Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Padre_Pio

Deshawn wrote: »

50,000 long term stable tax paying jobs created you mean?

The UK may now make trade deals with individual countries that were not possible when in the EU

50,000 extra public servants that will be paid from the tax base you mean? Or paid by hauliers who, in turn pass these expenses onto customers and consumers.

What individual countries can Britain do deals with that weren't covered by the EU?
How many fantastically better deals have they done in the last 4 years?

Deshawn wrote: »

Look I don't know for sure as I obviously haven't read the agreement but I can smell the bias in the air from some. This is an Irish forum and we are talking about the UK .If there are two things we can be sure of it's that lots of Irish people don't like the British and that Irish people in general love the EU.

Too soon to tell the effects though

my issue is that everybody promoting Brexit has been using the line "yes, things are bad now, but they'll be better next week/month/year". Every concern was written off as Project Fear. The Brexit goalposts shift almost daily. What was voted for in 2016 is nothing like what is on the table today.

The lies, bluster and incompetence is largely ignored by Brexiteers
I laugh now at people supporting Boris "He said he'd get Brexit done and he did" when no one has a clue what Brexit even is

Imreoir2

Deshawn wrote: »

50,000 long term stable tax paying jobs created you mean?

The UK may now make trade deals with individual countries that were not possible when in the EU

What not hire millions of them then?

Good luck to the UK, a market of 60 million, trying to get a better trade deal with anyone than the EU, a market of 450 million. The UK are not going to fare well.

Dr Cockhound

looksee wrote: »

The first error in your post is talking about Brit haters saying it is a disaster for the UK. They are not on the whole Brit haters, but Brexit haters, and that is a rational enough stance - the whole event was undemocratic and based on lies.

I have been reading more than posting, but I am entirely on the side of the Brexit 'haters' - and I am a Brit. Long left the UK, granted, but nontheless it is my background, and I am utterly and totally disgusted at the brainlessness that has resulted in this stupid situation.

Discuss Brexit certainly, have your opinions and make your arguments, but stop with the 'Brit haters', it is just not true.

I've been lurking here for the past ten years and must most respectfully, disagree with your opinion.


Having read all of the Brexit posts in the many thread incarnations, I personally feel there's a clear hate for the English, proudly nurtured and displayed by more than a handful of posters for whom, nothing less than the economic destruction of England and the personal destitution of her people would be an acceptable outcome.


It's frankly disappointing and more than a little disturbing.

Imreoir2

Padre_Pio wrote: »

50,000 extra public servants that will be paid from the tax base you mean? Or paid by hauliers who, in turn pass these expenses onto customers and consumers.

What individual countries can Britain do deals with that weren't covered by the EU?
How many fantastically better deals have they done in the last 4 years?

To be fair, the UK has only had a year to do new trade deals as they were not permitted to do trade deals while still members of the EU. Not that this should have been much of a set back, the Brexiters promised that the day after the referendum result they would be setting off around the world shakeing things up and getting great deals ready for Britain. In the years since though, they have managed to get zero deals that are substantively better than the EU has, where they have managed to get a deal at all.

Capt'n Midnight

Gerry T wrote: »

The UK needs 50,000 additional customs officials. The annual cost for that is more than the 7.5b (you forgot to include the 1.5b paid direct to UK business such as research grants, not normally listed in uk gov figures as uk.gov dont receive this money.). That doesnt include all the other costs, like setting up the 40 odd EU agencies the uk uses, such as eurathom erc...

Yes the UK has the choice of rubber stamping EU standards or replicating them.


And pay for all the vets.

And NHS staff

And £5Bn to replace Galileo , but they stayed in ESA because they get their money back building satellites.

But there's loss of other EU contracts and grants and funding.

Deshawn

Imreoir2 wrote: »

What not hire millions of them then?

Good luck to the UK, a market of 60 million, trying to get a better trade deal with anyone than the EU, a market of 450 million. The UK are not going to fare well.

They have a trade deal with the EU. They are also working on rolling over the deal with 70 countries who the EU also have a deal with. Mexico is the latest to be agreed. They have also a signed free trade deal with Japan and are currently under negotiation with the United States (worlds biggest economy) Australia and New Zealand. The EU don't have a free trade deal with those 3 and are actually engaged in a trade war with the Us.

So to summarize the UK keep the EU trade deal which involves 70 countries and are adding more. The United States could be a huge one.

Whether these deals come to fruition is a different story but wouldn't have been possible while an EU member.

sam1986uk

Dr Cockhound wrote: »

I've been lurking here for the past ten years and must most respectfully, disagree with your opinion.


Having read all of the Brexit posts in the many thread incarnations, I personally feel there's a clear hate for the English, proudly nurtured and displayed by more than a handful of posters for whom, nothing less than the economic destruction of England and the personal destitution of her people would be an acceptable outcome.


It's frankly disappointing and more than a little disturbing.

Only the Irish in Ireland hate the English.

The Irish that have found work and been given an opportunity to build a life in England conveniently find the English and England quite alright

Dr Cockhound

Deshawn above, touches upon the future economic direction of the UK.
In simple terms, if the deal between the EU and UK is as dire as some here are predicting, the value of UK trade will by necessity diminish between the EU and UK but increase between other nations.
Thus the economic implosion and destruction of the UK is neither assured, nor would it be beneficial for the EU.

Deshawn

Dr Cockhound wrote: »

Deshawn above, touches upon the future economic direction of the UK.
In simple terms, if the deal between the EU and UK is as dire as some here are predicting, the value of UK trade will by necessity diminish between the EU and UK but increase between other nations.
Thus the economic implosion and destruction of the UK is neither assured, nor would it be beneficial for the EU.

The GDP of the EU is 15 trillion while the GDP of the Us is 20 trillion. The UK is situated in the middle and potentially has access to both. I don't see how that is a bad position

Dr Cockhound

sam1986uk wrote: »

Only the Irish in Ireland hate the English.

The Irish that have found work and been given an opportunity to build a life in England conveniently find the English and England quite alright

Many thanks for the reply.


I'm first generation English of Irish parents and frankly I'd never seen such animosity towards the English outside of the frankly rabid utterings of some within the SNP.


I've never come across such reciprocal hate in the UK for the Irish and frankly think that some of the attitudes displayed here, remain at great odds with the hospitable reputation of the Irish enjoyed in the UK and across the world.

Imreoir2

Deshawn wrote: »

They have a trade deal with the EU. They are also working on rolling over the deal with 70 countries who the EU also have a deal with. Mexico is the latest to be agreed. They have also a signed free trade deal with Japan and are currently under negotiation with the United States (worlds biggest economy) Australia and New Zealand. The EU don't have a free trade deal with those 3 and are actually engaged in a trade war with the Us.

So to summarize the UK keep the EU trade deal which involves 70 countries and are adding more. The United States could be a huge one.

Whether these deals come to fruition is a different story but wouldn't have been possible while an EU member.

The UK has done a thin trade deal with the EU which is much worse for the UK than existing circumstances, which focuses on those areas that are important for the EU (trade in goods) and not for the UK (trade in services).

The UK has not managed to roll over all of the deals that it had access too as a member of the EU, and has not improved on any of the trade deals it had access to.

The EU is also involved in trade negotiations with the partners you mentioned, and several of them have stated that the EU is their prioriety ahead of the UK, such as Australia.

Capt'n Midnight

Deshawn wrote: »

The GDP of the EU is 15 trillion while the GDP of the Us is 20 trillion. The UK is situated in the middle and potentially has access to both. I don't see how that is a bad position

It could be argued that the EU has more access to the UK than visa versa.

The UK still doesn't have a trade deal with the US. And the Special Relationship hasn't been much use in the negotiations with the EU.

Quite the reverse when both the EU and US told the UK that changing the agreement on NI was completely off the table.

Strazdas

sam1986uk wrote: »

Only the Irish in Ireland hate the English.

The Irish that have found work and been given an opportunity to build a life in England conveniently find the English and England quite alright

There is a huge difference between right wing English nationalists (who genuinely are a loathsome bunch) and ordinary decent English people.

I would go as far to say that many of the posters here are probably Anglophiles. Why do you think they are here commenting regularly on UK politics and are knowledgeable on the subject? Genuine haters of England and English people wouldn't even be posting in such a thread (and would know very little about British politics).

Dr Cockhound

It's very easy to become fixated on this one moment in time, whereas what plays out in the future, is where the bigger picture lies.
Some would argue that the future doesn't lie with the EU or US.


There were detractors within the UK who made little of the fiscal value of the trade deal, rolled over between Japan and the UK.
The ultimate higher stakes are within Japan's willing sponsorship of the UK application to join the Trans-Pacific Partnership.


This is quite an interesting opinion on the subject.

AutoTuning

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

I’ve been a long time lurker on here and it’s been funny to read both sides, you’ve got the real Brit haters who keep saying it’s a disaster for the U.K. and they’re stuck and lost and all that, then the ones that don’t hate the Brits saying that they’re won X and got Y.....

Absolutely no one here knows what has benefited either side to the extent that in 5 or 10 years time where either side will be.

The U.K. have negotiated roll over deals with various countries at the same levels as they had with the EU, this seems like a win for now to me seeing as these deals are sold as the best any EU27 can get as it’s based on the whole. The Japan deal I believe also included some financial services.

There have been promising signals from 4 of the members of RCEP which is now the largest trading bloc in the world.

The EU have maintained the fishing rights bar a small percentage loss for the next 5 years and ensured the sanctity of the single market.

The U.K. have small extensions on most of the financial services parts but the EU have full control on whether they offer equivalence, albeit I read that this loss would only account for around 20% of U.K. financial services?

Appreciate this is only a few areas of a couple thousand pages of legal jargon but I don’t see a cut and dry winner myself but we can only wait and see.

Will be interesting to see who ends up right.

The problem is there isn't a winner or a loser in this. The reality is that the way the UK has gone about leaving has caused massive uncertainty, economic disruption and trade frictions and those mean we are all losers. The UK, the EU and probably the global economy too.

Continuing to ram this through in the midst of a pandemic and what could yet turn into an unprecedented global economic crisis was also, in my opinion, beyond irresponsible for any government.

It's one thing to take huge public policy decisions in an open and honest way, presenting all the facts. This absolutely is not what happened with Brexit.

I don't think history will be kind to those who drove this.

Padre_Pio

Dr Cockhound wrote: »

Many thanks for the reply.


I'm first generation English of Irish parents and frankly I'd never seen such animosity towards the English outside of the frankly rabid utterings of some within the SNP.


I've never come across such reciprocal hate in the UK for the Irish and frankly think that some of the attitudes displayed here, remain at great odds with the hospitable reputation of the Irish enjoyed in the UK and across the world.

I don't have England or the English.

I do hate narrow minded liars who are entrenched in views that are demonstrably wrong and based on racism and a notion of English supremacy and exceptionalism.

I hate the double speak, the incompetence and the blind leading the blind approach that has damaged the UK and the EU for the past 4 years. How is it after 4 years, the British people and government still can't point out the benefit of Brexit beyond fishing and some notion of sovereignty?
How do people have no clue what harm WTO would do to their country? Why is the same talking points brought up year after year?

No one can stand up with a straight face and say Brexit was a success so far, and the ideals that people voted for have been realised.

No one can stand up and say that the future is bright for Britain (can't say the UK since NI hasn't really left the EU).

Deshawn

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I don't have England or the English.

I do hate narrow minded liars who are entrenched in views that are demonstrably wrong and based on racism and a notion of English supremacy and exceptionalism.

I hate the double speak, the incompetence and the blind leading the blind approach that has damaged the UK and the EU for the past 4 years.

No one can stand up with a straight face and say Brexit was a success so far, and the ideals that people voted for have been realised.

No one can stand up and say that the future is bright for Britain (can't say the UK since NI hasn't really left the EU).

Explain this "English supremacy and exceptionalism" that you are referring to?
Don't the UK have the right to leave the EU and run their own country as they see fit?

I'm sorry but it just reeks of sour grapes

54and56

sam1986uk wrote: »

Only the Irish in Ireland hate the English.

I have to respectfully disagree.

I'm one of the people you speak of. I went to London in the 90's, got a career going and love the city, love the people and love English towns and villages with their cricket teams, warm beer, cloudy cider and genuine hospitality.

I'm an Anglophile who laments the lurch to nationalism as my personal experience of (mostly) English people was very positive.

I also know a lot of Irish in the UK who have been treated badly, pigeon holed as "IRA" sympathisers for no reason other than they sounded Irish and treated as second class citizens. Some are older and of a "Navvy" background who experienced the whole "No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish" type signs and were corralled into areas like Cricklewood/Kilburn whereas others, particularly younger generations, didn't experience such direct discrimination but often had to put up with "Paddy" type jokes and thinly veiled prejudice which has left them with a reciprocal hatred for a certain section of English society frequently embodied by hard core Brexiteers/UKIP/Little Englanders which seems to have mushroomed a lot over the last 10-15 years.

That's my tuppence worth.

Dr Cockhound

PadrePio,
Perhaps I'm a little short on the cop-on but I'm left a tad confused by your post stating you don't hate the British which then goes on to list the many ways and reason's for which, you despise them.

Strazdas

Deshawn wrote: »

Explain this "English supremacy and exceptionalism" that you are referring to?
Don't the UK have the right to leave the EU and run their own country as they see fit?

They were running their country as they saw fit after 1973 and 1994.

The whole sovereignty argument is bizarre. It would be like claiming you have lost your independence because you joined a golf club or a gym and are having to follow someone else's rules.

Deshawn

Strazdas wrote: »

They were running their country as they saw fit after 1973 and 1994.

The whole sovereignty argument is bizarre. It would be like claiming you have lost your independence because you joined a golf club or a gym and are having to follow someone else's rules.

To regain sovereignty they must leave the club. Precisely what happened. If you want to decide the rules for your self you have to leave the club. I don't see how it could be seen as bizarre.
It's like the tradesman leaving the company to go out on his own.

The EU is ever encroaching.

Brussels Sprout

Dr Cockhound wrote: »

Having read all of the Brexit posts in the many thread incarnations, I personally feel there's a clear hate for the English, proudly nurtured and displayed by more than a handful of posters for whom, nothing less than the economic destruction of England and the personal destitution of her people would be an acceptable outcome.

I can only speak for myself but I do not hate the English. I grew up consuming English media, reading novels by English writers and listening to English musicians. I support an English football team. I have live and worked in the UK. I voted in a UK general election in England. Many friends of mine still live there.

No, I do not hate the English. What I cannot abide by though is the particular brand of English exceptionalism that has been pushed by the right-wing media and turbo-charged by Brexit. The jingoistic, Empire-worshiping World War fetishising nonsense that has been a growing part of the Tories for years and led to the current situation. That, I cannot stand.

It's like a friend that you have grown up with who has fallen in with the wrong crowd. You have tried to talk them around but they don't want to listen. At some point they need a cold dose of reality. Not too much to destroy them. Just enough to humble them and make them see sense. That's what I want for England. I suspect that other posters are coming from a similar place.

Strazdas

Deshawn wrote: »

To regain sovereignty they must leave the club. Precisely what happened. If you want to decide the rules for your self you have to leave the club. I don't see how it could be seen as bizarre.
It's like the tradesman leaving the company to go out on his own

The world is full of rules. Even the tradesman of which you speak is inhibited by the number of rules and laws he has to follow : he must pay taxes, he must be insured, he cannot do anything illegal, he must treat his employees fairly and decently and pay them a good wage, he can only marry one woman etc.

Is anyone or anything truly 'sovereign'?

Dr Cockhound

Frankly, I think that terms such as 'English supremacy and exceptionalism' play well, generating partisan clicks and thus profits for journalists, but barely exist in the real world.

The UK sees its future as an independent and sovereign, trading nation, outside of the EU.

Hopefully, the UK will benefit from the different path it has taken whilst the EU will progress towards the plan of ever closer union, without the continual drag of the UK anchor chain, on this ambition.

Deshawn

Strazdas wrote: »

The world is full of rules. Even the tradesman of which you speak is inhibited by the number of rules and laws he has to follow : he must pay taxes, he must be insured, he cannot do anything illegal, he must treat his employees fairly and decently and pay them a good wage, he can only marry one woman etc.

Is anyone or anything truly 'sovereign'?

The EU laws are voted on by member states. Countries pooling their opinion and then following those laws win or lose.

The laws are now drafted in the UK by UK politicians and the people. The Germans, French, Greeks etc have no vote on the law the UK will be following anymore.

That's sovereignty

sam1986uk

There's a great irony here.. If the EU (and Poland) had been reasonable back in 2016 regarding the benefits for EU nationals I reckon we'd have voted Remain and none of this 4-year drama would ever have happened ��

We have a system where anyone can waltz up in our country. Do a bit of work for a few months and instantly open up the welfare system where they can drain thousands over the course of their lifetime.

What Cameron wanted: The Conservative manifesto said: "We will insist that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits and child benefit must live here and contribute to our country for a minimum of four years." It also proposed a "new residency requirement for social housing, so that EU migrants cannot even be considered for a council house unless they have been living in an area for at least four years".

Mr Cameron had to compromise on this aspect of the deal in the face of strong opposition from Poland and three other central European countries.

Gerry T

Dr Cockhound wrote:

I've never come across such reciprocal hate in the UK for the Irish and frankly think that some of the attitudes displayed here, remain at great odds with the hospitable reputation of the Irish enjoyed in the UK and across the world.

Im posting but mostly reading this thread for yrs, i also get involved with one in the UK. I dont see it as hating the people of the UK, what started as a debate to show the benefits of brexit, which couldn't be done other than sovereignty, ECJ oversight and 350m a week for the NHS. But when holes were picked it that and posters outlined their view they were seen as remoaners, haters, bullies. It was aimed at brexiteers, the 17m or about 25% of the uk population. Thats not the whole UK.

When people here say brexit was idiotic, a financial disaster, little to no benefit, thats not UK hate speech. Its an opinion on what might happen. It might not, in 10yrs all countries might see the way the UK went is the way to go but i doubt it.
Stick around and engage the points over the coming weeks, generally backed up with strong references by most. We would welcome an opposing argument to make it interesting, but you will get challenged if all you have are opinions.

As for superiority, that comes across when UK politicians make silly claims. Like Johnsons oven ready deal, they need us more than we need them, the easiest trade deal in history, the german car ..bla bla, we can starve the irish (nice one from patel) , nobodies talking about a border in the irish sea. Varadakar should know his place, lets ignore barnier and talk direct to merkel. I'll stop, i could go on, but that sort of talk just shows the uk thought they were equals in these trade talks, their expectations were set way to high.

Strazdas

Deshawn wrote: »

The EU laws are voted on by member states. Countries pooling their opinion and then following those laws win or lose.

The laws are now drafted in the UK by UK politicians and the people. The Germans, French, Greeks etc have no vote on the law the UK will be following anymore.

That's sovereignty

How does that benefit the ordinary British man or woman in the street?? Isn't this the "imaginary freedom" that Fintan O'Toole speaks of?

Dr Cockhound

The thing is Gerry, writing off 17m that you can't possibly have met as bigots and that last line about the UK being hopelessly inferior to the EU, smacks of ... well..... precisely the kind of exceptionalism that some here accuse the English of.

Dr Cockhound

Strazdas wrote: »

How does that benefit the ordinary British man or woman in the street?? Isn't this the "imaginary freedom" that Fintan O'Toole speaks of?

Surely laws draughted by a government that doesn't have to take into account, the effect of those laws on the populations of 26 other nations, are more likely to be specifically tailored to the requirements of that single population?