Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

BorneTobyWilde

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

I think the deal is good for Ireland in so far as there's no awful crash out- we can continue to trade away in monetary terms as we did with the UK and continue a trajectory we've been on for a long time- moving away from the UK market as our once main export/import market.
The extra paperwork and customs will be a pain in the arse- but at least it buys time with no tariff burden to either develop new markets or new import partners outside the UK as suppliers see fit.
If the paperwork becomes too much of an issue for the UK side I can see them coming back for concessions and restoration of ease of access but that will be up to them and there will be a price of course. Extra bureaucracy never adds value to a chain only cost and time which makes things less competitive - that might be a hard lesson for the UK but not our problem.

I'd shop Ebay Germany rather than Ebay Uk . I think trade will be hit very hard when it comes on online shopping .

Imreoir2

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Trust me with 1000 trucks held up they'd care.

Yes, that is why the UK is busy turning moterways into carparks.

Mr.Nice Guy

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1342191514261323779

Not a fan of this government but I welcome the news that students north of the border will be able to avail of the Erasmus programme.

Ultimately, as regards Brexit, things could have turned out a lot worse. I think it will take time for the full ramifications of it to be felt.

maebee

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1342191514261323779

Not a fan of this government but I welcome the news that students north of the border will be able to avail of the Erasmus programme.

Ultimately, as regards Brexit, things could have turned out a lot worse. I think it will take time for the full ramifications of it to be felt.

Arlene won't like it but Brexit is bringing NI closer to us.

Wolf359f

landofthetree wrote: »

Sobering for EU producers as their low quality perishable food have no customers.

Who will buy their horse burgers?

Or their E-coli cheese?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.france24.com/en/20190430-french-cheese-recalled-germany-over-ecoli-scare

Or German meats full of listeria?

https://www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/contaminated-meat-scandal-exposes-germanys-food-safety-flaws/

Maybe those who enjoy mad cow beef?
Only took 20 years for the Americans to trust British beef after that!

Wolf359f

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, no customs declaration, then it gets sent back, or you will be asked to fill in a declaration, or it will be binned. At the end of the day, the customs officer will assess its value.

Ebay - UK will be advising their users of the rules.

A lot of ebay.co.uk sellers will not send to Ireland at he moment, it will become most very soon.

By the way, VAT will be charged (and collected) on all values from next July.

If you're buying from a VAT registered business in the UK, they won't be charging UK VAT. So technically you would buy it cheaper than a UK customer. But obviously liable for Irish VAT when it lands. 20% vs 21% would be minimal, but of course there will be a collection charge which will cost the end Irish consumer more.

Some UK marketplaces will charge/offer to collect the Irish VAT due and pass it on to revenue (obviously taking a small charge), but could make Irish customs side a little quicker to pass through, if it's Duty (or VAT) paid.

BonnieSituation

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So they will be an independent sovereign nation that has a tariff free trade deal with the EU. Again, exactly what they said they would achieve. Of course there will be border controls, why is this constantly used as some sort of gotcha in Brexit debates. As if any Briton gives a toss that truck drivers have to go through border checks.

Those delays ain't free though. How can you not see this!

road_high

The likes of Amazon really need a local office and base from here- lazy inertia has partly kept us an adjunct to the U.K. (that and we are so small and culturally similar)- but what if anything is that they sell that is manufactured in the U.K. that cannot be substituted from the continent? If there’s going to be VAT charged on top of U.K. VAT then it’s an utter waste of time come January 1st. Being part of the largest common market in the world this isn’t a necessary outcome.
But the solution is obvious- an IE website linked to the major EU ones with much sharpened delivery costs. And a warehouse here to support.
For far too long in my opinion we’ve ignored almost the continent and should be trading far more back and forth.

BonnieSituation

AutoTuning wrote: »

It’s more about xenophobia than racism. Not that it’s a flattering improvement on the scale of nasty.

Little Britain (the TV show) summed up the mindset very well with the Local Shop (for Local People).

Unfortunately those are the people who hold sway now. It may change, but it won’t be for several years.

That was League of Gentlemen. But point still valid.

Anyway, they're gone. Phew.

Wolf359f

road_high wrote: »

The likes of Amazon really need a local office and base from here- lazy inertia has partly kept us an adjunct to the U.K. (that and we are so small and culturally similar)- but what if anything is that they sell that is manufactured in the U.K. that cannot be substituted from the continent? If there’s going to be VAT charged on top of U.K. VAT then it’s an utter waste of time come January 1st. Being part of the largest common market in the world this isn’t a necessary outcome.
But the solution is obvious- an IE website linked to the major EU ones with much sharpened delivery costs. And a warehouse here to support.
For far too long in my opinion we’ve ignored almost the continent and should be trading far more back and forth.

They won't or can't charge VAT on exports. Same way an American customer ordering from an Irish business wouldn't or shouldn't be charged Irish VAT.

road_high

Wolf359f wrote: »

If you're buying from a VAT registered business in the UK, they won't be charging UK VAT. So technically you would buy it cheaper than a UK customer. But obviously liable for Irish VAT when it lands. 20% vs 21% would be minimal, but of course there will be a collection charge which will cost the end Irish consumer more.

Some UK marketplaces will charge/offer to collect the Irish VAT due and pass it on to revenue (obviously taking a small charge), but could make Irish customs side a little quicker to pass through, if it's Duty (or VAT) paid.

Right so it’s not my necessary to pay U.K. vat as well so long as they are set up at their end for VAT and appropriate process in place?
If we just have to pay Irish VAT that would be fine.

BonnieSituation

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't understand peoples obsessions with border checks. Seriously, why would anyone except truck drivers and border workers care?

The reality is Britain will be leading on many fronts and it will be the EU following UK standards and regulations. At most there will be cooperation and bilateral agreements, but at no point will you ever see the UK following EU regulations and standards that they don't want to follow.

Cos border checks mean more time and more cost with every shipment.
They also mean that the shipments become more homogeneous, so choice decreases over time.

Essentially, choice, that favourite buxzzowrd of laissez-faire capitalists and Brexiters is reduced and the limited fare is more expensive.

I mean, they'll notice it eventually. But as Malcolm Tucker said, NOMFUP... Not my f**king problem!

Wolf359f

road_high wrote: »

Right so it’s not my necessary to pay U.K. vat as well so long as they are set up at their end for VAT and appropriate process in place?
If we just have to pay Irish VAT that would be fine.

You shouldn't have to pay the UK VAT as it's classed as an export. If you're buying from a person, then you will get hit with Irish VAT and they would be selling it to you including UK VAT as they wouldn't be able to claim it back.
It mainly affects buying products second hand from people etc...

Even still, there will be processing fees for collecting VAT, so the end price will increase and also the time to delivery. It's still a total inconvenience to people.

Ignoring VRT, i'm not sure how the used car market will do. Flying to the UK to buy a second hand car privately, technically will incur VAT when landing in Ireland.

Wolf359f

Wolf359f wrote: »

You shouldn't have to pay the UK VAT as it's classed as an export. If you're buying from a person, then you will get hit with Irish VAT and they would be selling it to you including UK VAT as they wouldn't be able to claim it back.
It mainly affects buying products second hand from people etc...

Even still, there will be processing fees for collecting VAT, so the end price will increase and also the time to delivery. It's still a total inconvenience to people.

Ignoring VRT, i'm not sure how the used car market will do. Flying to the UK to buy a second hand car privately, technically will incur VAT when landing in Ireland.

Government are going to have to look at VRT again they can't be charging Value Added Tax and Vehicle Registration Tax as well. It will make the price of importing a car crazy.

Seth Brundle

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Government are going to have to look at VRT again they can't be charging Value Added Tax and Vehicle Registration Tax as well. It will make the price of importing a car crazy.

In essence, that's not their problem!

Anyhow, I'm curious to know if importing a second hand vehicle from the UK, is VAT liable given that VAT was already paid within an EU country, when new?

Wolf359f

Deleted User wrote: »

Government are going to have to look at VRT again they can't be charging Value Added Tax and Vehicle Registration Tax as well. It will make the price of importing a car crazy.

Tis no different than importing a car from the US, you pay VAT & VRT (Import duty also, but that's not paid from a Uk import, the benefit of the FTA post Brexit with the UK)
The price of importing a car from within the EU won't change at all. Importing from the UK, being outside the EU will change obviously.

Wolf359f

Seth Brundle wrote: »

In essence, that's not their problem!

Anyhow, I'm curious to know if importing a second hand vehicle from the UK, is VAT liable given that VAT was already paid within an EU country, when new?

There are provisions under law (I assume EU law) specifically for the motor trade in relation to dealers buying/taking in trade in's on used cars from the public.
A car that can be sold privately for 10k, person to person, if that person sold/traded the car to the dealer for 10k, and the dealer decided to sell it on at cost to a private seller, they would need to charge 12.1k (VAT inclusive). So it's not economical, so there are provisions in there specific to the motor trade to recoup VAT from private sellers (probably similar with other industries, but the motor trade would be more common)

10000maniacs

Both the BBC and Sky are using the word "sovereignty" to describe the deal.
"This is how sovereignty feels" is the Sky soundbite headline tonight.
When was the UK not sovereign?

amacca

10000maniacs wrote: »

Both the BBC and Sky are using the word "sovereignty" to describe the deal.
"This is how sovereignty feels" is the Sky soundbite headline tonight.
When was the UK not sovereign?

The more I listen to the media today (in this country too) the more I hold them in contempt.

AutoTuning

The remarkable bit about this is they’ve managed to negotiate a trade deal, based entirely on concerns about goods like fish, when 80% of their economic output is services and they didn't even touch those in the deal.

"Boris and the Magic Beanstalk"

The most important thing is the tabloids are now fully satisfied and have stonking good headlines and everyone can celebrate with good old British fish and chips. Who cares about a few banks!?

BonnieSituation

CelticRambler wrote: »

To a certain extent, one could say that Johnson has got his victory: judging by the number of new contributors to this thread today who have either been wholly taken in by the spin, or who are acting as Brexiter amplifiers, all on the basis of ... ... ... well, nothing really.

Is there anyone here who's yet read the detail of the agreement? Is there anyone who's even started reading the published detail? Based on the complete lack of precise examples of how this deal is a Good Deal for the UK so far offered by our new-found "friends" on this thread, the Brexit Bot Army is probably the only group still doing any work this Christmas Eve.

So we're back to trudging through that same old nonsense we experienced after the referendum result was announced, and when Article 50 was triggered: nobody can identify a single real benefit of this deal. Tariff-free trade? Ye had that already; freedom to write your own laws? Ye had that already, too. Freedom to create new clusters of innovation and investment? Same as every other country in the EU. Control of immigration? Yeah, good luck with that, seeing as ye never bothered before ...

From the little info that's become available, the EU appears to have secured tariff-free, quota-free access to the UK market for stuff that we do sell to them in exchange for a small quantity of fish. That's a good deal. The UK has secured tariff-free, quota-free access to the EU for stuff they don't really sell a lot of, on condition that they follow our rules, no questions asked, and on condition they don't try anything silly with respect to other trading blocs.

Nody wrote: »

UK has the exact same access as North Korea or pretty much any other nation in the world; they have zero unprecedented access to the EU market. They got the same or LESS access than any other country in the world (less because other countries have FTAs that include certification alignment etc. in country which UK does not). Any country in the world can export to the single market; literally speaking ANY country. UK is not unique or have a special deal or anything else here that you seem to think it is.

Once again; we've been through this before and sorry but you are so hilariously wrong it's not even funny. No, there will NOT be an IT solution in place to fix them; Switzerland has been in this situation for over 40 years and still don't have an IT solution in place nor will UK. The problem of the "red tape" and "friction" is not going away it will remain there and cost as linked above an approximate 7.5 billion a year in additional cost. And that's before UK starts to want to diverge from EU regulation; when they start to diverge the sampling and controls goes up even further than what will be in place on day 1. This was stated years ago as well before Brexit; the trade deal is not about tariffs; it's about the controls required to get your product into the market. This is the ball you, Boris and the rest of the Brexiteers still don't get, but don't worry you'll get a very direct lesson in Kent on the topic. Consider the Corona hold up an example of what's to come; except there's not a quick solution to it this time.

That these two posts came one after the other is no surprise.
That they were posted by who they were posted by is also no surprise.

Though, I'm sure Peregrinus could flesh it out, eh? :P

That they outline in such succinct detail how the chorus of Brexiter bleating is merely a cacophony of kazoos is just the icing on the cake.

I'm not green around the 'gills' when it comes to politics, but when you read down through posts of such quality, knowledge and exasperation, well, it washes over you like a cathartic rain after ploughing through the weird and wonderful Irish-based Brexiter 'talking points'.

Here's to thread XIV taking as long as Switzerland's application....

Happy Christmas all!

BonnieSituation

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well I used the term 'Widget' to mean



It is a term used in Management training to mean a fictitious product. The term has obviously leaked out to become something real - well sort of real - app buttons.

I doubt it is a British invention - but anyway - it is a nothing term, but you can have it if you like.

I think that Rob might mean the nitrogen filled plastic ball that gives a can of Guinness Draught its head and body as exemplified by this wonderful 90s ad for John Smith's:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsiWQ4xm5-Q

As an aside, I remember this ad vividly, that it's from 1993 has completely thrown me!

Atlantic Dawn

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

The deal is great for Ireland!
* fishermen can continue fish uk waters

With a 25% reduction in value of quota caught in UK waters for the next 5.5 years at which time the UK can decide to completely remove all EU access after a period of 3 months. Terrible deal for fishermen in Ireland.

Lucifer

To the poster who was talking about buying something from ebay. It will be the same as when buying from anywhere outside the EU.

If the value is properly declared and revenue believe the value is accurate you will recieve it with a sticker on it with the amount owed for An Post to collect on delivery, along with a €10 fee for doing so.

If they dont believe the value, or it isnt declared they will contact you.

I bought a tablet a few years ago, and the chinese seller under declared the value to be below the threshold. Revenue contacted me for proof of purchase to see what the real value was and I had to provide proof of payment and they were able to work out the amount owed. They will then email you with how much to expect to pay when An Post arrive with the package.


https://www.revenue.ie/en/customs-traders-and-agents/documents/guide-to-importing-goods-through-the-post.pdf

Incomplete Declarations or undeclared goods
If you have omitted information from your customs declaration forms this can lead to
delays in receiving your package. In such cases it will need to be opened to establish if
the goods are liable to import duties. Generally, Revenue will write to the addressee
requesting a copy of the purchase invoice for the goods. Where this is not available
you can provide a pay-pal receipt or a print-out from the internet detailing how much
the goods cost. If a reply is not received within 14 days’ the package may be returned
to the sender.
An incorrect or false declaration may lead to seizure of your package. Therefore, it is
important that you inform the sender of the necessity to complete the declaration
accurately with all the necessary information.




Here is a an email from the tablet a few years ago (the charge was €6 back then) EDIT (yes it was a very cheap tablet a friend asked me to order for his child!)



Thank you for your eMail. Customs Charges are due on your package. The charges and the expected delivery date are set out below. The charges can be paid to the postperson on delivery by cash (exact amount) or cheque/postal order made payable to “An Post”. If you are not in when An Post call, they will leave a note in your letterbox advising where to collect your parcel and pay the charges. Any queries or questions relating to the delivery of your package should be directed to An Post Customer Service at 1850 575859 (customer.services@anpost.ie) quoting your Track and Trace number.



Total Value of Goods - € 32.85



Customs Duty - € 0.00

VAT @ 23% - € 7.55

An Post Fee - € 6.00

Total for Collection - € 13.55



Expected Delivery Date - Fri, 25 Jul 2014



Regards



REMOVED NAME

Customs Officer, Dublin Mail Centre

fash

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

With a 25% reduction in value of quota caught in UK waters for the next 5.5 years at which time the UK can decide to completely remove all EU access after a period of 3 months. Terrible deal for fishermen in Ireland.

Let's not forget: those are UK waters and this is merely a free trade agreement. Considering the alternative (nothing), that this was the Uk's strongest point, one which was particularly sensitive to then to allow them to claim victory the fact that the EU did everything it could - threatening the rest of the deal to get it (nothing is agreed until everything agreed) - they got about as good as was ever possible.

RobMc59

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well I used the term 'Widget' to mean



It is a term used in Management training to mean a fictitious product. The term has obviously leaked out to become something real - well sort of real - app buttons.

I doubt it is a British invention - but anyway - it is a nothing term, but you can have it if you like.

Apologies Sam,I misunderstood the meaning of widget.

Wizard!

Can someone please explain like I am 5, what that means?

Tariff-free and quota-free access to one of the world’s biggest markets is the backbone of the Brexit deal and goes beyond the EU’s deals with Canada or Japan.

looksee

Just on the topic of importing from the UK, I recently purchased an item from Screwfix Ireland - there was no indication that I was purchasing from the UK, and a previous purchase from them apparently came from Ireland. The delivery notification told me it was coming from the UK and it took 2 weeks to do so. So what happens in future? I think I am ordering locally and discover I am caught in the whole customs/regulations thing? Do they have any obligation to say where goods are coming from?

fash

Wizard! wrote: »

Can someone please explain like I am 5, what that means?

The Canada and Japan FTAs retain some tariffs (something like 98% tariff free). That couldn't be done with the UK in the time available (1 year versus 10 to go through line by line tens of thousands of lines of tariffs and quotas - and to understand what your own stakeholders would accept/sacrifice) - there had to be an "all or nothing" approach. Consequently UK has signed up to the toughest level playing field restrictions in any FTA in history I believe.

Jizique

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

With a 25% reduction in value of quota caught in UK waters for the next 5.5 years at which time the UK can decide to completely remove all EU access after a period of 3 months. Terrible deal for fishermen in Ireland.

Any idea if UK boats retain access to EU waters?