Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Professor Moriarty

forgottenhills wrote: »

Except the UK is not a third world country by any means, jest or not. This is the country which lent us a few billion when we were on our uppers only a few years ago and which is still a major customer for the exports we produce which support many jobs here (as opposed to some of our more automated exports or those related to an element of bogus GDP such as transfer pricing, IP movements etc). In my time on this earth I have learned not to insult my neighbours, especially those that are also my customers. If people here went on a UK message board and saw Ireland described as a third world country we wouldn't be terribly amused.

What interest rate was Ireland charged? If you want see Ireland and its people described in a disparaging way, I suggest you check out the comments section in the Mail, Express and Telegraph.

listermint

forgottenhills wrote: »

Except the UK is not a third world country by any means, jest or not. This is the country which lent us a few billion when we were on our uppers only a few years ago and which is still a major customer for the exports we produce which support many jobs here (as opposed to some of our more automated exports or those related to an element of bogus GDP such as transfer pricing, IP movements etc). In my time on this earth I have learned not to insult my neighbours, especially those that are also my customers. If people here went on a UK message board and saw Ireland described as a third world country we wouldn't be terribly amused.

Absolute Irony considering the utterings out of the UK over the last 4 years.


I mean, have you even been following ?

Lumen

listermint wrote: »

Whatever about the Mandelson quote - Paying their taxes as opposed to not is a good thing.

And frankly i find the Blairism commentary utterly boring all the same. It was the longest period of growth in the UK where living standards were raised across the board for everyone. It was basically the best feel good era in modern times after VE Day.

But Iraq yada yada etc etc. Blairism....

Yeah, hundreds of thousands of violent deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan really takes the edge off the feelgood. Booo-ring.

forgottenhills

listermint wrote: »

Absolute Irony considering the utterings out of the UK over the last 4 years.


I mean, have you even been following ?

Using the excuse of whataboutery doesn't make insulting one's neighbours right or smart.

Sam Russell

forgottenhills wrote: »

Using the excuse of whataboutery doesn't make insulting one's neighbours right or smart.

I tried to buy something from a UK company website yesterday, and it was all OK until I wanted it delivered. It listed a lot of countries but no Ireland - strange. So I phoned them and asked if they delivered to Ireland. "Yes we do" was the reply. "But you haven't it listed". "Yes we have". "Well I can't find it". "It's there - Southern Ireland". "But I live in Ireland - I would never look for Southern Ireland ". "Well it is there". "You should list it as Ireland because that is the name". He then said he was not sure they would be doing export business in the new year. Not a helpful attitude.

Anyway, I went elsewhere, where their website not only recognised I was in Ireland, it accepted my Eircode, and even gave me a 10% discount, with delivery expected in three days.

I think a lot of businesses in the UK will have to smarten up.

paul71

forgottenhills wrote: »

Using the excuse of whataboutery doesn't make insulting one's neighbours right or smart.

For the most part this tread has not been insulting to the UK. It is based on incredulity at the self harm they have engaged in. There has been justified negative reaction to insults thrown by the UK press at Ireland and the EU, but a daily mail comment section this tread is not.

Cheensbo

forgottenhills wrote: »

Using the excuse of whataboutery doesn't make insulting one's neighbours right or smart.

Agreed,


definitely shouldn't attempt to threaten their neighbors food supply, or tell them that they should know their place. That's just not right or smart tbh.

Professor Moriarty

paul71 wrote: »

For the most part this tread has not been insulting to the UK. It is based on incredulity at the self harm they have engaged in. There has been justified negative reaction to insults thrown by the UK press at Ireland and the EU, but a daily mail comment section this tread is not.

The vast majority of invective has been directed at populist Tory Brexiteers. No apology to be made there.

forgottenhills

Cheensbo wrote: »

Agreed,


definitely shouldn't attempt to threaten their neighbors food supply, or tell them that they should know their place. That's just not right or smart tbh.

Do you accept quotes from one or more idiotic politicians or citizens as representing the view and policies of that politician's or citizen's entire nation? In that case UK people reading the comments of some our gombeen politicians or some of the comments on message boards like this one would be startled.

Whereas, as opposed to those comments, the reality of what has actually happened is that the UK (at great cost and nuisance to itself) has created a customs border within its own state to accommodate Northern Ireland remaining in the Single Market for goods.

Lumen

forgottenhills wrote: »

the reality of what has actually happened is that the UK (at great cost and nuisance to itself) has created a customs border within its own state to accommodate Northern Ireland remaining in the Single Market for goods.

It was forced to do this by the EU and US as a precondition for any trade deals.

Cheensbo

forgottenhills wrote: »

Do you accept quotes from one or more idiotic politicians or citizens as representing the view and policies of that politician's or citizen's entire nation? In that case UK people reading the comments of some our gombeen politicians or some of the comments on message boards like this one would be startled.

Whereas, as opposed to those comments, the reality of what has actually happened is that the UK (at great cost and nuisance to itself) has created a customs border within its own state to accommodate Northern Ireland remaining in the Single Market for goods.

Not sure what you're trying to say tbh, the articles I posted were based on direct quotes from elected representatives in the british government. The guff you are referring to coming out of Ireland is from message boards. If you are unwilling to see the difference between these two, I can't assist.

The UK (at great cost and nuisance to every other nation in the EU/world) has started - for no apparent reason, or tangible benefit - a trade war - against itself. As a result, it has had to effectively cut off Northern Ireland from it's own customs union, in order to satisfy the international treaties and agreements that it had already signed up to.

No other country on the planet can be blamed for any of the effects of Brexit - other than the UK, it is entirely on the British voters & government.

Winters

Lumen wrote: »

It was forced to do this by the EU and US as a precondition for any trade deals.

The UK has not been forced to do anything. It has had a choice each time. A sovereign choice.

Professor Moriarty

Lumen wrote: »

It was forced to do this by the EU and US as a precondition for any trade deals.

Do you think that was an unfair precondition?

swampgas

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

It's a country that can not feed its own children.


Thats very 3rd worldish dont you think? Plenty of 3rd world countries have extremes of poverty and "elites" who are insanely rich.

The UK is run by a government that doesn't want to feed its own children. They certainly could feed everyone if the political will was there. Instead they see the poor as a disposable underclass to be despised and abused.

forgottenhills

Cheensbo wrote: »

Not sure what you're trying to say tbh, the articles I posted were based on direct quotes from elected representatives in the british government. The guff you are referring to coming out of Ireland is from message boards. If you are unwilling to see the difference between these two, I can't assist.

The UK (at great cost and nuisance to every other nation in the EU/world) has started - for no apparent reason, or tangible benefit - a trade war - against itself. As a result, it has had to effectively cut off Northern Ireland from it's own customs union, in order to satisfy the international treaties and agreements that it had already signed up to.

No other country on the planet can be blamed for any of the effects of Brexit - other than the UK, it is entirely on the British voters & government.

The quotes were from MPs who were not in the UK government at the time and their remarks didn't form the actual terms of an eventual agreement. It is dangerous to react to every random utterance of a country's politicians as if it represents the policy of its government.

paul71

forgottenhills wrote: »

Do you accept quotes from one or more idiotic politicians or citizens as representing the view and policies of that politician's or citizen's entire nation? In that case UK people reading the comments of some our gombeen politicians or some of the comments on message boards like this one would be startled.

Whereas, as opposed to those comments, the reality of what has actually happened is that the UK (at great cost and nuisance to itself) has created a customs border within its own state to accommodate Northern Ireland remaining in the Single Market for goods.

Which comments here or by our "Gombeen politicians" referred to the British people? From what I have seen of this tread the ire has been targeted at the ERG part of the Tory party and people like the gentleman a couple of pages back who attacked his Dutch suppliers with a rant.

What comment by a "Gombeen Politician" was factual incorrect or indeed insulting and which Gombeen made that comment. I cannot offhand recall such a comment from any of our politicians. There have many such from UK politicians.

Lumen

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Do you think that was an unfair precondition?

I do not.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: UNICEF and food poverty-related posts have been moved to the general British politics thread.

Zubeneschamali

I think the worst conclusion we can draw about the EU from the productivity issue is that the EU framework did not stop short-term thinking among bosses and politicians degrading UK productivity.

The idea that leaving the EU and giving even more control of the UK labour market to those people will help to fix the issue seems counterintuitive to me.

mrunsure

Is there any concern in Ireland about increased EU immigration because of people choosing Ireland instead of the UK?

paul71

mrunsure wrote: »

Is there any concern in Ireland about increased EU immigration because of people choosing Ireland instead of the UK?

Not really from what I can tell, we have have far higher rates than the UK for the last 3 decades and EU migrants settle here easily.

Strazdas

mrunsure wrote: »

Is there any concern in Ireland about increased EU immigration because of people choosing Ireland instead of the UK?

I wouldn't think so. Most people come to start work in a specific job - having said that, it would be no surprise to see EU immigration start to climb again, having levelled off a bit in recent years.

One wonders though what will happen to EU immigration to the UK. It's becoming a very unattractive option for a variety of reasons.

Strazdas

Sam Russell wrote: »

I tried to buy something from a UK company website yesterday, and it was all OK until I wanted it delivered. It listed a lot of countries but no Ireland - strange. So I phoned them and asked if they delivered to Ireland. "Yes we do" was the reply. "But you haven't it listed". "Yes we have". "Well I can't find it". "It's there - Southern Ireland". "But I live in Ireland - I would never look for Southern Ireland ". "Well it is there". "You should list it as Ireland because that is the name". He then said he was not sure they would be doing export business in the new year. Not a helpful attitude.

Anyway, I went elsewhere, where their website not only recognised I was in Ireland, it accepted my Eircode, and even gave me a 10% discount, with delivery expected in three days.

I think a lot of businesses in the UK will have to smarten up.

Very sloppy not to have the correct name of a country on a website. You wouldn't list the Netherlands as 'Holland' or the US as 'America', not if you're trying to sell to people from there.

ancapailldorcha

mrunsure wrote: »

Is there any concern in Ireland about increased EU immigration because of people choosing Ireland instead of the UK?

I'd be disinclined to worry. EU migrants tend to head to countries that are booming where they can either arrange a job beforehand or head over with their savings confident that they'll land something.

It's not a zero sum game where they must be shared around. Even before covid, migration from the EU27 to Britain was dropping. Once covid lifts and if the economy recovers strongly, that may change of course.

fly_agaric

forgottenhills wrote: »

In my time on this earth I have learned not to insult my neighbours, especially those that are also my customers. If people here went on a UK message board and saw Ireland described as a third world country we wouldn't be terribly amused.

I fully agree with you about some of the comments or invective against the UK that get posted on this thread. It isn't good.

However, despite protestations otherwise a big piece of the Brexit project is about delivering a good kick in the bollix to your neighbours to make yourself feel better. It is pure nationalism.

It is very obvious when things like notorious fish come up, where the Brexiters in the UK start squealing with excitement at the thought of Royal Navy patrol vessels running the newly-illegal foreign boats out of UK waters after Jan 1st.

Unfortunately when you start down that road (as the UK has both with Brexit itself & also how it has conducted itself in leaving the EU), it is predictible that the reaction invites a counter-reaction and even if it wasn't a lie to start with, the whole "oh we hate the EU, we love Europe & our neighbours really" vision is obscured by a cloud of bad feeling and acrimony.

View

mrunsure wrote: »

Is there any concern in Ireland about increased EU immigration because of people choosing Ireland instead of the UK?

Why would people be concerned about their fellow EU citizens moving here and working to making the place more prosperous?

mrunsure

It is very good to see a unanimous response there. So different to the UK. I suspect the UK would still be in the EU had it not been expanded to central/eastern Europe and I'm almost certain that immigration was the main reason for the Leave vote.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Even before covid, migration from the EU27 to Britain was dropping.

It dropped dramatically soon after the Leave vote, as EU citizens no longer felt welcome and there were concerns about their ability to continue living in the UK after Brexit.

mrunsure

View wrote: »

Why would people be concerned about their fellow EU citizens moving here and working to making the place more prosperous?

You are right, people shouldn't be concerned, but many stupid people in Britain think that way. Living in the UK all my life, I've heard complaints about immigration the whole time. About Commonwealth immigration originally and then about EU immigration after 2004.

It has to be said for balance that a lot of British people have no issue with immigration.

ancapailldorcha

mrunsure wrote: »

It is very good to see a unanimous response there. So different to the UK. I suspect the UK would still be in the EU had it not been expanded to central/eastern Europe and I'm almost certain that immigration was the main reason for the Leave vote.

The UK would still be in the EU if there wasn't a recession, the Iraq war, the tuition fees scandal, the MP's expenses scandal, etc... There's an unending list of claims one could make here.

Migration needs to be managed as much as anything else. Successive British governments have chosen not to and instead to simply abandon huge chunks of the country. I think that this is the biggest contributing factor as it began with Thatcherism in the 1980's and continued until the mid-2010's.

paul71

mrunsure wrote: »

It is very good to see a unanimous response there. So different to the UK. I suspect the UK would still be in the EU had it not been expanded to central/eastern Europe and I'm almost certain that immigration was the main reason for the Leave vote.



It dropped dramatically soon after the Leave vote, as EU citizens no longer felt welcome and there were concerns about their ability to continue living in the UK after Brexit.

The central and Eastern Europeans have made Ireland an infinitely better place than it was in the 1980s, as have the largest immigrant community in Ireland, the British.

What saddens me is the failure of society in the UK to embrace those people who went there and also made the UK better and wealthier.