers instead of Roosters, or indeed find another variety that chips/freezes well. But fekkit, we'll get them cheap from the Brits ...

CelticRambler

Ooooh. Lovely bit of trolling, there, by UvdL

This is not to say that we would require the UK to follow us every time we decide to raise our level of ambition, for example in the environmental field. They would remain free - sovereign if you wish - to decide what they want to do. We would simply adapt the conditions for access to our market accordingly the decision of the United Kingdom, and this would apply vice versa

volchitsa

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Chipping potatoes used here are Maris Pipers which don't like the cooler climate and damp soils in Ireland.
Irish grown potatoes tend to be more floury and suitable for mashing or baking. If you try and chip them they don't taste as nice and they can look burnt.

OK fair enough for Irish potatoes, although I had gathered that our floury potatoes were as much about what Irish consumers wanted as about the climate. I presume other potatoes suitable for chipping could be grown in the Irish climate if some enterprising farmer were to look a bit farther afield.

Even if they couldn't, what are the odds that England supplies all the chipping potatoes in Europe? The Burdock guy was saying that if he got his spuds from Belgium or wherever, that his chips wouldn't taste as good. I don't believe that, the Belgians are bigger into their chips than the Irish.

I told ya

If anyone is really interested, the Member for East Antrim will be on Any Questions on Radio 4 tonight at 8pm (repeated tomorrow at 1pm).

My own view is that, as usual, it will be a denial of reality. A lot will depend on the presenter.

On the Today programme earlier, can't remember the MP's name, but he waxed lyrically about an Australian deal. The presenter made no effort to seriously challenge this despite the fact that the previous guest was an Australian (again can't remember his name) who clearly stated that Australia did not have a FTA and to be careful what you wish for.

It could well be that case that the BBC are reluctant to go hard on the Brexiteers due to funding/ license issues and no doubt the Brexiteers would be waiting in the long grass.

ElJeffe

I told ya wrote: »

If anyone is really interested, the Member for East Antrim will be on Any Questions on Radio 4 tonight at 8pm (repeated tomorrow at 1pm).

My own view is that, as usual, it will be a denial of reality. A lot will depend on the presenter.

On the Today programme earlier, can't remember the MP's name, but he waxed lyrically about an Australian deal. The presenter made no effort to seriously challenge this despite the fact that the previous guest was an Australian (again can't remember his name) who clearly stated that Australia did not have a FTA and to be careful what you wish for.

It could well be that case that the BBC are reluctant to go hard on the Brexiteers due to funding/ license issues and no doubt the Brexiteers would be waiting in the long grass.

"Going hard" on them will make no difference. They won the referendum and the conservatives have a massive mandate from the last election. The time for asking questions has passed. The Brexiters have fooled everyone and won, that is the reality.

Slagging them off or asking hard questions won't make on iota of a difference this late in the game.

Enzokk

Just looking at the Von der Leyen quotes this morning, Sunday is not the day where no-deal happens. It is just the day when they look and see if a deal can happen.

Semantics I know, but I suspect this will be the timeline for the rest of the week. Sunday will come and go without a breakthrough. Both sides will announce there is no chance of a deal and they are breaking off talks. Markets will react and chaos will ensue, mainly in the UK.

Johnson will eventually be forced back to the EU to agree to the compromises we know has to happen for a deal. This will happen before 31 December and the outline of a deal will be agreed. This will be accepted provisionally by the EU council and parts of it will be implemented temporarily on the condition it is ratified in the new year.

No-deal Brexit is now likeliest, Ursula von der Leyen tells EU leaders

An EU official said the Brexit negotiations were proving difficult in the final days and that the “probability of a no deal is higher than of a deal”. “Negotiations resuming today,” the official added. “To be seen by Sunday whether a deal is possible.”

So even if the news is no deal on Sunday, we should not take that as definite as the only hard timeline is 31 December.

volchitsa

I told ya wrote: »

If anyone is really interested, the Member for East Antrim will be on Any Questions on Radio 4 tonight at 8pm (repeated tomorrow at 1pm).

My own view is that, as usual, it will be a denial of reality. A lot will depend on the presenter.

On the Today programme earlier, can't remember the MP's name, but he waxed lyrically about an Australian deal. The presenter made no effort to seriously challenge this despite the fact that the previous guest was an Australian (again can't remember his name) who clearly stated that Australia did not have a FTA and to be careful what you wish for.

It could well be that case that the BBC are reluctant to go hard on the Brexiteers due to funding/ license issues and no doubt the Brexiteers would be waiting in the long grass.

Could have been Malcolm Turnbull, ex Aussie PM, who was on Question Time last night and said the same thing.

kalych

volchitsa wrote: »

OK fair enough for Irish potatoes, although I had gathered that our floury potatoes were as much about what Irish consumers wanted as about the climate. I presume other potatoes suitable for chipping could be grown in the Irish climate if some enterprising farmer were to look a bit farther afield.

Even if they couldn't, what are the odds that England supplies all the chipping potatoes in Europe? The Burdock guy was saying that if he got his spuds from Belgium or wherever, that his chips wouldn't taste as good. I don't believe that, the Belgians are bigger into their chips than the Irish.

I imagine it's as much if not more about Burdock's getting a discount by buying in bulk from a single large supplier in the UK and not getting the same discount locally.

Whenever businesses talk about customer preferences with such vigour i can betcha it's because the real reason is financial.

volchitsa

I told ya wrote: »

If anyone is really interested, the Member for East Antrim will be on Any Questions on Radio 4 tonight at 8pm (repeated tomorrow at 1pm).

My own view is that, as usual, it will be a denial of reality. A lot will depend on the presenter.

On the Today programme earlier, can't remember the MP's name, but he waxed lyrically about an Australian deal. The presenter made no effort to seriously challenge this despite the fact that the previous guest was an Australian (again can't remember his name) who clearly stated that Australia did not have a FTA and to be careful what you wish for.

It could well be that case that the BBC are reluctant to go hard on the Brexiteers due to funding/ license issues and no doubt the Brexiteers would be waiting in the long grass.

The BBC has been disastrous on this all along, they're not going to change now.
The number of times I've heard Laura Kuenssberg claim that the EU was about to crumble in various ways, or that Varadkar or Coveney were about to be thrown under the bus by the Germans etc etc... The BBC has been taking whatever Downing Street tells them and putting it in the mouths of "sources" as though they had information direct from Brussels.

ambro25

CelticRambler wrote: »

Yeah, I think this is an example of the commercial inertia referred to by others - "we have to buy from England because [reasons]" without making any effort to question those [reasons]. On the specific point about chips, I inadvertently ran a chip-tasting experiment over the summer that makes a nonsense of the Leo Burdocks argument - one crop of potatoes, grown in French soil, made into chips by a Belgian, who said they tasted just like his favourite Belgian chips; same crop cut and cooked by a Kenyan, who said they tasted just like the chips in Mombasa; another batch made by a Dubliner, who said said they tasted just like those from the chipper in Rathfarnham when it was still run by the Italians ...

In the same vein, the French go absolutely mad for apple tarts, apple turnovers, apple sauce, apple other things made by the Brits and the Irish in France. One simple reason: we use Bramley apples (or Granny Smiths, if Bramleys not available) while they sheepishly grow and buy Golden Flavourless by the tonne. I haven't looked into the psychology of it, but it's impressive to see a whole population delude themselves into thinking that there's nothing better than mediocre because ... [reasons].

You can't be knowing the "right" French

Or else, maybe just a subset of highly-urbanised types without access to an orchard? :pac:

Drop by our northeastern corner of the hexagon sonetime, so we can broaden your experience. Oh, and show you the small-ish orchard (4 apple varieties, picked Sept/Oct and cellar-stored in enough volume to make apple things fairly frequently until well past Easter).

And, I'd argue, of more representative value than the merely anecdotal

PS - UK Mrs swears by ratte varities for chips. Small/thin cut and panfried in saindoux with lardons, is the way it's done around here.

apologies for O/T.

More-or-less on-T, I always thought, and in practice found, the Irish to enjoy their food and care for ingredients as much as the French, so I'd like to think that whatever impairements to UK food sources and foodstuffs landbridge Brexit ends up throwing, will be overcome by new links with the Continent and that a symbiotic/culinary relationship gets fostered.

CelticRambler

volchitsa wrote: »

The Burdock guy was saying that if he got his spuds from Belgium or wherever, that his chips wouldn't taste as good. I don't believe that, the Belgians are bigger into their chips than the Irish.

Not only the Belgians, but the French too. The Belgians supply a massive proportion of the French chip/frites market, and Belgian potato growers have been devastated by the cancellation of just about every festive event in the two countries throughout the summer, leaving them with barns full of unsold, now unusable potatoes and a serious lack of cash (and enthusiasm) to invest in next year's crop. Absolutely nothing to do with Brexit, and of far more importance to the Franco-Belgian economy than fishing rights.

Widdensushi

CelticRambler wrote: »

Not only the Belgians, but the French too. The Belgians supply a massive proportion of the French chip/frites market, and Belgian potato growers have been devastated by the cancellation of just about every festive event in the two countries throughout the summer, leaving them with barns full of unsold, now unusable potatoes and a serious lack of cash (and enthusiasm) to invest in next year's crop. Absolutely nothing to do with Brexit, and of far more importance to the Franco-Belgian economy than fishing rights.

I would have thought a product like potatoes wasn't overly affected by covid, that people would have eaten them anyway, while pasta seemed to have been in demand, there are so many businesses affected by it that we don't think of.

druss

CelticRambler wrote: »

Not only the Belgians, but the French too. The Belgians supply a massive proportion of the French chip/frites market, and Belgian potato growers have been devastated by the cancellation of just about every festive event in the two countries throughout the summer, leaving them with barns full of unsold, now unusable potatoes and a serious lack of cash (and enthusiasm) to invest in next year's crop. Absolutely nothing to do with Brexit, and of far more importance to the Franco-Belgian economy than fishing rights.

Indeed. A country which had a patriotic call to arms to eat chips at least twice a week for Belgium is much to be admired.

And if the same freight containners can increase the beer exchange, bring on ever closer Union!

Geuze

trellheim wrote: »

As I pointed out before we have no milling capacity ( apart from as someone pointed out, some niche players)

most all our flour - about 200,000+ tonnes a year - comes from UK , tariffs on a no deal would stick about 15c per loaf

see https://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/british-mills-look-to-eu-to-keep-irish-bakers-in-flour-post-brexit-1.4011726

we could get it from the EU but right now we don't.

Sorry, we have no flour milling capacity??

I presume Odlums have a plant here to turn grain into flour?

Portarlington?

axer

Enzokk wrote: »

So even if the news is no deal on Sunday, we should not take that as definite as the only hard timeline is 31 December.

Does anyone know if a deal has to go through the British parliament? There's talks that they are going on Christmas holidays from the 21st December (don't know for how long). If not is johnson waiting until Christmas to agree whatever to duck under the cover of that break? The EU parliament have scheduled a sitting for the 28th December to deal with a last minute agreement.

cml387

Geuze wrote: »

Sorry, we have no flour milling capacity??

I presume Odlums have a plant here to turn grain into flour?

Portarlington?

I think I read somewhere that the flour used to make your standard white pan loaf comes from the UK.

Winters

Too much food talk - im getting hungry.

An Ciarraioch

Geuze wrote: »

Sorry, we have no flour milling capacity??

I presume Odlums have a plant here to turn grain into flour?

Portarlington?

Flour is mostly milled in Portadown, seemingly, so presumably that's covered by the Protocol?

breezy1985

volchitsa wrote: »

Potatoes, apparently. Weirdly. Saw a report on a news station (forget which one) from Leo Burdocks in Dublin, that said that Irish chips won't have the same taste if they have to source in Europe instead of England. Why Irish potatoes can't be used wasn't explained.

I'm sure the Belgians will be able to sort us out.
And send us over some of them lovely sauces they use on their chips too

ambro25

axer wrote: »

Does anyone know if a deal has to go through the British parliament? There's talks that they are going on Christmas holidays from the 21st December (don't know for how long). If not is johnson waiting until Christmas to agree whatever to duck under the cover of that break? The EU parliament have scheduled a sitting for the 28th December to deal with a last minute agreement.

Logically yes, it has to, since the terms would impinge British sovereignty to some extent at least, and since British sovereignty vests in Parliament, according to the British Supreme Court.

But with an 80 seat majority, this should be a formality for the government (this time around).

joe40

Here my totally uneducated take on this.

There are the complex trade issues things like tariffs, regulations etc and there is the politics of sovereignty, flag waving brexiteers etc.

Jan 1st will come and we we will get the pomp and jingoism of finally leaving the EU, independence day type nonsense. Boris needs the politics, and showmanship of this.

Then the actual behind the scenes work of getting a trade deal will happen and really only people involved in the actual industries will be particularly affected by the details.

I think it will be a strange type of psychology at work, where things which are unacceptable now because of some perceived sleight on sovereignty will be fine after "Brexit" has happened because they'll be negotiating as an independant country.

The Tories have to satisfy their brexiteer base, which is going to cause untold and unnecessary hardship.