Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

I hope a deal can be struck,all I'm saying is the indignation and gnashing of teeth because the UK has the audacity to want to control its own waters is bizarre.
Btw,it's not just brexiteers who think the UK should be able to control its own waters.

Do you think it is bizarre that the EU should be able to control access to its SM?

What is really bizarre in this entire mess, is that UK completely failed to think the EU would ever have any position. They seemed to think that everything was about them, that the EU had no things they valued. The EU would be only too happy to give the UK anything and everything they wanted.

The ironic thing is that the deal they have managed to get close to actually give them pretty much everything they could have hoped for.

FoM is gone. Payments to EU are gone. ECJ is gone. But none of that is enough. Now is all about fishing rights!

timetogo1

I heard Johnson talk about the three big issues today.

The level playing field, fish and governance.
One of those issues is a load bigger than the others (and its not fish).

The EU cant bend for the LPV (it's important for the single market) but it sounds to me the UK Gov throw the fishing into the mix as it is understandable to the average Brexiters and sounds patriotic and easy to paint as the EUs fault.

salonfire

Question, why is the Level Playing Field such a sticking point?

If the UK are making a product they sell to the EU and if they accept the standards required to sell that product into the Single Market, could they produce the same product in parallel to lesser standard for sale outside the EU?

So if a chemical is banned in the EU, don't use it as part of manufacturing goods to sell to the EU.
But if not banned in China, could the UK use that chemical for China destined goods? That way the standards of goods into the EU are kept.. ?

RobMc59

fly_agaric wrote: »

For my part found this news almost funny yesterday. I'd expected running all the Frogs & Paddies etc right out of "Sovereign UK waters" would be a very high priority for this UK government in event of a "no deal" at the end of the transition period.

At the moment from what I've read about the issue UK will struggle to both expand catch and find new markets for it all ,but I'm sure they will do so eventually. Good quality food always has a market in the end I think.

In the meantime they're pouring petrol on + setting fire to more bridges with their neighbours. If they are busy seizing vessels and arresting fishermen those who have the naval means (e.g. France - we don't) will retaliate and their fish exports will not be welcome either.

So you expect aggressive French military action in UK fishing grounds?
Access to UK fishing grounds seems to be very important to EU nations which is why it is being used as leverage by the UK-So both parties have something the other wants access it-And before the usual 'EU don't really need access' which is generally trotted out at this point, why is this insignificant thing causing fuses to blow in eu coastal countries?

timetogo1

salonfire wrote: »

Question, why is the Level Playing Field such a sticking point?

If the UK are making a product they sell to the EU and if they accept the standards required to sell that product into the Single Market, could they produce the same product in parallel to lesser standard for sale outside the EU?

So if a chemical is banned in the EU, don't use it as part of manufacturing goods to sell to the EU.
But if not banned in China, could the UK use that chemical for China destined goods? That way the standards of goods into the EU are kept.. ?

LPV isn't just about goods.

From https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2020/1212/1183991-tony-connelly-brexit/

Both sides would "uphold the common high standards" that would be in place from the moment the transition ends in the fields of state aid, competition, social and employment standards, environment, climate change, and taxation.

RobMc59

salonfire wrote: »

Question, why is the Level Playing Field such a sticking point?

If the UK are making a product they sell to the EU and if they accept the standards required to sell that product into the Single Market, could they produce the same product in parallel to lesser standard for sale outside the EU?

So if a chemical is banned in the EU, don't use it as part of manufacturing goods to sell to the EU.
But if not banned in China, could the UK use that chemical for China destined goods? That way the standards of goods into the EU are kept.. ?

I'm not a brexiteer so don't know why the UK government can't see that in the current situation it's not in any position to try to go it alone.Far better to agree a time limited deal(perhaps five yearly, obviously reviewable by both parties)Which then could be either continued or tweaked to suit with mutual agreement

fly_agaric

RobMc59 wrote: »

So you expect aggressive French military action in UK fishing grounds?
Access to UK fishing grounds seems to be very important to EU nations which is why it is being used as leverage by the UK-So both parties have something the other wants access it-And before the usual 'EU don't really need access' which is generally trotted out at this point, why is this insignificant thing causing fuses to blow in eu coastal countries?

No, I don't think that at all. You've gotten the wrong end of the stick there.
I think that, for example, at least some UK fishermen probably spend some of their time in "French" waters or other EU countries waters but if their govt. carries on down the road it is on they'd better be quite careful in future exactly whose waters they are in at any given time if they don't want hassle!

I agree with you it is an important issue, kind of like agriculture and farming in that it has a greater significance than would be suggested by trying to stick to pure monetary value of the sector when considering it.

edit: Should clarify that I don't think having total control of UK EEZ/fish caught in UK waters is worth the UK blowing off an agreement with the EU, but there you go.

Strazdas

RobMc59 wrote: »

I hope a deal can be struck,all I'm saying is the indignation and gnashing of teeth because the UK has the audacity to want to control its own waters is bizarre.
Btw,it's not just brexiteers who think the UK should be able to control its own waters.

But using that argument would say that Ireland should have refused a bailout from the IMF in 2010. It would have left half the country on the dole and people starving but at least Ireland would have been 'exerting its sovereignty and independence'.

Joe_ Public

Why should the uk continue to grant its coastal neighbours the same access to its fishing waters? Why indeed. Then again, why should the eu continue to grant the uk cheap access to the single energy market? No real reason i would suppose.

Enzokk

salonfire wrote: »

Question, why is the Level Playing Field such a sticking point?

If the UK are making a product they sell to the EU and if they accept the standards required to sell that product into the Single Market, could they produce the same product in parallel to lesser standard for sale outside the EU?

So if a chemical is banned in the EU, don't use it as part of manufacturing goods to sell to the EU.
But if not banned in China, could the UK use that chemical for China destined goods? That way the standards of goods into the EU are kept.. ?

Not going to claim I am an expert but I don't think you can have a level playing field between the EU and UK and then produce something at lower standards for sale in another market. You cannot lessen working time standards just because you are producing products for China while having workers in another part of the factory working to EU standards.

So the option if you want to have that lower base to work from is not to agree to LPF and then accept the tariffs on products, but how will they sell that to their manufacturing sector?

Basically its still a mess and one of the worst ideas out there, but democracy so you gotta Brexit.

Sam Russell

salonfire wrote: »

Question, why is the Level Playing Field such a sticking point?

If the UK are making a product they sell to the EU and if they accept the standards required to sell that product into the Single Market, could they produce the same product in parallel to lesser standard for sale outside the EU?

So if a chemical is banned in the EU, don't use it as part of manufacturing goods to sell to the EU.
But if not banned in China, could the UK use that chemical for China destined goods? That way the standards of goods into the EU are kept.. ?

So UK Gov reduces the working time directive so that employers can demand workers work 60 hour weeks, so reducing labour costs. How is that compatible with EU standards?

They remove the ban on GMO foods - same again.

If a chemical is banned, it is banned - so how is its use confined to non EU production?

If environment legislation is brought in, but the UK opts out, they get an advantage if they can avoid the higher costs of complying.

It is all about unfair competition. Simples.

fash

RobMc59 wrote: »

The prepackaged,off the shelf labelling of someone as a brexiteer because they criticize the EU speaks volumes about your mindset bonnie.I can understand that as the stronger party the EU can insist upon the UK following eu rules if it wants a deal. .What is hard to understand is the indignation and anger that the UK wants to control it's own waters-are you all so subservient to brussels that you would take being dictated to like that?

It's not criticism of the EU that is the issue - it is petty xenophobic dog whistle name calling.
One might note false and deliberately disingenuous terms such as "subservience" to Brussels: Ireland is the EU - and the EU has unswervingly ensured that Ireland's interests have been met (against severe and continuous British threats and hostility).

So please - stop pretending you are not a Brexiter.

As regards what the UK "wants"- it wants privileged access to the single market while being (alone) permitted to undercut everyone else. So again please be honest as to what the UK is seeking here.

RobMc59

Strazdas wrote: »

But using that argument would say that Ireland should have refused a bailout from the IMF in 2010. It would have left half the country on the dole and people starving but at least Ireland would have been 'exerting its sovereignty and independence'.

I understand Ireland's loyalty of the EU completely., it has been very good for Ireland and as a foreigner who has seen the Ireland of the 70s/80s transformed into a totally different place(in a good way!)thanks to being part of the EU.
I don't see how Ireland having a loan off the IMF compares with who has the say over fishing within UK waters.

swampgas

salonfire wrote: »

Question, why is the Level Playing Field such a sticking point?

If the UK are making a product they sell to the EU and if they accept the standards required to sell that product into the Single Market, could they produce the same product in parallel to lesser standard for sale outside the EU?

So if a chemical is banned in the EU, don't use it as part of manufacturing goods to sell to the EU.
But if not banned in China, could the UK use that chemical for China destined goods? That way the standards of goods into the EU are kept.. ?

The LPV is an issue because the Tories are lying through their teeth, as usual - they have no intention of maintaining standards, it's all about short term gains and giving way to the US on food standards.

RobMc59

fash wrote: »

It's not criticism of the EU that is the issue - it is petty xenophobic dog whistle name calling.
One might note false and deliberately disingenuous terms such as "subservience" to Brussels: Ireland is the EU - and the EU has unswervingly ensured that Ireland's interests have been met (against severe and continuous British threats and hostility).

So please - stop pretending you are not a Brexiter.

As regards what the UK "wants"- it wants privileged access to the single market while being (alone) permitted to undercut everyone else. So again please be honest as to what the UK is seeking here.

I don't know your personal circumstances fash but believe you live and I assume work in Britain( as does ACD),so can understand your concerns.I have similar concerns, as .I've said on many occasions I hope to move to Ireland eventually-why in earth would I want that to be harder(or even impossible)to achieve?

Sam Russell

RobMc59 wrote: »

I understand Ireland's loyalty of the EU completely., it has been very good for Ireland and as a foreigner who has seen the Ireland of the 70s/80s transformed into a totally different place(in a good way!)thanks to being part of the EU.
I don't see how Ireland having a loan off the IMF compares with who has the say over fishing within UK waters.

The UK has been transformed since joining the EU from the bankrupt economy of he 1960s 1970s to the troublesome 3 day week miner's strike period and Poll Tax riots of the early Thatcher's regime to the big bang explosion of the City of London deregulation extravaganza. The Single Market allowed the economy to really take off.

Of course, the collapse of manufacturing was not important, as it only affected Labour areas.

But things will be OK now he Tories are back with an 80 seat majority.

Strazdas

RobMc59 wrote: »

I understand Ireland's loyalty of the EU completely., it has been very good for Ireland and as a foreigner who has seen the Ireland of the 70s/80s transformed into a totally different place(in a good way!)thanks to being part of the EU.
I don't see how Ireland having a loan off the IMF compares with who has the say over fishing within UK waters.

The bailout was recognised by everyone as a total loss of sovereignty and rather humiliating. But the widespread belief was that to refuse the bailout would have been insane : sovereignty wouldn't put food on a person's table or money in their wallet.

Johnson seems to be going for the idea that sovereignty trumps everything. Who knows, maybe the English public even agree with him. It would be very interesting to see a YouGov poll.

listermint

RobMc59 wrote: »

I understand Ireland's loyalty of the EU completely., it has been very good for Ireland and as a foreigner who has seen the Ireland of the 70s/80s transformed into a totally different place(in a good way!)thanks to being part of the EU.
I don't see how Ireland having a loan off the IMF compares with who has the say over fishing within UK waters.

I'm not sure how self aware you are or not, but the UK absolutely prospered because of its entry to the EEC and then the EU . City's across the UK were night and day from the early 70s precisely because they were part of the Union. Your assertion that its the reserve of plucky little Ireland's access to the EU and some how the UK has always been absolutely superb under its own steam is in short.

. gas.

RobMc59

Sam Russell wrote: »

The UK has been transformed since joining the EU from the bankrupt economy of he 1960s 1970s to the troublesome 3 day week miner's strike period and Poll Tax riots of the early Thatcher's regime to the big bang explosion of the City of London deregulation extravaganza. The Single Market allowed the economy to really take off.

Of course, the collapse of manufacturing was not important, as it only affected Labour areas.

But things will be OK now he Tories are back with an 80 seat majority.

Sam,I remember the power cuts as a lad and it wasn't very pleasant!

Sam Russell

RobMc59 wrote: »

Sam,I remember the power cuts as a lad and it wasn't very pleasant!

Well I hope they do not revisit you as a result of a No Deal Brexit. You might have to eat your mackerel and chips in the dark.

RobMc59

listermint wrote: »

I'm not sure how self aware you are or not, but the UK absolutely prospered because of its entry to the EEC and then the EU . City's across the UK were night and day from the early 70s precisely because they were part of the Union. Your assertion that its the reserve of plucky little Ireland's access to the EU and some how the UK has always been absolutely superb under its own steam is in short.

. gas.

Can you point out where I said anything about the UK being absolutely superb?I've said I hope to move to Ireland,doesn't that tell you anything?

PeadarCo

RobMc59 wrote: »

I understand Ireland's loyalty of the EU completely., it has been very good for Ireland and as a foreigner who has seen the Ireland of the 70s/80s transformed into a totally different place(in a good way!)thanks to being part of the EU.
I don't see how Ireland having a loan off the IMF compares with who has the say over fishing within UK waters.

But you are ignoring the point. The issue isn't about UK waters it's the consequences. The UK by making a stand on fishing waters is trying to damage its own citizens. Fishing should be irrelevant. If the UK wants a functional fishing industry in the short term(long term UK fish preferences could change) it needs a deal. So the question is not why is it such a big deal who fishes in UK waters, its why is the UK trying to destroy/damage an industry that its government is trying to protect. But this self destructive behaviour is Brexit in a nutshell.

Ireland isn't loyal per say I'd argue its just that membership of the EU protects Irish interests best. The whole Brexit process is testament to that. I'd also argue that membership of the EU best protects UK interests. This is also something I think Brexit has shown. The biggest barrier to a Brexit deal is how long its taking the UK government/Brexiters to realise that the UK is long past the point of being a rule maker globally on its own(inside the EU the UK was a rule maker as seen by its many opt outs) and by leaving the EU has from a rule maker to a rule taker. When the UK comes to terms with that a deal will be done.

LPF is important as the UK want to avoid where possible any worsening relative to their current situation.

Sure they could diverge but the cost might be for example conformity tests or quotas on trade with the EU, eliminating any advantage gained.

20silkcut

There is generally a strong narrative in the U.K. of everything pre 1973 bring fantastic and glorious Britain and everything since has been decline and replacement of the indigenous population.
The truth is Britain is a far bigger and better country than it was in 1973. Living standards have sky rocketed. The population of its largest cities has doubled and tripled. A huge part of Britain is part of the Manchester/ Milan core region of the EU. I remember my leaving cert geography!! The prosperous core region of the EU was where you wanted to be. Britain has gotten far more benefit out of EU membership than Ireland ever has yet you may as well be talking to the wall trying to point that fact out to your average Brit.

Akrasia

swampgas wrote: »

The LPV is an issue because the Tories are lying through their teeth, as usual - they have no intention of maintaining standards, it's all about short term gains and giving way to the US on food standards.

Johnson built a career from lying about EU standards (bendy bananas, ban on newspapers with fish and chips etc)
The EU negotiators know they cannot trust him as far as they can throw him

yagan

20silkcut wrote: »

There is generally a strong narrative in the U.K. of everything pre 1973 bring fantastic and glorious Britain and everything since has been decline and replacement of the indigenous population.
The truth is Britain is a far bigger and better country than it was in 1973. Living standards have sky rocketed. The population of its largest cities has doubled and tripled. A huge part of Britain is part of the Manchester/ Milan core region of the EU. I remember my leaving cert geography!! The prosperous core region of the EU was where you wanted to be. Britain has gotten far more benefit out of EU membership than Ireland ever has yet you may as well be talking to the wall trying to point that fact out to your average Brit.

That sounds good but 9 out of the 10 poorest regions in northern Europe are in the UK, and mostly in the former industrial centres of the north.
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-uk-has-9-out-of-the-10-poorest-regions-in-northern-europe/06/06/

54and56

Strazdas wrote: »

But he has backed himself into a horrendous corner. All he has talked about all week has been red lines, red lines, red lines. Compromise now and he could well be turfed out as leader - note how No Deal doesn't seem to be any risk to him (for now anyway)as Conservative leader.

BoJo will do his own version of a David Cameron..... lead the country into an impossible situation, take credit for delivering what he promised to deliver ("Getting Brexit Done") then slip away and leave someone else to clean up the mess.

peter kern

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well I hope they do not revisit you as a result of a No Deal Brexit. You might have to eat your mackerel and chips in the dark.

this used to be quite a good thread but it seems to be going down to tabloid paper level

Sam Russell

peter kern wrote: »

[/B][/B]


this used to be quite a good thread but it seems to be going down to tabloid paper level

Are jokes not allowed anymore?

Nody

Sam Russell wrote: »

Are jokes not allowed anymore?

Not from the EU (suppose to hold a higher standard, remember the cherry joke?); and only from UK (see the joke from Boris last night). It's in the agreed deal as well because it's well known French and Germans don't do jokes anyway.