Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Irish Praetorian

gaming_needs90 wrote: »

Regarding the whole fish thing and quotas; who actually enforces this at a micro level? What is stopping Jim the Galway fisherman catching X tonnes over what he is allowed to but selling it on anyway to various buyers?

To be honest, I doubt there is any regulatory regime that could stop Jim the Galway fisherman landing a few bits and bobs here and there, selling it off the side of a road. Jim's problem is, if he wants to land a big catch he needs a big boat which has to go to a sufficiently large harbour to be handled and is likely to raise questions. And the other problem is that Jim might be able to eke out an small earning selling fish he catches by the side of the road, he is precluded from selling to any big buyers like supermarkets, fisher processors etc because the first thing they will ask him is 'where did ye get em?' and answering 'they fell off the side of the sea' will not cut it.

Tell me how

gaming_needs90 wrote: »

Regarding the whole fish thing and quotas; who actually enforces this at a micro level? What is stopping Jim the Galway fisherman catching X tonnes over what he is allowed to but selling it on anyway to various buyers?

Same people as enforces all standards/customs/permissions legislation.

Anyone can break the law, no doubt many do, but they need a buyer for the produce as well and authorities would be carrying out spot checks as well to make sure things are as intended.

Aside from the authorities, when it comes to fishing, there will be no shortage of people keeping a close eye on what others are at. I'd say it's a pretty toxic environment where competing nationalities run in to each other.

Imreoir2

gaming_needs90 wrote: »

Regarding the whole fish thing and quotas; who actually enforces this at a micro level? What is stopping Jim the Galway fisherman catching X tonnes over what he is allowed to but selling it on anyway to various buyers?

Customs agents visit ports around the coast spot checking boats as they come in to make sure they are not landing fish they are not licenced to catch. They can also see when boats are at sea so if they are declaring income far below what they should reasonably be catching for their time at sea, revenue will have some questions.

There will always be some fudging around the edges, but put your neck too far out and you will draw attention.

BonnieSituation

Dr Cockhound wrote: »

The thing is Gerry, writing off 17m that you can't possibly have met as bigots and that last line about the UK being hopelessly inferior to the EU, smacks of ... well..... precisely the kind of exceptionalism that some here accuse the English of.

I thought the days of invoking "the 17m" were over?

Brexit has happened and the only people who don't seem to accept it are the very ones that tell us how amazing it is.

Most of us on here are concerned with Brexit insofar as it affects our country and our citizens north and South. This is a concern that was shockingly absent from Brexiters to this day.

I think jumping into a thread like this and accusing those present as being 'Brit-haters' isn't going to endear you to most of us..

Perhaps change tack? You'll end up surprisingly informed.

peter kern

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And voted 98% against leaving the UK and going to Spain.

Interesting times.

its a funny situation alright but at the end of the day the la linea region needs the jobs in gibraltar . and since spain has ceuta and melliila its not that easy to feel sorry for spain not getting the rock back.
i guess for the economy in the region its beneficial to have gibraltar otherwise the region would go even more downhill than it is already.

interesting that it has become so quiet around gibraltar given the arguments about it at the beginning of brexit but i guess a similar solution as for NI makes sense.

Professor Moriarty

sam1986uk wrote: »

Thousands of Spanish people depend on Gibraltar for work. Thousands cross the border every day.
Those pesky Brits are even providing employment for EU citizens on the med coast..

Give Gibraltar back to Spain. Problem solved.

peter kern

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Give Gibraltar back to Spain. Problem solved.

i dont think that would do anything for the people that live in this area more likley the opposite it would cause more economical depression. and most people i have talked to in the region would agree with that it would only make a few people in madrid happy... the ones that cry aobut the rock and than talk very different about ceuta and melillia ...

Professor Moriarty

peter kern wrote: »

i dont think that would do anything for the people that live in this area more likley the opposite it would cause more economical depression. and most people i have talked to in the region would agree with that it would only make a few people in madrid happy... the ones that cry aobut the rock and than talk very different about ceuta and melillia ...

There are many parts of the world where Britain still has a presence that divides opinion. Can't think of an example just right now but I'm sure it will come to me.

sam1986uk

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

You keep assuming: I "don't like" Gibraltarians or I "hate" British people. Just because I suggest handing Gibraltar back to Spain doesn't mean I don't like Gibraltarians. Your logical fallacies indicate quite a defensive mindset.

They voted overwhelmingly to remain British but you want to hand over their wee country to Spain anyway. You can't be too fond of them...

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If you take your Farage glasses off for a moment, you might see a different perspective. One where EU citizens help keep Gibraltar's economy afloat.

My perspective is - Britain wherever in the world it is, it synonymous with wealth creation, job opportunities, and prosperity. This is true in Gibraltar and true in the UK. Those Spaniards are lucky to have a bit of Britain they can gain decent employment in without flying to our horrible climate.

jm08

peter kern wrote: »

i dont think that would do anything for the people that live in this area more likley the opposite it would cause more economical depression. and most people i have talked to in the region would agree with that it would only make a few people in madrid happy... the ones that cry aobut the rock and than talk very different about ceuta and melillia ...

First of all, Gibraltar wants to stay in the EU. Secondly, the fact that Gibraltar is a tax haven has a negative economic impact on neighbouring region of Spain (why set up a business in that part of Spain when you can operate from Gibraltar tax free). Thirdly, smuggling is a huge problem and Spain loses millions in tax revenue on cigarettes etc every year.

jm08

sam1986uk wrote: »

They voted overwhelmingly to remain British but you want to hand over their wee country to Spain anyway. You can't be too fond of them...

My perspective is - Britain wherever in the world it is, it synonymous with wealth creation, job opportunities, and prosperity. This is true in Gibraltar and true in the UK. Those Spaniards are lucky to have a bit of Britain they can gain decent employment in without flying to our horrible climate.

Tax havens like Caymen, British Virgi Islands, Isle of Man, etc create wealth for exactly who? How many jobs are created for the natives of these islands and what kind of jobs are they?

Padre_Pio

jm08 wrote: »

Tax havens like Caymen, British Virgi Islands, Isle of Man, etc create wealth for exactly who? How many jobs are created for the natives of these islands and what kind of jobs are they?

I don't think we should complain too much about tax havens.

Glass houses and all that :pac:

jm08

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I don't think we should complain too much about tax havens.

Glass houses and all that :pac:

in what way is Ireland in anyway comparable to the Caymen Islands? If Ireland is a tax haven, why was Apple transferring all its profits to the British Virgin Islands before repatriating back to US?

fash

squeekyduck wrote: »

What I don't get is how freedom of movement was achieved by the deal compared to Switzerland for example? How come the UK have tariff-free trade but no movement of people?

No freedom of movement was achieved by the EU-UK deal.
Tariff free trade is relatively easy to achieve - agree to a level playing field and you have a reasonable chance of being granted it.
What Switzerland has on top of that is: (almost) frictionless trade in goods - good for just in time deliveries; freedom of services/movement.
That is what the UK gave up - that will become much clearer at the end of week 1 in 2021.

Imreoir2

sam1986uk wrote: »

My perspective is - Britain wherever in the world it is, it synonymous with wealth creation, job opportunities, and prosperity. This is true in Gibraltar and true in the UK. Those Spaniards are lucky to have a bit of Britain they can gain decent employment in without flying to our horrible climate.

Unless you live in NI, Wales or the North of England. The UK has some of the poorest regions in northern Europe.

Your view is quite blinkered.

fash

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

Again, can I have the euromillions numbers please?

So in the future the U.K. join up to RCEP, a bloc of 2.2 billion people, they’ll be no better off than still trading with a block of 450 million, who they already have an FTA with. I can’t follow that logic.

This one is close - that one is far away...

tubercolossus

fash wrote: »

This one is close - that one is far away...

Yeah, the RCEP countries are Australia, Brunei, Cambodia, China, Indonesia, Japan, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, New Zealand, the Philippines, Singapore, South Korea, Thailand, and Vietnam.

Now, there's something all these countries have in common that doesn't apply to the UK, but, darn it, I just can't put my finger in it.

Capt'n Midnight

jm08 wrote: »

in what way is Ireland in anyway comparable to the Caymen Islands? If Ireland is a tax haven, why was Apple transferring all its profits to the British Virgin Islands before repatriating back to US?

Every so often the US govt allows a tax amnesty , for US corporations, from the US Virgin Islands.

The UK won't be able to use it's EU influence to keep it's dependencies off the EU watchlist.

fash

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

It’s 2020 not 1800, plus the U.K. are predominantly a services industry so it’s not geoblocked like agrifood or fish etc.

That's not much good where the services relate to the repair, maintenance or training in the operation of some piece of equipment you've just delivered - i.e. bundled services which a lot are. Services are almost as bound by geography/trade gravity as goods. That is aside from the fact that outside the single market, there are very few agreements on services and those that are are of a low/primitive level - the reason being that you need significant aspects of the single market to allow them to work (freedom of movement, supranational legal order etc.).

Yeah they do more trade with here than those countries ‘to date’ but what’s to stop it changing.

Geography - it's fundamental to trade - look it up - seriously. Unless the UK moves itself geographically or invents some form of portal technology allowing instant travel around the world - it will remain bound by geography.

I feel like I’m wasting my time coming from a place of ‘anything other than the norm of the EU trade bloc’, seems I’m talking about a future 1000’s of years away.

That depends on how quickly you can iron out the kinks in the portal technology.

sam1986uk

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Unless you live in NI, Wales or the North of England. The UK has some of the poorest regions in northern Europe.

Your view is quite blinkered.

Everything is relative. Our Poor is very different from other nations' poor.

Id rather is poor welfare dependent in Bolton than in some Polish village.

tubercolossus

fash wrote: »

Geography - it's fundamental to trade - look it up - seriously. Unless the UK moves itself geographically or invents some form of portal technology allowing instant travel around the world - it will remain bound by geography.

There's a scene in the Python film The Meaning of Life in which a stodgy old insurance company's building uproots itself and becomes a sort of capitalist pirate raider, 'sailing' around the world and boarding other companies in literally hostile takeovers. I think the Brexiteers have a similar kind of image of themselves - HMS Britannia, sailing around the globe, striking deals and prospering mightily with a yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum, and a cutlass in the vitals if you don't like it, by God. With BozoJo at the helm like Sir Francis Drake himself.

Capt'n Midnight

fash wrote: »

This one is close - that one is far away...

In terms of trade volume it's

Small and Far Away

moon2

sam1986uk wrote: »

Everything is relative. Our Poor is very different from other nations' poor.

Id rather is poor welfare dependent in Bolton than in some Polish village.

That's quite bigoted. Care to retract it or offer something of substance?

paul71

sam1986uk wrote: »

Everything is relative. Our Poor is very different from other nations' poor.

Id rather is poor welfare dependent in Bolton than in some Polish village.

The measurements of poverty in the EU are statistically measured, you are waving your hands about again. The poorest regions in the EU were heavily concentrated in Northern England.

The Poles who went to those regions went to work not to obtain welfare, that has been shown with statistical evidence by people on this tread in direct response to your untrue assertions. They even directly asked you to produce evidence to the contrary and you came back waving your hands again.

Perhaps ask yourself why people with no knowledge of an area, with the native language being their 2nd or 3rd language and with no family support networks were able to come to places like Bolton and obtain employment ahead of the locals who had all the advantages. Is it not obvious that they were better motivated, harder working or better educated, that being true (which it is) they contribute more to the UK economy than those locals they outwork.

The same thing happened in Ireland except at a far higher rate than in the UK, and we embraced it, the immigrants here including the largest group the British made Ireland a better, wealthier and more productive place.

Chips Lovell

Several posts deleted and a few people carded for ignoring this mod warning

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Also, let's not make this personal. No more Irish bashing, English bashing, or allegations of either.

Thanks

peter kern

jm08 wrote: »

First of all, Gibraltar wants to stay in the EU. Secondly, the fact that Gibraltar is a tax haven has a negative economic impact on neighbouring region of Spain (why set up a business in that part of Spain when you can operate from Gibraltar tax free). Thirdly, smuggling is a huge problem and Spain loses millions in tax revenue on cigarettes etc every year.

this article would disagree with your point of negative ecconimic impact for the region . http://www.realinstitutoelcano.org/wps/portal/rielcano_en/contenido?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/elcano/elcano_in/zonas_in/international+economy/ari26-2019-galianobastarrica-economic-effects-brexit-campo-de-gibraltar-econometric-approach

not to say that your your point 2 and 3 are not correct, but as for smuggling the smuggling from gibraltar cant even be compared with the drug smuggling problmems with hasish from africa

schmoo2k

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

Again, can I have the euromillions numbers please?

So in the future the U.K. join up to RCEP, a bloc of 2.2 billion people, they’ll be no better off than still trading with a block of 450 million, who they already have an FTA with. I can’t follow that logic.

For physical products they would need to significantly reduce their overheads to compete (with the exception of niche foods?).

I do agree that the RCEP are going to be a significant the future, but the UK currently have nothing they can realistically sell into that market?

Further by joining the RCEP they would then lose all revenue generated by import tariffs - the diff between imports and exports will be huge.

mrunsure

If Gibraltar join Schengen, will that allow them to live and work in the EU, or does it just allow them to travel to Spain and the rest of the Schengen area without a passport?

Professor Moriarty

Interesting article here. The opening paragraph:

"Europe will see its biggest transfer of share trading in more than two decades when stock exchanges open for business in 2021, with Brexit shifting its centre of gravity away from London."

So January 4th will be interesting. Also from the article, share trading companies see some major shifts next year:

"For Aquis, more than half of its business will in future be in the EU rather than all in London, while Cboe is hopeful that clearing in share trades could move from rivals in London to its own clearing house in Amsterdam over time. Goldman Sachs expects half the daily trading in shares on its Sigma-X Europe trading platform to shift over time to its new Paris hub from London. Cboe held a simulation exercise on Dec. 5 and Howson said this revealed its customers expect to shift all their trading in European shares to EU venues."

One trading company described the Brexit deal as a "big bang event" that is a "huge own goal" for financial services. Interesting times.

johnnyskeleton

mrunsure wrote: »

If Gibraltar join Schengen, will that allow them to live and work in the EU, or does it just allow them to travel to Spain and the rest of the Schengen area without a passport?

Just the travel I believe. Schengen is a borders and passports arrangement for some EU member states (e.g. Ireland is not part of it). The right to live and work is governed by EU Directive in accordance with the TFEU. I don't think Gibraltar would be able to avail of the right to free movement of workers etc unless they were part of the EU, and they are too small to join.

However, Spain and France might unilaterally grant free movement rights equivalent to EU workers rights to Gibraltar UK residents if they wish, or concievably Spain could over citizenship to all Gibraltar residents, which might be perceived badly by the UK but such is life!