Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Tell me how

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think the Corbyn years has trapped them in that tarpit for the foreseeable future. Leavers think they're pro-Remain and Remainers think they're too weak to vocally support Remain and that Corbyn's coterie of extremely left wing associates were partly to blame for the result. I count myself in that category.

A free vote might be best but I think ultimately, they'll catch flak whatever they do.

Think a free vote is definitely the way to go. Allows individuals to focus on local interests and irrespective of what they do as a party, they can't affect the outcome.

If they abstain, they're just giving the Tories a stick to beat them with saying that they are all talk and no action.

The last time to roll back on Brexit or take any sort of a step towards that was the General Election in Dec 2019 and the 80 seat majority put any argument in this respect to bed.

Allow a free vote, focus on messages relating to UK issues for the next 4 years and then look to win back some of the seats from the Tories. Tall order though, if Brexit is in any way successful for the UK, the Tories will walk home again next time out.

An Ciarraioch

If the UK is outside the Single Energy Market, where does that leave the interconnector with Wales?

Seth Brundle

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

If the UK is outside the Single Energy Market, where does that leave the interconnector with Wales?

All TBC apparently...

From 1 January 2021
The UK government has concluded a Free Trade Agreement with the European Union to come into effect following the transition period, ending 31 December 2020. This agreement provides a framework for future electricity trading across interconnectors between the UK and the EU. The agreed model of trading will take time to develop and will not be in place for 1 January 2021. Previously developed alternative arrangements will need to be implemented in the interim, which will endure until the agreed trading model can be put in place. This section describes what will happen on 1 January 2021.

In Northern Ireland, the Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol to the Withdrawal Agreement provides the basis for the continued operation of the Single Electricity Market after 1 January 2021. The UK government is supporting the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland to implement the Single Electricity Market provisions at Article 9 and Annex 4 of the Protocol, which apply key elements of European energy law in Northern Ireland, which are largely devolved, to enable the effective operation of the Single Electricity Market across the island of Ireland.

From 1 January 2021 cross-border flows across electricity interconnectors will no longer be governed by EU legislation which provides for efficient trade and cross-border cooperation in operating the electricity system. In accordance with the agreed UK-EU FTA, a new model of efficient electricity trading across interconnectors will be developed, including for trade between Great Britain and the Single Electricity Market. These arrangements will not be in place for 1 January 2021. Market participants should therefore be aware that alternative arrangements for electricity trading between Great Britain and the Single Electricity Market will be in place from 1 January 2021.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/trading-electricity-if-theres-no-brexit-deal/trading-electricity-if-theres-no-brexit-deal#from-1-january-2021

Enzokk

dresden8 wrote: »

At the moment this is Boris' deal. When Starmer votes for it it becomes his deal and he can STFU complaining about it. He really is useless.

Why? Do you remember Iain Duncan Smith and the Tories invading Iraq?

Uk votes approving invasion in Iraq

Yes
Labour - 254
Conservatives - 146
UUP, DUP and Independent - 12
Total: 412

No
Labour - 84
Lib Dems - 52
SNP and other smaller parties - 11
Conservative - 2
Total: 149

Abstain
Labour - 69
Conservative - 17
SF, Lib Dems and SDLP - 7
Total: 94

Take the 146 Tories voting yes away and have them voting no the vote is lost. Abstain and the vote still goes through, but if WMD's are found they look like cowards. Vote yes and get it through? Doesn't matter as it was Labour and Blair in charge and they take the blame.

So I find it hard to see how anyone can think of laying the blame on Labour if they vote for this deal to ensure no-deal is off the table when it was Johnson that negotiated it and brought it back and will fight for it in the HoC tomorrow as well.

dresden8

Enzokk wrote: »

Why? Do you remember Iain Duncan Smith and the Tories invading Iraq?

Uk votes approving invasion in Iraq

Yes
Labour - 254
Conservatives - 146
UUP, DUP and Independent - 12
Total: 412

No
Labour - 84
Lib Dems - 52
SNP and other smaller parties - 11
Conservative - 2
Total: 149

Abstain
Labour - 69
Conservative - 17
SF, Lib Dems and SDLP - 7
Total: 94

Take the 146 Tories voting yes away and have them voting no the vote is lost. Abstain and the vote still goes through, but if WMD's are found they look like cowards. Vote yes and get it through? Doesn't matter as it was Labour and Blair in charge and they take the blame.

So I find it hard to see how anyone can think of laying the blame on Labour if they vote for this deal to ensure no-deal is off the table when it was Johnson that negotiated it and brought it back and will fight for it in the HoC tomorrow as well.

He won't have to fight for it. Starmer decided to vote for it sight unseen.

He now cannot talk it down or slag off the deal. He didn't sell his vote, he gave his ass away for free. He is Boris' bitch now.

Enzokk

dresden8 wrote: »

He won't have to fight for it. Starmer decided to vote for it sight unseen.

He now cannot talk it down or slag off the deal. He didn't sell his vote, he gave his ass away for free. He is Boris' bitch now.

Because it is no-deal or this deal. Labour can still voice their unhappiness about the deal and vote for it, because the alternative will be much much worse.

54and56

dresden8 wrote: »

He won't have to fight for it. Starmer decided to vote for it sight unseen.

He now cannot talk it down or slag off the deal. He didn't sell his vote, he gave his ass away for free. He is Boris' bitch now.

Not true, he made very clear he is only voting for it because the alternative, a no deal WTO Brexit, works be worse.

He has outlined the shortfalls in this thin Tory FTA.

I personally think the right political decision for Labour, particularly now the ERG have hitched their wagon to BoJo's deal, is to abstain but if Starmer had adopted that position it would have opened the door to the ERG voting against in order to achieve a "pure" WTO no deal Brexit and the consequences of that would be even greater for Labour.

This is senior hurling politics, not college canteen politics!!!

breezy1985

Enzokk wrote: »

Because it is no-deal or this deal. Labour can still voice their unhappiness about the deal and vote for it, because the alternative will be much much worse.

Ya but that kind of logical thinking doesn't fit with the narrative being peddled here this evening regarding Labour

I don't see any issue with labour voting for a deal. It means the Tories can get a deal through parliament that doesn't satisfy the hardest Brexiteers, which from my understanding, this deal doesn't or shouldn't.

dresden8

June 2021

Starmer: This is the worst deal possible.

Johnson: May I remind the honourable leader of the opposition that not only did he heartily accept the deal he whipped his party to vote for it.

You voted for it Sir Keir. You can't deny it later

reslfj

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Just to be pedantic ESTA is not a visa waiver.

The visa waiver is the visa waiver and has been around longer than ESTA.

ESTA is a security measure to verify incoming passengers, that is used in conjunction with the visa waiver.

I didn't use anything, but the ESTA number and my Danish/EU passport when I visited the US January 2020.
But had I visited e.g. Iran, I should have obtained a must more expensive full visa to the US.

But I understand the ESTA and the ETIAS has the same goal of being an efficient precheck that can keep most unwanted travellers outside the US/Schengen respectively.

Lars

Thargor

More stories like this to come in 2021 Id say:

https://twitter.com/jamesmb/status/1343934702550458368

sam1986uk

Thargor wrote: »

More stories like this to come in 2021 Id say:

https://twitter.com/jamesmb/status/1343934702550458368

Let's keep tabs on Peter...

You never know in a few months' time... his customers are still buying his eels because he's a trusted source that has never let them down in the past.. and a few extra forms per transaction is of no consequence.

Headshot

Thargor wrote: »

More stories like this to come in 2021 Id say:

https://twitter.com/jamesmb/status/1343934702550458368

Very hard to have sympathy for someone who voted for Brexit. Like what the hell did he expect to happen, sunshine and lollipops?

I put money on him voting for Tories as well, thinking they'll get Brexit done.....

People like this really deserve all they get tbh but unfortunately his workers will feel the pain.

Widdensushi

This was the best possible outcome for him

Imreoir2

sam1986uk wrote: »

Let's keep tabs on Peter...

You never know in a few months' time... his customers are still buying his eels because he's a trusted source that has never let them down in the past.. and a few extra forms per transaction is of no consequence.

Indeed, he might develop a pig based air delivery service too.

sam1986uk

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Indeed, he might develop a pig based air delivery service too.

https://glasseel.com/

I've bookmarked this for the future.. I'll report back in 3 months on it. I wonder if Peter will still be in biz then.

Thargor

sam1986uk wrote: »

Let's keep tabs on Peter...

You never know in a few months' time... his customers are still buying his eels because he's a trusted source that has never let them down in the past.. and a few extra forms per transaction is of no consequence.

Yeah project fear innit?

sam1986uk

Thargor wrote: »

Yeah project fear innit?

project doom-mongering over hypothetical future events

Thargor

sam1986uk wrote: »

project doom-mongering over hypothetical future events

Well Im sure you know more than him about whether his market is screwed or not...

Just out of curiosity if everything is so wonderful why do you think this businessman would volunteer to go on Sky News and lie like this?

sam1986uk

Thargor wrote: »

Well Im sure you know more than him about whether his market is screwed or not...

Just out of curiosity if everything is so wonderful why do you think this businessman would volunteer to go on Sky News and lie like this?

Did you watch the video or listen to him?

He's not lied about anything. he made blanket statements inferring his customers "might as well buy elsewhere".

This piece has been lapped up by the plebs. Nothing better than a man getting his comeuppance especially in the eyes of the hateful left.

Imreoir2

sam1986uk wrote: »

Did you watch the video or listen to him?

He's not lied about anything. he made blanket statements inferring his customers "might as well buy elsewhere".

This piece has been lapped up by the plebs. Nothing better than a man getting his comeuppance especially in the eyes of the hateful left.

Personally, I would say the hateful ones are the charlatans who convinced that poor sod to vote to put his own economic future at risk.

54and56

sam1986uk wrote: »

Let's keep tabs on Peter...

You never know in a few months' time... his customers are still buying his eels because he's a trusted source that has never let them down in the past.. and a few extra forms per transaction is of no consequence.

Please please please let's bookmark this post and review how things have panned out in 18 months time.

Not exactly a representative sample but it is a real example which is a lot more than the hypothetical sunlit uplands promised by Brexiteers.

Anyone got a balancing story of how their UK (excluding NI) business will double in 18 months as a result of Brexit other than customs agencies and similar?

moon2

sam1986uk wrote: »

He's not lied about anything. he made blanket statements inferring his customers "might as well buy elsewhere".

You've inferred more from your own wishful thinking than the news report.

To push your belief that this business owner is unworried about the future of the business is nonsensical.

sam1986uk

moon2 wrote: »

You've inferred more from your own wishful thinking than the news report.

To push your belief that this business owner is unworried about the future of the business is nonsensical.

I never said he's not worried.. he's obviously in despair and thinks his customers are going to go elsewhere because of some forms. Probably the reason Sky News chose to a piece on him. I bet they had to phone around.

I'm more interested in objective facts.. unlike the hateful tossers on social media sneering at this guy.. More often than not they have an EU flag as their profile pic..

Does anyone here have an EU flag as their profile photo on facebook? There's gotta be one

moon2

sam1986uk wrote: »

I'm more interested in objective facts..

Objectively the facts are: a business owner who should be somewhat proficient in running a business expresses concern that the incoming paperwork will be problematic.

You, an uninformed person with no experience at running a business state that this is not the case... Because... Why?

Do you have some objective facts to back up your experience with import/export of live animals, or anything which can be used to validate your opinion?

Thargor

sam1986uk wrote: »

I never said he's not worried.. he's obviously in despair and thinks his customers are going to go elsewhere because of some forms. Probably the reason Sky News chose to a piece on him. I bet they had to phone around.

I'm more interested in objective facts.. unlike the hateful tossers on social media sneering at this guy.. More often than not they have an EU flag as their profile pic..

Does anyone here have an EU flag as their profile photo on facebook? There's gotta be one

Its not really "just some forms" though is it? Do you really think thats all it boils down to? Although your EU flag Facebook comment along with your other statements about the radical left would indicate you probably do.

sam1986uk

Cba going round in circles on this.

I take the optimistic view that most of his customers in the EU will not leave him. He's obviously very reputable and they like the product. In my experience, people tend not to want to rock the boat.



Look at this idiot. The sad thing is he's probably English / British. I despise these self-loathing cucks. At least you Irish have a vested interest in the downfall of this country..

Imreoir2

sam1986uk wrote: »

Cba going round in circles on this.

I take the optimistic view that most of his customers in the EU will not leave him. He's obviously very reputable and they like the product. In my experience, people tend not to want to rock the boat.



Look at this idiot. The sad thing is he's probably English / British. I despise these self-loathing cucks. At least you Irish have a vested interest in the downfall of this country..

"cucks"

What is it about that word that makes its user fall ten rungs in my estimation?
:rolleyes:

Nate--IRL--

sam1986uk wrote: »

Look at this idiot. The sad thing is he's probably English / British. I despise these self-loathing cucks. At least you Irish have a vested interest in the downfall of this country..

Illuminating.

Nate