Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

ArmaniJeanss

Captain Lugger wrote: »

It will accelerate decay and I'm flummoxed as to there being any upside at all. More pertinently, I lived and worked in Bristol for a year in 2011 and the hostility to 'foreigners' and 'Brussels' by some very vocal working class people I worked with persuaded me that what has come to pass would happen. I've lived on and off in England over the years but mainly in London but never saw the visceral hatred towards the other there, that I saw in the west of England.

The thing is Bristol actually voted 62% Remain despite that hostility you experienced.
So you can just imagine what it'd be liked if you lived in one of the cities that were 60% Leave.

Captain Lugger

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

The thing is Bristol actually voted 62% Remain despite that hostility you experienced.
So you can just imagine what it'd be liked if you lived in one of the cities that were 60% Leave.

Oh yes, I'm aware of that. There were certainly no Leave votes among the people I lived with and were friendly with. Work was another matter entirely as I was doing admin and accounts for an engineering company, and that was the only crossover into that territory in my day to day life. People do tend to live in silos of the similar minded in England - and a significant number of my former work colleagues were ex-BA, including the manager itching to imply that all Irish were 'ra heads. However my closest workmate, also ex-BA, hadn't a bigoted bone in his body.

Seth Brundle

Captain Lugger wrote: »

and a significant number of my former work colleagues were ex-BA, including the manager itching to imply that all Irish were 'ra heads. However my closest workmate, also ex-BA, hadn't a bigoted bone in his body.

Its funny - I have a close friend in Worcester who is ex-RAF and served in NI. He understands the delicate situation in NI, loves holidaying in Ireland and is completely against Brexit.
Another friend in England who would be elderly now is the opposite and despite loving trips to France and Germany is very pro-Brexit. The last time I met him here (sometime after the 2016 vote) I was left feeling somewhat disgusted with him as the conversation seemed quite condescending and how the Irish should really follow the UK out as we need them and all that rubbish. It's funny how his personality kind of changed since 2016 and he has become more dislikeable (not just to me).
I'm sure for those living in England it has become more difficult to steer away from a conversation that could end up as a fight. They do say that you should never discuss politics or religion. In terms of Brexit, or some people this falls into both buckets.

johnnyskeleton

yagan wrote: »

One of our Scottish friends used to love paying for his round with Scottish notes because when they'd get knocked back his English Brexiter friends would have to pay for him.

I still cant get over the way that English places dont accept Scottish, Northern Irish or Manx notes, yet are so criticial of the Euro. I can go to Greece and use the same money there as I can here, but I can use the money I earned in Sterling 50 miles south in the same country!

It fits in with my theory that everything a Brexiteer says about the EU is in reality a transference of their own country. When they call the Euro a disfunctional currency you have to laugh!

johnnyskeleton

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Another friend in England who would be elderly now is the opposite and despite loving trips to France and Germany is very pro-Brexit. The last time I met him here (sometime after the 2016 vote) I was left feeling somewhat disgusted with him as the conversation seemed quite condescending and how the Irish should really follow the UK out as we need them and all that rubbish. It's funny how his personality kind of changed since 2016 and he has become more dislikeable (not just to me).

The simple answer for him is that you agree with the Brexit sentiment that you dont want your contry dominated by a union that has imperial ambitions, is on the verge of finacial collapse and would see to dictate our laws to us! With a bit of luck he wont notice what you really mean and find you incredibly congenial and like minded!

Seth Brundle

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The simple answer for him is that you agree with the Brexit sentiment that you dont want your contry dominated by a union that has imperial ambitions, is on the verge of finacial collapse and would see to dictate our laws to us! With a bit of luck he wont notice what you really mean and find you incredibly congenial and like minded!

I've actually stopped trying to engage with him. A recent Facebook post if his was expressing glee that Macron had covid and was isolating finishing with the line "get well soon but not too soon". Of the three responses to his post, the first was...

It is my prediction that our PM will, at some point before 31 December, announce that we have inflicted the greatest defeat upon the French since Agincourt and everyone will be happy again.

I'm too old to waste time with that kind of narrow-minded idiocy :rolleyes:

breezy1985

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I still cant get over the way that English places dont accept Scottish, Northern Irish or Manx notes, yet are so criticial of the Euro. I can go to Greece and use the same money there as I can here, but I can use the money I earned in Sterling 50 miles south in the same country!

It fits in with my theory that everything a Brexiteer says about the EU is in reality a transference of their own country. When they call the Euro a disfunctional currency you have to laugh!

I worked with English people who wouldn't take it because they thought Scotland and NI were foreign countries.
The dumbing down of the GCSE has a lot to answer for

It was me the Irish guy who was most adamant we take them although the Scottish and NI don't help themselves by having completely different notes for each bank and when I was there some banks had 2 kinds each and some NI one's say Danskebank on them which is real confusing

mrunsure

I grew up in one of those bleak Leave voting northern towns. I went to university in the south and been down here ever since. I've worked in central London or Surrey since 2016 and out of the dozens of people who I worked with over that time, I met not one Brexiteer. I pretty much only ever work with graduates. Brexit would be openly talked about in the office from a Remain perspective, assuming everyone in the room is a Remainer. If there were any Brexiteers, they would have kept quiet. It was definitely not socially acceptable to be pro-Brexit in the offices I worked in.

I would never go back to my home town, even though I could get a detached house for the same price of our flat.

joe40

mrunsure wrote: »

I grew up in one of those bleak Leave voting northern towns. I went to university in the south and been down here ever since. I've worked in central London or Surrey since 2016 and out of the dozens of people who I worked with over that time, I met not one Brexiteer. I pretty much only ever work with graduates. Brexit would be openly talked about in the office from a Remain perspective, assuming everyone in the room is a Remainer. If there were any Brexiteers, they would have kept quiet. It was definitely not socially acceptable to be pro-Brexit in the offices I worked in.

I would never go back to my home town, even though I could get a detached house for the same price of our flat.

That's interesting, I knew there was a divide but didn't think it was so stark.
There seems to have been a concerted effort by sections of British establishment to parcel Brexit as an idealogical issue. That Trump's real logic in many minds.
I think it is important to remember that the referendum on passed by a very slim majority, and although the tories have a large majority in HoC the majority of people did not vote for them.

Plenty of British/English people are fair minded and should not be defined by Brexit. Unfortunately the electoral system been what it is they won't have a voice for awhile.

beerguts

I have watches a couple some of the interviews/speaches that Bill cash and Mark François have given regarding the Deal and they truly have a poor grasp of reality.
Check this video below of the speach François gave today, how on earth does this guy have the Tory whip. It Beggars belief to be honest.
https://youtu.be/c3bCRTbmVlc

PokeHerKing

sam1986uk wrote: »

Who'd have guessed it.. the "i'm alright jack" crowd not wanting the status quo to change and the people with nothing to lose wanting change.

Yeah Jacob Rees Mogg Et al. have all the chavs best interests at heart. I reckon Shameless is Moggs favorite show because he can relate to it so easily.

Strazdas

Captain Lugger wrote: »

It will accelerate decay and I'm flummoxed as to there being any upside at all. More pertinently, I lived and worked in Bristol for a year in 2011 and the hostility to 'foreigners' and 'Brussels' by some very vocal working class people I worked with persuaded me that what has come to pass would happen. I've lived on and off in England over the years but mainly in London but never saw the visceral hatred towards the other there, that I saw in the west of England. Curiously enough me being Irish wasn't an issue for most of these proto-Brexiters, but one manager that I worked with had to be told firmly I wasn't either an IRA or SF sympathiser in any shape or form.

It is going to be very strange over the next while and the Moon on a Stick is not going to be delivered to the people who expected it. How that will turn out is anyone's guess.

I get the feeling though Brexit is purely an internal British / English crisis. Yes, many Brexit fans are xenophobic and hate foreigners, but it's much more about a country being at war with itself. Everything at play including the north / south divide, the class system and elite toffs running the country, right vs left, multiculturalism and immigration etc. The EU and Europe are just convenient scapegoats and a distraction for a divided society.

CelticRambler

Something that struck me in Mr Eel Guy's UKIP interview was that the Ukipper interviewer did most of the talking, made most of the points and essentially only asked Mr. Eel Guy to confirm what he'd just been told. I thought it was most peculiar that Eel Guy acknowledged (a) that he was in competition with French suppliers; and (b) they had a natural advantage due to their slightly warmer climate giving them a month's head start ... and yet somehow leaving the EU was going to change that???

I'm hoping someone does a follow-up interview with that flower importer in Kent at some point in the next month or so. Would love to know what he thinks now of what he voted for.

yagan

CelticRambler wrote: »

I'm hoping someone does a follow-up interview with that flower importer in Kent at some point in the next month or so. Would love to know what he thinks now of what he voted for.

I'd love a follow up interview with the Bendy Banana woman from Question time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrGMTdsj_tk&ab_channel=AnnieLudlow

johnnyskeleton

beerguts wrote: »

I have watches a couple some of the interviews/speaches that Bill cash and Mark François have given regarding the Deal and they truly have a poor grasp of reality.
Check this video below of the speach François gave today, how on earth does this guy have the Tory whip. It Beggars belief to be honest.
https://youtu.be/c3bCRTbmVlc

Interesting speech, with a few observations:

1) the "spartans", the "star chamber", the "battle for brexit" etc. They sound more like pompous undergrads than legislators;

2) much like the Brexit party has lost its raison d'etre, it sounds like the ERG has too;

3) the fight for the union - surely those Tories want to get rid of pesky Scotland. And referring to it as Churchills Island in the same part - ignores NI completely;

4) if I genuinely believed that Brexit was bringing freedom to my people, and Id been working towards it for my whole political life, I would be passionate about it, maybe even shed a tear. Francois sounded distinctly unenthusiastic about it - probably because he has lost his relevance

ancapailldorcha

I find it quite disconcerting that most of the public are just happy to take this to be honest. What the government have done is to effect serious and long lasting constitutional change with about half a day for Parliament to scrutinise a document of two thousand-odd pages.

This was sold to the British people in 2016 as a chance to reduce bureaucracy, embrace global trade, regain sovereignty and do a deal with the EU that gives the same benefits as membership. Instead, we see a commitment to maintaining a level playing field with Brussels, a mountain of extra bureaucracy that will cost importers and exporters a fortune to comply with, some rolled over trade deals and the rushing through of legislation so that it can't be properly scrutinised. The EU set the schedule for negotiations and then had to deal with Johnson's time wasting silly games with the result being that there was no time to talk about what really mattered to the British - financial services. Instead we get Michael Gove going on about paperwork making firms "match day ready". And this is the party of business.

It's been literally years since anyone pretended that Brexit would benefit the UK but for the whole population to just sit here and take it on top of the bungled response to covid... I don't know to be honest.

beggars_bush

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I find it quite disconcerting that most of the public are just happy to take this to be honest. What the government have done is to effect serious and long lasting constitutional change with about half a day for Parliament to scrutinise a document of two thousand-odd pages.

This was sold to the British people in 2016 as a chance to reduce bureaucracy, embrace global trade, regain sovereignty and do a deal with the EU that gives the same benefits as membership. Instead, we see a commitment to maintaining a level playing field with Brussels, a mountain of extra bureaucracy that will cost importers and exporters a fortune to comply with, some rolled over trade deals and the rushing through of legislation so that it can't be properly scrutinised. The EU set the schedule for negotiations and then had to deal with Johnson's time wasting silly games with the result being that there was no time to talk about what really mattered to the British - financial services. Instead we get Michael Gove going on about paperwork making firms "match day ready". And this is the party of business.

It's been literally years since anyone pretended that Brexit would benefit the UK but for the whole population to just sit here and take it on top of the bungled response to covid... I don't know to be honest.

A large % of Brits are not educated enough to understand that or care

Sam Russell

RTE quoting the FT that the customs documentation will cost UK business GB£7 billion a year. That is just paperwork - not lost business or delay costs, or other direct or indirect costs. That compares with a net cost of EU membership at GB£9 billion.

There cannot be an upside to the loss of EU membership no matter what happens within the UK. The future looks bleak with the loss of Honda already, and Nissan looking like exiting back to Japan along with Toyota. Even Dyson is leaving.

Oh, what a web we weave when first we try to deceive. The British public were not just thrown under the bus, but the bus lied to them in glorious red letters (and numbers).

ancapailldorcha

beggars_bush wrote: »

A large % of Brits are not educated enough tp understand that or care

I don't think it's an education thing. I'd be more inclined to blame the press here. They seem to be largely quite underhanded and manipulative but not as bad as in the US. There are some excellent outlets here but they're too niche IMO.

Sam Russell wrote: »

RTE quoting the FT that the customs documentation will cost UK business GB£7 billion a year. That is just paperwork - not lost business or delay costs, or other direct or indirect costs. That compares with a net cost of EU membership at GB£9 billion.

There cannot be an upside to the loss of EU membership no matter what happens within the UK. The future looks bleak with the loss of Honda already, and Nissan looking like exiting back to Japan along with Toyota. Even Dyson is leaving.

Oh, what a web we weave when first we try to deceive. The British public were not just thrown under the bus, but the bus lied to them in glorious red letters (and numbers).

I'm thinking it'll be a series of cuts. Only time will tell but in a weird way, the deal being dropped on Christmas Eve just drained me for some reason. This is it. Year after year of squabbling, deceit, industrial levels of irony and fanatics desperate for something they don't understand for a small piece of the benefits package the British had before Brexit.

The EU have played a belter here. All they wanted, financial settlement of outstanding monies, level playing fields, governance, state aid, NI border and arbitration they got. The UK is a net exporter of services and a net importer of goods and the former is not included in the deal.

The second I can find a decent job offer in Ireland or the continent, I'm out I think. With everything that's happened this year, they've just ploughed on ahead purely for ideological reasons with no regard whatsoever for the populace.

Jizique

beerguts wrote: »

I have watches a couple some of the interviews/speaches that Bill cash and Mark François have given regarding the Deal and they truly have a poor grasp of reality.
Check this video below of the speach François gave today, how on earth does this guy have the Tory whip. It Beggars belief to be honest.
https://youtu.be/c3bCRTbmVlc

With all due respect and after spending four and a half years trying to understand the upside of Brexit, I refuse to watch this - thanks for the warning

Leroy42

And what appears to have been glossed over in all of this, the UK decided to sacrifice its own union in a bid to get away from the EU.

Whilst people who believe that Brexit is a good thing will continue to argue about long term benefits and the value of sovereignty, it cannot be denied that it is now harder to do business with one part of the union than it was before.

So the UK are, politically at least, a weaker unit than they were in 2016.

54and56

Jizique wrote: »

With all due respect and after spending four and a half years trying to understand the upside of Brexit, I refuse to watch this - thanks for the warning

Honestly, you should watch it, just to remind yourself of the calibre of person who was a senior ERG member and leave campaigner who helped convince 52% of the UK population to exit the largest and most successful single market in the world in favour of glorious isolation, increased barriers to trade and more difficult travel for its own citizens.

Well done Mr Francois et al. You will go down in history for delivering the greatest folly of all time, bar none.

Mr.Wemmick

Education in the UK is quite good (lived in Ireland, N. Ireland and now in Hampshire, UK), but the british public have been manipulated and lied to by the tory press for decades.. Thatcher was queen of it. BBC is so awful now, crikey it's painful stuff, rarely listen anymore. Brexit was a long time coming, if you ask me, and they need the almighty kick up the jollies that brexit will give them to shake them out of their stupor - matrix anyone?

The mindset is all wrong here - passive acceptance of a political class who have lost the plot. Even the present covid reaction from parents is mind boggling. No matter how many times a few of us tell parents (UK forum) to hold their ground, not to be intimidated by nonsense, bully tactics dished out by schools and local authorities re: attendance of vulnerable kids or kids with vulnerable family members, parents continue to freak out and feel they will be fined, taken to court, etc. There is not the independence of thought and objectivity we Irish have. A passive guilty lost nation led-by-the-nose by shoddy politicians gaslighting at every turn to control and manipulate behaviour.

No doubt there will be many studies done in the future to ascertain how a country allowed this nonsense to happen in the first place. Decades in the making (or you take it all the way back to Henry VIII) a perfect storm, but 'tis time for them to live with the damage and mistakes so they can reshape the country for the better in years to come.

devnull

Geoffrey Cox, famous for his 'This Parliament is a disgrace' and supporting the illegal prorouging of Parliament, has just been handed a knighthood in the New Years Honours List.

I couldn't think of anything more fitting for the last few days of the UK's membership of the EU. It just sums it all up pretty much.

Lano Lynn

As BJ can stand in the HoC and declare that the deal proves "we can have our cake and eat it" I cannot but wonder could he not be a little more eloquent what wit all that classics education and genius.

A part of me really wishes the EU told them to take their fish and Pi55 off .

In 4 years there would be no doubt whether they were happy with their new 'independence'

with the deal it will take a generation before they will even mention rejoining (not sure we want them anyway)

The short sharp shock would be better than inevitable never ending trade disputes.

the real problem with brexit is that money has no morals .
There Is a global climate change crisis and a growing consensus that global Taxation /ineqality must be tackled .
London will become(more of) a tax haven for Billionares and olligarks , while the EU increases regulations on energy etc

ancapailldorcha

Leroy42 wrote: »

And what appears to have been glossed over in all of this, the UK decided to sacrifice its own union in a bid to get away from the EU.

Whilst people who believe that Brexit is a good thing will continue to argue about long term benefits and the value of sovereignty, it cannot be denied that it is now harder to do business with one part of the union than it was before.

So the UK are, politically at least, a weaker unit than they were in 2016.

It's glossed over because nobody cares. Well, many people do but the government and senior Brexiters certainly don't. I'm of the impression that Brexit is more about specific demographics trying to twist England specifically into a vision of theirs along with getting one over on liberals or the left or whoever. They've been told for decades that they have no control. They have no more now, or arguably even less given that they can't influence EU policy any more but they got to feel like they were taking back control for one day so there's that.

If Brexit was about reducing bureaucracy, red tape and onerous regulation then the lorry parks in Kent, the £7 billion cost of new customs personnel and infrastructure and the level playing field would elicit outrage. Instead, Michael Gove sees it as some form of perverse training exercise.

If Brexit was about reducing immigration, why was non-EU immigration not cut? I'd put it down to the old neoliberal attitude of the state doing as little as possible but even still nobody seems to be talking about halting freedom of movement and the need to fill some of the jobs migrants tend to overwhelmingly do such as fruit picking.

If Brexit was about trade, why didn't Britain lobby the EU to be more active in negotiating more deals with countries like China, India and Brazil? There was TTIP with the US but that was unpopular on both sides of the Atlantic. The EU was worried that the government would slash regulation and standards to allow unscrupulous corporations to use the UK as a way to undermine the single market. That's been resolved with the level playing field. They talk about taking back control but now Brussels can now suspend whole parts of the deal if they see violations of the LPF.

Apparently, representatives of British fishermen are now throwing around accusations of betrayal and yet that's barely been reported by the red tops. They were unwise to trust a man who cheated on his wife while she was receiving chemotherapy for breast cancer IMO but they knew what they were voting for I suppose.

And then there's sovereignty where a colossal constitutional change has been voted through the House of Commons with less than a working day's scrutiny because it suited the PM. So much for Parliament making the laws.

That leaves the rather simplistic explanation of parts of British society wanting to kick the rest of it. You see something similar in the US with poor people voting for the GOP. It's an explanation that fits rather awkwardly to be honest. Most people don't assiduously follow politics but there's likely something to this. The UK is a very unequal country and yet it's the haves that have chosen to kick the have nots. Pensioners who dodged tuition fees and extortionate accommodation rents (generally speaking) decided that the next generation should have their rights and opportunities limited for no tangible benefit whatsoever. It conflicts of the old adage that one should respect their elders but when said elders just let their prejudices guide their electoral decisions, there's noting to respect IMO. Again, painting with a very broad brush here. Plenty of older people did vote to stay and plenty of younger people didn't vote one way or another.

For all the Brexiter talk of the UK being a globalist nation, they do like to ignore the fact that again and again the country was embroiled in some continental struggle or another. No amount of Express headlines will ever trump geography. This is why projections for trade deals have been so lacklustre. Countries trade most with their neighbours. This isn't difficult.

Going forward, I don't know what's ahead for the UK. The future looked grim without Brexit. Climate change, mass automation, industrial tax avoidance and evasion and covid are all international problems that need international solutions. Instead of leading the way, the UK has chosen to revert to being little England while it's satellites slowly move closer down the road to independence than they have ever gone.

I just don't see why a large manufacturer would come here to invest now that they can't count on frictionless supply chains from the continent. People may still come to start firms in the financial, tech and scientific sectors but I can see that beginning to drop over time. European research funding will still be available but the UK will have lost it's input as to how much money there is and how it is spent.

I feel like all of this could have been avoided had successive governments not snorted the neoliberal white powder and actually engaged with globalisation both in maximising and spreading of its opportunities and in trying to mitigate its costs. Instead, they lied successively about Iraq, the NHS, the EU and tuition fees and when they suddenly needed the public's trust it was too late.

But I don't know. They knew what they were voting for. I'm just another immigrant.

Jizique

devnull wrote: »

Geoffrey Cox, famous for his 'This Parliament is a disgrace' and supporting the illegal prorouging of Parliament, has just been handed a knighthood in the New Years Honours List.

I couldn't think of anything more fitting for the last few days of the UK's membership of the EU. It just sums it all up pretty much.

He was massively critical of the IMB ruse, which did surprise me.
I think he had some role in a decision on something May was trying to get over the line two years ago; everyone was hanging on his opinion.

Just on that era, I really think Labour totally screwed up by not supporting one of the “indicative votes” or her deal - it would have led to the end of the Tory party, a complete and full rupture of society, whereas now, they have no prospect of power in a generation (25 years)

Strazdas

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's glossed over because nobody cares. Well, many people do but the government and senior Brexiters certainly don't. I'm of the impression that Brexit is more about specific demographics trying to twist England specifically into a vision of theirs along with getting one over on liberals or the left or whoever. They've been told for decades that they have no control. They have no more now, or arguably even less given that they can't influence EU policy any more but they got to feel like they were taking back control for one day so there's that.

If Brexit was about reducing bureaucracy, red tape and onerous regulation then the lorry parks in Kent, the £7 billion cost of new customs personnel and infrastructure and the level playing field would elicit outrage. Instead, Michael Gove sees it as some form of perverse training exercise.

If Brexit was about reducing immigration, why was non-EU immigration not cut? I'd put it down to the old neoliberal attitude of the state doing as little as possible but even still nobody seems to be talking about halting freedom of movement and the need to fill some of the jobs migrants tend to overwhelmingly do such as fruit picking.

If Brexit was about trade, why didn't Britain lobby the EU to be more active in negotiating more deals with countries like China, India and Brazil? There was TTIP with the US but that was unpopular on both sides of the Atlantic. The EU was worried that the government would slash regulation and standards to allow unscrupulous corporations to use the UK as a way to undermine the single market. That's been resolved with the level playing field. They talk about taking back control but now Brussels can now suspend whole parts of the deal if they see violations of the LPF.

Apparently, representatives of British fishermen are now throwing around accusations of betrayal and yet that's barely been reported by the red tops. They were unwise to trust a man who cheated on his wife while she was receiving chemotherapy for breast cancer IMO but they knew what they were voting for I suppose.

And then there's sovereignty where a colossal constitutional change has been voted through the House of Commons with less than a working day's scrutiny because it suited the PM. So much for Parliament making the laws.

That leaves the rather simplistic explanation of parts of British society wanting to kick the rest of it. You see something similar in the US with poor people voting for the GOP. It's an explanation that fits rather awkwardly to be honest. Most people don't assiduously follow politics but there's likely something to this. The UK is a very unequal country and yet it's the haves that have chosen to kick the have nots. Pensioners who dodged tuition fees and extortionate accommodation rents (generally speaking) decided that the next generation should have their rights and opportunities limited for no tangible benefit whatsoever. It conflicts of the old adage that one should respect their elders but when said elders just let their prejudices guide their electoral decisions, there's noting to respect IMO. Again, painting with a very broad brush here. Plenty of older people did vote to stay and plenty of younger people didn't vote one way or another.

For all the Brexiter talk of the UK being a globalist nation, they do like to ignore the fact that again and again the country was embroiled in some continental struggle or another. No amount of Express headlines will ever trump geography. This is why projections for trade deals have been so lacklustre. Countries trade most with their neighbours. This isn't difficult.

Going forward, I don't know what's ahead for the UK. The future looked grim without Brexit. Climate change, mass automation, industrial tax avoidance and evasion and covid are all international problems that need international solutions. Instead of leading the way, the UK has chosen to revert to being little England while it's satellites slowly move closer down the road to independence than they have ever gone.

I just don't see why a large manufacturer would come here to invest now that they can't count on frictionless supply chains from the continent. People may still come to start firms in the financial, tech and scientific sectors but I can see that beginning to drop over time. European research funding will still be available but the UK will have lost it's input as to how much money there is and how it is spent.

I feel like all of this could have been avoided had successive governments not snorted the neoliberal white powder and actually engaged with globalisation both in maximising and spreading of its opportunities and in trying to mitigate its costs. Instead, they lied successively about Iraq, the NHS, the EU and tuition fees and when they suddenly needed the public's trust it was too late.

But I don't know. They knew what they were voting for. I'm just another immigrant.

There's almost a touch of 1930s Germany about watching the current shambles unfold. Nobody is suggesting for even a moment it will end in a Kristallnacht, or war with Europe or concentration camps but we can all agree we are looking at a corrupt government party, aided and abetted by a deeply corrupt Tory press (and with the tacit approval of about half the English electorate).

54and56

The die is now cast.

I have a lot of sympathy for the 48% who are going to be paying the tab for the 52%'s Brexit folly.

Other than that, let them off. They are now "free" having agreed a free trade agreement which they have stated they won on more issues overall than the EU.

Now that they are free to harvest their Brexit dividend I'm sure we'll never again see any reports in the UK press complaining about or blaming the EU for anything which affects them :-)

breezy1985

Jizique wrote: »

He was massively critical of the IMB ruse, which did surprise me.
I think he had some role in a decision on something May was trying to get over the line two years ago; everyone was hanging on his opinion.

Just on that era, I really think Labour totally screwed up by not supporting one of the “indicative votes” or her deal - it would have led to the end of the Tory party, a complete and full rupture of society, whereas now, they have no prospect of power in a generation (25 years)

What nonsense. How would supporting May have helped them one single bit with the electorate and how have events since made them unelectable

Love this new narrative going round here that Labour are the problem with UK politics since the Brexit vote