Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

PeadarCo

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

This is the first time in any political or economic negotiations that any country has opted to reverse the process of globalisation and disentangle almost 50 years of international legislation, so by their very nature, the talks are necessarily difficult - it would be like either California or New York deciding to secede from the US in terms of complexity.

I think it's even simpler than that. Trade talks are difficult full stop and normally take years to get done. With Brexit you are trying to get a complex deal in record time with completely unrealistic expectations on the UK side.

mick087

Imreoir2 wrote: »

That's not at all how the EU does trade deals. There are plenty of trade deals that have been going on for years and years without agreement. There are more than a few that were just never completed. Remember TTIP? Where was the last second agreement there?

Your right i know. But with this being the first time a member state leaves i feel it will go to the wire.
Both have to come out good neither can look bad.


I really feel at the last minute its gonna be it was tough it wasn't looking good but we have found a compromise. Because if they don't the alternative is not good for either.
Both know this both must make Sacrifices both must compromise.

Imreoir2

mick087 wrote: »

Did i say that? NO i did not say that.

What i said was to be clear if the Citizens of or any other state wished to leave the EU then they should.

Why have you tried to suggest otherwise?

And if the sky were pink it would be pink...

Hermy

mick087 wrote: »

...both will come out looking better than the other...

Maybe when you've finished naming those experts who say Brexit will be great perhaps you can then explain how the UK will come out of this fiasco looking better than the EU?

ambro25

mick087 wrote: »

(...)

If there is no deal the blame game starts and in reality both sides will be to blame.

Why should a blame game need to start at all?

But if blame there should be, please explain why should the EU shoulder any.

Taking fully into account the EU's longstanding respect for UK's democratic choice to leave it, its fundamentals (four pillars, and consensual single negotiating position and interface) and its Brexit-related publications and notices, if you please.

EDIT: oh, and please do not forget to take into account the EU's concessions to Cameron of February 2016.

It's gas that we're looking at something so much worse than a basic No Deal catastrophe like we were talking about a couple of years ago.

Like there's a WA and trade deal, a WA with no trade deal, no WA or trade deal, and then at the very bottom, we have a WA being reneged on within a year.

mick087

ambro25 wrote: »

Why should a blame game need to start at all?

But if blame there should be, please explain why should the EU shoulder any.

Taking fully into account the EU's longstanding respect for UK's democratic choice to leave it, its fundamentals (four pillars, and consensual single negotiating position and interface) and its Brexit-related publications and notices, if you please.

EDIT: oh, and please do not forget to take into account the EU's concessions to Cameron of February 2016.

They shouldn't and and by whats going on they wont.
Im sure they will say they want what is best for the EU Citizens.

Then by your tone no deal will be done.

Cameron has much to answer for i would not be in his courner at all.

Respect. what is right and wrong will not come into the negotiations. There will be winners and losers no right no wrong.

mick087

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Who do you blame for the state of UK's education system? The conservatives who have been in power for last decade?

Well here in Ireland i wouldn't blame any individual or any particaler party as a whole. Id be looking into why it has failed many. Id be looking of ways to improve it change adapt to suit certain individuals needs.

Mocking someone only serves to gain ones own self imposed ego by belittling someone else.

ancapailldorcha

VinLieger wrote: »

Do I really need to post this again? Must be into double digit figures easily how many times its had to be clearly and concisely explained how trade deals work.

I hadn't actually seen that clip before. The authoritarian in me would make it compulsory viewing.

ambro25

mick087 wrote: »

They shouldn't and and by whats going on they wont.
Im sure they will say they want what is best for the EU Citizens.

Then by your tone no deal will be done.

Cameron has much to answer for i would not be in his courner at all.

Respect. what is right and wrong will not come into the negotiations. There will be winners and losers no right no wrong.

With respect, I don't understand your reply to my post.

Be that as it may, EU citizens (in the UK) and British (in the EU27) have been the most s*** on from a great height, of all; and consistently so over the last 4+ years. So that is one -to my mind the only- aspect of Brexit negotiations, wherein neither side has any right to finger-point the other.

My 'tone', and/or opinion, experiences, situation, etc. is wholly irrelevant to whether a deal will be done or not. FWIW I've always though no deal was the objective, ever since May triggered Art.50 and Cadwalladr shone enough light on CA/Bannon/Banks/Farage & co., and that the Tories would eventually get there by means fair and -especially- foul: that's why I decided to Brexode in summer 2017 and managed to take the whole family/assets/etc. out by early 2018.

I'm more interested in your beliefs/opinion about why the EU(27) should shoulder any blame in case of a no-deal outcome, after perusing the evidence of the last 3+ years (ie once the UK deposited the Art.50 instrument and Brexit negotiations actually started), as you claim to have done.

fash

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's gas that we're looking at something so much worse than a basic No Deal catastrophe like we were talking about a couple of years ago.

Like there's a WA and trade deal, a WA with no trade deal, no WA or trade deal, and then at the very bottom, we have a WA being reneged on within a year.

It's a bit better than an original no deal - in that at least there is a very clear instruction as to what must be done. In the original no deal, there wouldn't even be that.

Enzokk

Here seems to be some more detail on what awaits on Wednesday,

https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1302934667511975936?s=20

Number 3 there seems to be the problem, not sure the EU will take the UK diluting the obligations on State Aid in NI at the whim of ministers. Big fight it seems to be then.

An Ciarraioch

A lengthy interview on French radio with Michel Barnier, in which he sticks to his principles about Ireland, fishing, trade "dumping", and the integrity of the Single Market:

https://www.franceinter.fr/emissions/l-invite-de-8h20-le-grand-entretien/l-invite-de-8h20-le-grand-entretien-07-septembre-2020

mick087

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

You are the one who arrived on the thread, copied and pasted a load of regurgitated cliches/tripe and continue not engage in discussion with multiple posters asking you to expand on your brain dump from earlier on.

I also pointed out that the facility to exit the EU exists in Lisbon Treaty which you might not be aware of. You also continue to avoid questions from posters to expand on your statement that Ireland should leave the EU.

What have i copied and pasted?

Trying to be little people which you did, for not agreeing with you is a not a good way to hold any discussion.

Just because you pointed out something does again not mean i have to agree or its right.

As for the Lisbon treaty well i think my view on that is clearly stated many times on the forum. If you want a discussion on this treaty the right and wrongs of it then i have no issue again.

People should not have to pass yours or anyone's else education standards to have a view opinion on something.

mick087

ambro25 wrote: »

With respect, I don't understand your reply to my post.

Be that as it may, EU citizens (in the UK) and British (in the EU27) have been the most s*** on from a great height, of all; and consistently so over the last 4+ years. So that is one -to my mind the only- aspect of Brexit negotiations, wherein neither side has any right to finger-point the other.

My 'tone', and/or opinion, experiences, situation, etc. is wholly irrelevant to whether a deal will be done or not. FWIW I've always though no deal was the objective, ever since May triggered Art.50 and Cadwalladr shone enough light on CA/Bannon/Banks/Farage & co., and that the Tories would eventually get there by means fair and -especially- foul: that's why I decided to Brexode in summer 2017 and managed to take the whole family/assets/etc. out by early 2018.

I'm more interested in your beliefs/opinion about why the EU(27) should shoulder any blame in case of a no-deal outcome, after perusing the evidence of the last 3+ years (ie once the UK deposited the Art.50 instrument and Brexit negotiations actually started), as you claim to have done.

In negotiations there is no right and no wrong they are normally conducted by very tough individuals.Both sides want what is best for there party.
You can im sure prove how bad the UK was and how for years they have not helped the trade deal move forward. If the EU think this then its a no deal.

IAmTheReign

mick087 wrote: »

What have i copied and pasted?

Trying to be little people which you did, for not agreeing with you is a not a good way to hold any discussion.

Just because you pointed out something does again not mean i have to agree or its right.

As for the Lisbon treaty well i think my view on that is clearly stated many times on the forum. If you want a discussion on this treaty the right and wrongs of it then i have no issue again.

People should not have to pass yours or anyone's else education standards to have a view opinion on something.

I haven't come across you're opinions on the Lisbon Treaty in the past, what are they? Was it a good or a bad thing?

I assume from reading the last few pages of his thread that you are a Brexit supporter, can I ask why? And who are these experts who say it's going to be great for Britain?

Shelga

Boris Johnson's statement on EU negotiations:

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prime-ministers-words-on-eu-negotiations-7-september-2020

Every word of this is such utter rubbish, it is truly incredible to see how far the UK has fallen. "Australian-style deal" = no deal. Is there a single way in which that is better than the current trading arrangement that the UK has with the EU? No, there is not. It is demonstrably and significantly worse.

This is proper, through-the-looking-glass, 1984 stuff. All along, the Brexit cretins were crowing about how it would be the easiest deal in history, the EU will capitulate, rah rah Rule Britannia. Now, it is "I've always said that an Australian-style deal no-deal would be a good outcome for the UK."

"Oceania was at war with Eurasia: therefore Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia."

Leroy42

The first question that any journalist should be asking, but from the coverage I have seen so far none of them are, is why Johnson agreed with the WA in the first place?

it has cost the UK billions or extra EU payments, and now it appears that the UK are going to have break on international agreement just to end back where there were last November.

Has any political leader had to have such an about face and have almost nobody question their ability to stay in the role?

Whatever about the rights and wrongs of Brexit, or even the WA, Johnson agreed to it, ran a GE on the back of, and got every single one of his MPs to vote in through the HoC only 7 or 8 months ago.
\yet now, now he has suddenly realised that actually it is a pretty bad deal and he has no ability to renegoiate it and so will just tear it up.

Imreoir2

Shelga wrote: »

Is there a single way in which that is better than the current trading arrangement that the UK has with the EU? No, there is not. It is demonstrably and significantly worse.

Only if you actually care about peoples lives. Lets not forget that this is a Tory government we are talking about. If you want to increase wealth inequality, undermine workers rights and ensure you and your mates can suck the state dry at the expence of the poor, then no deal has its advantages.

An Ciarraioch

Allowing for the clunkiness of Google Translate, a German MEP's statement on the negotiations:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fbernd-lange.de%2Fmeldungen%2Fwir-lassen-uns-nicht-erpressen

Shelga

Leroy42 wrote: »

The first question that any journalist should be asking, but from the coverage I have seen so far none of them are, is why Johnson agreed with the WA in the first place?

So that he could be PM, and the Tories could get a huge majority in a GE, by selling the crappy agreement as a win. And a large percentage of the UK population gobbled up the rubbish, despite calling it capitulation when Theresa May wanted something similar. Why was the stinking turd of a deal received differently when it was Johnson shoving it down their throats, and not May? Hmmm...

That's not the answer he'll give you though. More like "blah blah our friends and partners blah blah our great nation blah blah blah". Add a few dozen more Eton-accented "blahs" in for the full answer.

mick087

IAmTheReign wrote: »

I haven't come across you're opinions on the Lisbon Treaty in the past, what are they? Was it a good or a bad thing?

I assume from reading the last few pages of his thread that you are a Brexit supporter, can I ask why? And who are these experts who say it's going to be great for Britain?

Lisbon is just bringing up the past and going off topic.

No i was not a fan of Brexit but see why it happened.

Not only do i blame the EU for its its own refusal to change. But I also blame the UK for is own self importance in today's world.

Both was to blame for Brexit as both will be to blame for no deal and both will blame everyone else and wonder how on earth it happened.

So called experts and if experts is your thing then Economists for Brexit are one such group.

Roanmore

mick087 wrote: »

Lisbon is just bringing up the past and going off topic.

No i was not a fan of Brexit but see why it happened.

Not only do i blame the EU for its its own refusal to change. But I also blame the UK for is own self importance in today's world.

Both was to blame for Brexit as both will be to blame for no deal and both will blame everyone else and wonder how on earth it happened.

So called experts and if experts is your thing then Economists for Brexit are one such group.

What would you change?

Economists for Brexit had Patrick Minford as their main guy, he admitted Brexit would probably destroy UK Manufacturing Industry and Agriculture.

mick087

Roanmore wrote: »

What would you change?

Economists for Brexit had Patrick Minford as their main guy, he admitted Brexit would probably destroy UK Manufacturing Industry and Agriculture.

I gone through that many times.



Im not agreeing im saying your always get experts on something.
In reality there are no experts on Brexit its never happened before.

VinLieger

Roanmore wrote: »

What would you change?

Economists for Brexit had Patrick Minford as their main guy, he admitted Brexit would probably destroy UK Manufacturing Industry and Agriculture.

LOL

No no you don't get it they've said they aren't a fan of Brexit but coincidentally all their sources seem to only come from pro-brexit groups..... it doesnt matter what they actually said all that matters is that they tell us about about pro-brexit experts.... but they still deffinitely don't support brexit.....

ambro25

mick087 wrote: »

In negotiations there is no right and no wrong they are normally conducted by very tough individuals.Both sides want what is best for there party.

Alright, and this has been the case for the UK (represented successively by Davis, Robbins and now Frost) and the EU27 (represented by Barnier) over past 3+ years.

mick087 wrote:

You can im sure prove how bad the UK was and how for years they have not helped the trade deal move forward. If the EU think this then its a no deal.

But that is not what 'the EU' thinks (IMHO, informed as it is by local DE, BE, FR & LU daily news). The EU27 is past caring what the UK does, or wants. It still harbours some goodwill, as demonstrated today in its 'whatever about these noises, just wait and see on Wednesday' signalling.

And even if it was 'what the EU thinks', it is still not 'how the EU works' anyway (the EU never leaves the negotiating table first).

So where does that leave your argument about no deal, and apportioning blame for it?

Hermy

Mick, any chance you could be specific about anything that's currently being discussed here?

Seth Brundle

Shelga wrote: »

Boris Johnson's statement on EU negotiations:

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prime-ministers-words-on-eu-negotiations-7-september-2020

Every word of this is such utter rubbish, it is truly incredible to see how far the UK has fallen. "Australian-style deal" = no deal. Is there a single way in which that is better than the current trading arrangement that the UK has with the EU? No, there is not. It is demonstrably and significantly worse.

I note the following...

Johnson wrote:

We will then have a trading arrangement with the EU like Australia’s. I want to be absolutely clear that, as we have said right from the start, that would be a good outcome for the UK.

I'm surprised that even now, they are aspiring to achieve something that will be "good" rather than excellent or marvellous or beneficial or whatever. "Good" is just so vanilla.

Seth Brundle

mick087 wrote: »

Im not agreeing im saying your always get experts on something.
In reality there are no experts on Brexit its never happened before.

There are experts in trade negotiations.
There are experts in economics.
There are experts in good governance.
There are experts in international relations.
There are experts in politics.
There are experts in how the EU works.
There are experts in how the Uk works.
There are experts in so mamy areas that are part of Brexit and none of them think Brexit is a good idea.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: No memes/comedy videos here please. Post deleted.