Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Charles Babbage

road_high wrote: »

So will U.K. based retailers like M&S etc continue as is in Ireland? Granted there’ll be extra form filling at ports but otherwise as you were?
They must have had some touch n go moments re their Irish business- no way they could survive with tariffs

It remains to be seen if they can cope with the form filling requirements for food. Rumours are that the trail runs of these procedures have not been smooth.

Headshot

Im glad there's a deal and im looking forward to actually ready/hearing the ins and out of it.

The EU now need to concentrate on our current members and sort Poland and Hungary out. Get our own house in order

BonnieSituation

hotmail.com wrote: »

Irish people still saying all Brexit was about racism.. just sounds silly at this stage. If that was the case, half of the EU countries would leave the union where racism is far worse than the UK or Ireland.

Brits don't see themselves as Europeans. They never have and never will.

This is such insight.

That you feel the need to play the whataboutery card in here about the clear xenophobic and racist reasons that were to the fore in the Brexit campaign clearly shows that you have trouble with seeing more than one reason for anything. Nuance and shades of grey aren't your friend.

Hurrache

Henig is pretty good and he's of the belief that there's a concerted plan, unsurprisingly, to continue to lie to the British public as to what the deal consists of.

https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1342186586549739520?s=19

Choosehowevr.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

This is such insight.

That you feel the need to play the whataboutery card in here about the clear xenophobic and racist reasons that were to the fore in the Brexit campaign clearly shows that you have trouble with seeing more than one reason for anything. Nuance and shades of grey aren't your friend.

That was their mistake I think

Not too much talk about immigration now

Nody

Nody wrote: »

They got the same integration level as North Korea basically; only difference is NK has to pay tariffs but the controls on goods coming over the border (and related paperwork) is exactly the same. If that's your definition of same benefits as having every single truck and package stopped and checked at the border vs. the truck simply going through without controls, then yes, plenty of winning.

So they will be an independent sovereign nation that has a tariff free trade deal with the EU. Again, exactly what they said they would achieve. Of course there will be border controls, why is this constantly used as some sort of gotcha in Brexit debates. As if any Briton gives a toss that truck drivers have to go through border checks.

Strazdas

Deleted User wrote: »

Them or us?

Less so at our end as we have actually prepared at our end - new infrastructure and hundreds of new customs officers hired.

Also in our case, only GB-Ire trade is impacted, nothing else.

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

So they will be an independent sovereign nation that has a tariff free trade deal with the EU. Again, exactly what they said they would achieve. Of course there will be border controls, why is this constantly used as some sort of gotcha in Brexit debates. As if any Briton gives a toss that truck drivers have to go through border checks.

Unless that Briton is employed in a business dependent on JIT deliveries, or Cert of Origin items, or products requiring SPS inspections. I think they might be concerned if the production line is stopped because of delays caused by inspections.

Or employed in a business that loses customers because of the customs paperwork and clearance agent charges - or the contracts move to other EU based suppliers who can supply with better certainty. For example, Amazon.DE may well become a fulfilment base for sales into Ireland rather than amazon.co.uk is at present.

We will see. It will become apparent in the next few months.

yagan

On the whole it is a huge capitulation, but what else could happen? The best deal was always EU membership, everything else was subpar. As is non EU countries use EU standards trading with eachother, AKA The Brussels Effect.

GB is now a peripheral economy to the EU, and NI is economically united with us via the EU.

I can not see how real anger won't start showing on English streets in the years ahead.

marno21

yagan wrote: »

I can not see how real anger won't start showing on English streets in the years ahead.

And from what I can see Nigel Farage and co are priming themselves ready to exploit this to the max. Which is a depressingly scary thought.

BorneTobyWilde

Nody wrote: »

What ever gave you that idea? EU has been very clear that controls will still be in place to verify the content; it's tariff free, not customs and control free deal that's been struck and no that does not equate freedom of movement of goods. All that means is UK companies don't have to pay tariffs; they will still need to supply all the paperwork at the border in regards to customs, content etc. as any third party country do. I'll steal this one from a previous poster's linked twitter. That means every single car coming in from the UK will need to drive through and declare (or chance it and don't and risk being stopped by customs agents); every truck will need to declare all goods as well before they roll out from the harbor etc.

Must trucks coming in from UK are part loads, 100s of different items for different locations and persons, both private and commercial. Good luck going through all that coming off the boat.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Unless that Briton is employed in a business dependent on JIT deliveries, or Cert of Origin items, or products requiring SPS inspections. I think they might be concerned if the production line is stopped because of delays caused by inspections.

Or employed in a business that loses customers because of the customs paperwork and clearance agent charges - or the contracts move to other EU based suppliers who can supply with better certainty. For example, Amazon.DE may well become a fulfilment base for sales into Ireland rather than amazon.co.uk is at present.

We will see. It will become apparent in the next few months.

Yes exactly, an independent sovereign nation. Exactly what they wanted and on their own terms meaning tarriff free trade with the EU.

10000maniacs

Johnson is selling the deal like his life depends on it. However it's not all its wrapped up to be for the UK.

Sam Russell

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Must trucks coming in from UK are part loads, 100s of different items for different locations and persons, both private and commercial. Good luck going through all that coming off the boat.

An added problem for the truck if it is destined for NI. Not only must the shipments be checked, but goods destined for NI but not likely to enter the SM must be treated differently.

I can see some arguments on that. Of course the default should be all goods are SM destined, unless obviously and conclusively for use solely in NI, like wing component parts for Shorts (or whatever they are called now).

PeadarCo

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Must trucks coming in from UK are part loads, 100s of different items for different locations and persons, both private and commercial. Good luck going through all that coming off the boat.

Welcome to UK companies dealing with companies in the EU in the new year and the many joys of customs controls. Customs if need be will happily hold a truck or container as long as they need to. Its their job. The fact that it's costing businesses time and money is irrelevant. There argument will be you wouldn't have this problem if the paperwork as correct in the first place. Nody a few pages back ran through a few examples. And the issues aren't exaggerated. Customs and all the paperwork that goes with it costs time and money even there is no tarrifs.

breezy1985

hotmail.com wrote: »

Irish people still saying all Brexit was about racism.. just sounds silly at this stage. If that was the case, half of the EU countries would leave the union where racism is far worse than the UK or Ireland.

Brits don't see themselves as Europeans. They never have and never will.

It was about racism. I was living there at the time and the only argument I heard was there was no community any more cause of the foreigners. Attacks on foreigners went way up after the result and people not from the EU were being laughed at on the streets cause they had to go home now.

Every Brexiter I met in London was a xenophobe

Edit: except one guy who was from a fishing town

AutoTuning

It’s more about xenophobia than racism. Not that it’s a flattering improvement on the scale of nasty.

Little Britain (the TV show) summed up the mindset very well with the Local Shop (for Local People).

Unfortunately those are the people who hold sway now. It may change, but it won’t be for several years.

I don't understand peoples obsessions with border checks. Seriously, why would anyone except truck drivers and border workers care?

The reality is Britain will be leading on many fronts and it will be the EU following UK standards and regulations. At most there will be cooperation and bilateral agreements, but at no point will you ever see the UK following EU regulations and standards that they don't want to follow.

fash

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So they will be an independent sovereign nation that has a tariff free trade deal with the EU. Again, exactly what they said they would achieve. Of course there will be border controls, why is this constantly used as some sort of gotcha in Brexit debates. As if any Briton gives a toss that truck drivers have to go through border checks.

Actually they promised all of the same benefits as membership (so covering services and personal rights) including *friction free* (not tariff free) deal.
What I would like to know is whether you are one of the gullible people who have been gaslit into believing something different to what was promised - or are you someone deliberately gaslighting others?

Nody

Deleted User wrote: »

So they will be an independent sovereign nation that has a tariff free trade deal with the EU. Again, exactly what they said they would achieve. Of course there will be border controls, why is this constantly used as some sort of gotcha in Brexit debates. As if any Briton gives a toss that truck drivers have to go through border checks.

How about we walk about by Boris, NI and paperwork that's to be sent to him to be binned? Or how about when UK cars will be stopped for random inspection and told to pay duty? Or maybe we should talk about the trucks stopped in Kent in the last couple of days? The French will close the border again the moment their side gets filled up with trucks with wrong papers and that will be repeated again and again and again. Or how about we simply talk about the yearly 7.5 billion bill that UK companies will have to pay for exporting to EU? Or the annual renegotiation over fishing rights as outlined in February 2020? I mean if you think all Brexit was only about tariffs after leaving UK and that's the "victory" then success I guess; however what was promised was a load more than that from Fishing (failed), access to services (failed), access to Interpol databases (failed), access to the EU GPS system (failed) etc. which were all promised at one time or another.

fly_agaric

road_high wrote: »

So will U.K. based retailers like M&S etc continue as is in Ireland? Granted there’ll be extra form filling at ports but otherwise as you were?
They must have had some touch n go moments re their Irish business- no way they could survive with tariffs

Considering M&S in particular...
The new customs stuff will hurt I'd have thought. It will slow down their supply chain, hit cashflow and make them less competitive vs retailer who is stocking stuff that is sourced within the EU and so does not need to be imported.
So they may not last long term but at least they can either restructure their business or wind down gradually over the coming months and years as opposed to chaos of "no deal" striking them.

Hurrache

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't understand peoples obsessions with border checks. Seriously, why would anyone except truck drivers and border workers care?

The reality is Britain will be leading on many fronts and it will be the EU following UK standards and regulations. At most there will be cooperation and bilateral agreements, but at no point will you ever see the UK following EU regulations and standards that they don't want to follow.

10/10 for effort, 0 for reality though.

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't understand peoples obsessions with border checks. Seriously, why would anyone except truck drivers and border workers care?
.

I cannot believe someone in Ireland posted that nonsense, do you not have a shred of self awareness?

fash

fash wrote: »

Actually they promised all of the same benefits as membership (so covering services and personal rights) including *friction free* (not tariff free) deal.
What I would like to know is whether you are one of the gullible people who have been gaslit into believing something different to what was promised - or are you someone deliberately gaslighting others?

I'm aware there were lots of empty promises not fulfilled. But at the end of the day they have become a separate nation with unprecedented access to the EU market. Border checks, new forms to fill in etc is obviously part of being a separate nation, nobody has ever thought otherwise. The amount of red tape or "friction" if you are talking in the context of "friction free" access to the EU market will be resolved, mostly through IT solutions, over the coming years. Until then its a fairly insignificant point to be arguing over.

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't understand peoples obsessions with border checks. Seriously, why would anyone except truck drivers and border workers care?

The reality is Britain will be leading on many fronts and it will be the EU following UK standards and regulations. At most there will be cooperation and bilateral agreements, but at no point will you ever see the UK following EU regulations and standards that they don't want to follow.

Enough of this.

Just enough.

It's Christmas Eve. Go pat a cat and Stop with the propaganda.


You don't set global standards with a market cap of 70 million and no real trade agreements. You take regs and you take them from the global standards setters the EU. Everyone follows the EU.


The end.



Happy Christmas.

suicide_circus

Headshot wrote: »

Im glad there's a deal and im looking forward to actually ready/hearing the ins and out of it.

The EU now need to concentrate on our current members and sort Poland and Hungary out. Get our own house in order

I dont think "sorting out" Poland and Hungary will be all that easy. They've already been told to get in line and they've leant into their position. Ireland bends the knee and doffs the cap instinctively but others have more confidence in their culture.

Capt'n Midnight

VinLieger wrote: »

Wave the flag harder!!!! "RULE BRITTANIA....."

Cod save the Queen !


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/24/from-tariffs-to-visas-heres-whats-in-the-brexit-deal

A quarter of the EU’s catch by value – €162.5m a year – will be “repatriated” to UK-flagged vessels by the end of that period. After that, the two sides will hold annual negotiations.

UK-flagged vessels, like the 16-foot (5 meters) dinghy Nina May, tied up in Exmouth Harbour, which is apparently able to catch 1,500 tonnes of fish almost a fifth of the entire fishing quota for south west England, although it rarely puts to sea.

picture here
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/how-one-dinghy-has-the-rights-to-catch-1500-tonnes-of-fish/

CelticRambler

To a certain extent, one could say that Johnson has got his victory: judging by the number of new contributors to this thread today who have either been wholly taken in by the spin, or who are acting as Brexiter amplifiers, all on the basis of ... ... ... well, nothing really.

Is there anyone here who's yet read the detail of the agreement? Is there anyone who's even started reading the published detail? Based on the complete lack of precise examples of how this deal is a Good Deal for the UK so far offered by our new-found "friends" on this thread, the Brexit Bot Army is probably the only group still doing any work this Christmas Eve.

So we're back to trudging through that same old nonsense we experienced after the referendum result was announced, and when Article 50 was triggered: nobody can identify a single real benefit of this deal. Tariff-free trade? Ye had that already; freedom to write your own laws? Ye had that already, too. Freedom to create new clusters of innovation and investment? Same as every other country in the EU. Control of immigration? Yeah, good luck with that, seeing as ye never bothered before ...

From the little info that's become available, the EU appears to have secured tariff-free, quota-free access to the UK market for stuff that we do sell to them in exchange for a small quantity of fish. That's a good deal. The UK has secured tariff-free, quota-free access to the EU for stuff they don't really sell a lot of, on condition that they follow our rules, no questions asked, and on condition they don't try anything silly with respect to other trading blocs.

Nody

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm aware there were lots of empty promises not fulfilled. But at the end of the day they have become a separate nation with unprecedented access to the EU market.

UK has the exact same access as North Korea or pretty much any other nation in the world; they have zero unprecedented access to the EU market. They got the same or LESS access than any other country in the world (less because other countries have FTAs that include certification alignment etc. in country which UK does not). Any country in the world can export to the single market; literally speaking ANY country. UK is not unique or have a special deal or anything else here that you seem to think it is.

Border checks, new forms to fill in etc is obviously part of being a separate nation, nobody has ever thought otherwise. The amount of red tape or "friction" if you are talking in the context of "friction free" access to the EU market will be resolved, mostly through IT solutions, over the coming years. Until then its a fairly insignificant point to be arguing over.

Once again; we've been through this before and sorry but you are so hilariously wrong it's not even funny. No, there will NOT be an IT solution in place to fix them; Switzerland has been in this situation for over 40 years and still don't have an IT solution in place nor will UK. The problem of the "red tape" and "friction" is not going away it will remain there and cost as linked above an approximate 7.5 billion a year in additional cost. And that's before UK starts to want to diverge from EU regulation; when they start to diverge the sampling and controls goes up even further than what will be in place on day 1. This was stated years ago as well before Brexit; the trade deal is not about tariffs; it's about the controls required to get your product into the market. This is the ball you, Boris and the rest of the Brexiteers still don't get, but don't worry you'll get a very direct lesson in Kent on the topic. Consider the Corona hold up an example of what's to come; except there's not a quick solution to it this time.

fly_agaric

Am surprised but pleased there's finally been an agreement.
The time wasting and games by the UK to drag the arse out of it till the last possible moment are infuriating and anti democratic. But I suppose we all know the form of this UK government, Boris will just praise it from the rooftops now (whatever the substance) & can force it through in the UK with his majority. I assume now there's no chance at all for the EU parliament to review & vote on it before Jan 1st either thanks to all the UKs nonsense.
So can it be implemented immediately or will there be a short "no deal" period?