Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Tell me how

Strazdas wrote: »

There's almost a touch of 1930s Germany about watching the current shambles unfold. Nobody is suggesting for even a moment it will end in a Kristallnacht, or war with Europe or concentration camps but we can all agree we are looking at a corrupt government party, aided and abetted by a deeply corrupt Tory press (and with the tacit approval of about half the English electorate).

It's a fascinating topic and similar in general premise as to what is happening in the US.

Many of us have watched that unfold over the last few years and think it has seen a similar shift towards overt nationalism and demonisation of anyone outside and the press within but, thankfully, they voted for change in November but tellingly, by only a small margin.

I suppose ourselves, and historians will look back in 20 years at the periods of 2016 to 2020 for both countries and say that these were quite significant in where they find themselves in 2040. But, while I would like supporters of both Brexit and the other lad to recognize that they have been driven by very selfish desires and have been led up the garden path by their chosen leaders, I don't want to see the UK struggle. I have friends and relatives there and Ireland still relies on a strong UK market even if that is less reliance now than it was in the past.

Jizique

breezy1985 wrote: »

What nonsense. How would supporting May have helped them one single bit with the electorate and how have events since made them unelectable

Love this new narrative going round here that Labour are the problem with UK politics since the Brexit vote

Don’t get me wrong, but the issue with Europe was an internal Tory party schism for 30 years. If Labour had supported the May deal, which given they ended up supporting the Johnson agreement is not completely ludicrous, how would the world look?
The tories would have split; some form of govt would have been cobbled together (perhaps with Ken Clarke or some Labour grandee as PM) which would have battled on until May 2020 Fixed term parliament act) so the election would have taken place in May 2020 during COVID, with Brexit “done” in some sense - the same sense as now perhaps (it will go on forever).

This deal has a review in 2024/6 (can’t remember) so the next election will be based on keep Brexit done”, Labour want to rejoin, etc, the union etc, - plus, the possibility of a trump re-election in 2024, or some other sympathetic republican.
I just think Labour were a bit shortsighted (not a surprise under Corbyn) given this will play out over 10-20 years

embraer170

Sam Russell wrote: »

RTE quoting the FT that the customs documentation will cost UK business GB£7 billion a year. That is just paperwork - not lost business or delay costs, or other direct or indirect costs. That compares with a net cost of EU membership at GB£9 billion.

How many British companies (or companies operating in the UK) took a public stance against Brexit? Most were too scared to lose customers.

fiveleavesleft

Jizique wrote: »

Labour were a bit shortsighted (not a surprise under Corbyn)

Well that's true enough:D but it rings a little hollow now that the supposedly farsighted Labour people (Starmer, Thornberry etc...) are falling over themselves to support Brexit.

VinLieger

fiveleavesleft wrote: »

Well that's true enough:D but it rings a little hollow now that the supposedly farsighted Labour people (Starmer, Thornberry etc...) are falling over themselves to support Brexit.

I can understand they just want it off the table and to get on with things, but i really think they should abstain so they can hammer the tories with it in the coming years instead of actively supporting it.

Enzokk

So just about 15 and a half hours left until the UK leaves the jurisdiction of the ECJ and the control of the EU Parliament and the EU bureaucrats that has been making their lives miserable. They will have officially Brexited and not just legally as on 31 January this year when the transition kicked in.

And the prize? Well they are just about trapped in continual discussions with the EU where they will give and give to get a slice of a smaller pie than they had before. Well done to those that made this happen and those that supported it. An observation, we have not had many voices for Brexit on here, but other than Rob, most have eventually been banned from the forum because at the end the discussion always ends the same way, with petty insults against the others.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's glossed over because nobody cares. Well, many people do but the government and senior Brexiters certainly don't. I'm of the impression that Brexit is more about specific demographics trying to twist England specifically into a vision of theirs along with getting one over on liberals or the left or whoever. They've been told for decades that they have no control. They have no more now, or arguably even less given that they can't influence EU policy any more but they got to feel like they were taking back control for one day so there's that.

Good post, I think the bolded part sums up Brexit. The think they will feel better and that is what matters, not truth or facts. Just like most of the arguments about whether Brexit is a good idea came down to feelings.

PokeHerKing

Strazdas wrote: »

There's almost a touch of 1930s Germany about watching the current shambles unfold. Nobody is suggesting for even a moment it will end in a Kristallnacht, or war with Europe or concentration camps but we can all agree we are looking at a corrupt government party, aided and abetted by a deeply corrupt Tory press (and with the tacit approval of about half the English electorate).

I think war with somebody is on the cards for the UK in the next 20 years. Its the only progression I can see from the current actions/rhetoric.

Sam Russell

Strazdas wrote: »

There's almost a touch of 1930s Germany about watching the current shambles unfold. Nobody is suggesting for even a moment it will end in a Kristallnacht, or war with Europe or concentration camps but we can all agree we are looking at a corrupt government party, aided and abetted by a deeply corrupt Tory press (and with the tacit approval of about half the English electorate).

RTE have put on a number of programmes on the various centenaries occurring about now.

One on the burning of Cork, where the RIC, RIC Auxiliaries, and Black and Tans looted jewellers and major shops and the torched them. When the firemen tried to put out the fires, the Crown forces bayonetted the hose pipes. The whole of the centre of Cork was gutted.

Was that not like Kristaanacht?

The programme on Bloody Sunday was about how British soldiers and DMP police rushed to Croke Park and opened fire on the crowed attending the Dublin Tipp football match killing Michael Hogan, he captain of the Tipp team, plus a dozen others including a few children. They held the Tipp team after the chaos subsided and lined them up with the apparent intention of executing them, but an army officer intervened and the were let go.

The similarity with the 1972 version of Bloody Sunday is remarkable.

There was another programme on the Famine which left one with the opinion that the British Gov was quite willing to see the poor in Ireland starve to death to solve the need to feed and house them. It has the appearance to some observers of genocide.

Now, the current UK Tory Gov has the appearance of utter corruption, beginning to look like a chumocracy where every Gov contract is handed to a chum or party donor so they can enrich themselves at the public expense.

Now this Gov has signed a deal with the EU that will hobble the UK for a generation until that deal is unpicked - clause by clause. It will not be reversed in total because they have destroyed any good will that remains.

Why is no-one shouting STOP.

What can be expected come 11pm? Will Dover stuff kick in?

An Ciarraioch

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What can be expected come 11pm? Will Dover stuff kick in?

Given tomorrow's a bank holiday in both the UK and across Europe, the first real business impact won't be palpable until the 4th, one presumes.

RobMc59

Sam Russell wrote: »

RTE have put on a number of programmes on the various centenaries occurring about now.

One on the burning of Cork, where the RIC, RIC Auxiliaries, and Black and Tans looted jewellers and major shops and the torched them. When the firemen tried to put out the fires, the Crown forces bayonetted the hose pipes. The whole of the centre of Cork was gutted.

Was that not like Kristaanacht?

The programme on Bloody Sunday was about how British soldiers and DMP police rushed to Croke Park and opened fire on the crowed attending the Dublin Tipp football match killing Michael Hogan, he captain of the Tipp team, plus a dozen others including a few children. They held the Tipp team after the chaos subsided and lined them up with the apparent intention of executing them, but an army officer intervened and the were let go.

The similarity with the 1972 version of Bloody Sunday is remarkable.

There was another programme on the Famine which left one with the opinion that the British Gov was quite willing to see the poor in Ireland starve to death to solve the need to feed and house them. It has the appearance to some observers of genocide.

Now, the current UK Tory Gov has the appearance of utter corruption, beginning to look like a chumocracy where every Gov contract is handed to a chum or party donor so they can enrich themselves at the public expense.

Now this Gov has signed a deal with the EU that will hobble the UK for a generation until that deal is unpicked - clause by clause. It will not be reversed in total because they have destroyed any good will that remains.

Why is no-one shouting STOP.

If that's what you really think about Britain Sam it has nothing to do with brexit for you I'd say.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

If that's what you really think about Britain Sam it has nothing to do with brexit for you I'd say.

It's an opinion clearly directed at the British government, not the British people.

Detritus70

VinLieger wrote: »

I can understand they just want it off the table and to get on with things, but i really think they should abstain so they can hammer the tories with it in the coming years instead of actively supporting it.

Fcuk Labor. Jeremy "Brexit? What Brexit?" Corbyn has done more damage to Labor than any single person or event throughout history.
Both parties in the UK have damaged their country for decades to come through malice, greed, incompetence and sheer hubris.
If anything 1984 was overly optimistic.
The UK has to go through "purgatory", for want of a better word, in order to come to their senses.

Labor's dithering and inaction was worse than the Tories trying to actively sabotage the country.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

If that's what you really think about Britain Sam it has nothing to do with brexit for you I'd say.

Brexit, Scottish Independence and a UI are all 'symptoms' of a deeper malaise IMO.

Sam Russell

RobMc59 wrote: »

If that's what you really think about Britain Sam it has nothing to do with brexit for you I'd say.

It is the history of the Tory party that has systematically treated the poor in Britain and Ireland (and the Empire when it existed) throughout history.

Just take India as an example.

The British Gov made the weaving of cotton in India illegal to promote the cotton industry in Lancashire. Ghandi protested at the prohibition of making salt from sea water - the Indians had to buy British salt. Just look at the Amritsar massacre where British troops opened fire on a crowd in order to (kill) disperse them. They would have killed more only their field gun would not fit through the gate.

Just look at the Indian national flag. It is Green White and Orange, just like the Irish flag because they were the second nation to break away from Britain. In the centre of the flag is a spinning wheel for spinning cotton.

Draw whatever conclusion you like from that.

Much the same story would be found if you looked at the history of British involvement in China and the far East, and in Africa.

Brexit is just more of the same approach by the Tories towards the poor, and it is the poor they despise - well as well as Johnny Foreigner, unless they are rich.

How could any British PM elevate to the Peerage a son of a chief Russian spy, head of spying on Britain? It just beggars belief, just as the obviously corrupt contracts given out to various Tory chums and Tory donors.

It is not Britain - it is the corrupt Tories. If you studied British history, warts and all, you also would come to the same conclusions.

Not many historians have any good things to say about Cromwell, and I would put the Tories in the same place.

Personally, I am very saddened by the UK leaving the EU as I have many friends and relations living there, and the huge benefits the UK have brought to the world, if you ignore the really bad things they have brought. They have terrific universities, and have lead some fantastic advances in engineering and science.

I had hoped being part of the EU would have removed the Nasty Party* from the scene but they have got nastier over the years.

Brexit is a vile religion that has polluted UK politics for the last generation and the next.


*Nasty Party was T May's description of the Tories, and I would apply it to the very right wing of that party, as personified by Patel, Francoise, Gove, Mogg, Baker, etc.

CelticRambler

PokeHerKing wrote: »

I think war with somebody is on the cards for the UK in the next 20 years.

A civil war, most likely, albeit in relatively polite "cold war" terms rather than the "hot" version favoured and fantasised about by the Imperialists. Yesterday's vote was greeted by the UK media with great pomp and circumstance, and headlines such as the BBC's MPs overwhelmingly back post-Brexit deal with EU. Yet the first report I heard on the vote was on French radio (had just come in from the garden) where it was reported that England had voted for the deal, but it was opposed by the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish. And sure enough, buried way down in that BBC report is the same information:

the SNP, the Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru and all Northern Ireland parties that take seats at Westminster, also voted against the deal.

Without taking the previously evoked 1930s Germany analogy all the way to Kristallnacht, I think this New Year's Day will mark the start of a new era of disunity in the Kingdom. For the reasons already outlined several times over, we'll see a re-run of the War of the Roses in England, Roundheads vs. Cavaliers, Rich Tory South/East vs. Poor Labour North/West; and the three other nations - yes, even the DUP in Northern Ireland - will get really pissed off at being collateral damage in a protracted and increasingly vitriolic England vs. England battle. One way or another, that frustration will turn to action ...

PokeHerKing

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's an opinion clearly directed at the British government, not the British people.

I'm not trying to put words in anyones mouth but the British people are complicit. Just like kiwis expect to win rugby matches the vast majority of British people expect to win wars, rule peoples and generally have a superiority complex over the rest of the world.

The propaganda will spin whether they feel like the good or bad guys etc but the template of war mongering is stamped on the British public imo.

Sam Russell

PokeHerKing wrote: »

I'm not trying to put words in anyones mouth but the British people are complicit. Just like kiwis expect to win rugby matches the vast majority of British people expect to win wars, rule peoples and generally have a superiority complex over the rest of the world.

The propaganda will spin whether they feel like the good or bad guys etc but the template of war mongering is stamped on the British public imo.

I have always had difficulty with confusion of the term 'British' with the term 'English' where many people use the two terms interchangeably. Not every use of England or Britain is correct. For example, the English do not issue passports (of any colour), and people emigrated by taking the boat to Wales, not England.

I do think that much of rhetoric about Brexit, and general right wingery, emanates from English mouths, not from Scottish or Welsh mouths. NI might be a bit more complex.

I was much amused at the time Blatter of the FIFA scandal was cited by English FA grandees as signing up countries to FIFA 'that were not even members of the UN - obviously unaware that none of the four members of FIFA in the UK were members of the UN.

As I have pointed out, the confusion between 'English' and 'British' is widespread. Much of Brexit was built on that confusion.

AutoTuning

I have to say it feels odd today. A bit like a weird divorce is about to happen and there will be bumps ahead.

The fact that they rammed this through in the midst of a massive pandemic, which has turned all our lives upside down ans inside out, I think is just unforgivable from so many perspectives. Any sane government that actually cared about anything would have paused for thought, not ripped out cornerstones or their own economy and those of their closest neighbours.

The turmoil this has caused for businesses and people’s livelihoods is yet to play out and that begins tomorrow.

Our relationship with the U.K. will never be the same again. The bridges were well and truly burnt and several times over by the Tories, UKIP and the Brexit Party then danced on the ashes, behaving like football hooligans at the European Parliament, basically deliberately mocking and disrespecting a democratic institution in a way that they would never accept at home. The gutter press have exceeded themselves on raw jingoism and there’s a toxic atmosphere in the air that will take years to clear.

So anyway, here’s to 2021 and whatever it brings.

tubercolossus

Detritus70 wrote: »

Labor's dithering and inaction was worse than the Tories trying to actively sabotage the country.

This is utter revisionist nonsense. The Tories have been in power for more than a decade, and have been riven by anti-Europeanism for decades, yet it's the opposition that is to blame?

GTFO.

Professor Moriarty

AutoTuning wrote: »

I have to say it feels odd today. A bit like a weird divorce is about to happen and there will be bumps ahead.

The fact that they rammed this through in the midst of a massive pandemic, which has turned all our lives upside down ans inside out, I think is just unforgivable from so many perspectives. Any sane government that actually cared about anything would have paused for thought, not ripped out cornerstones or their own economy and those of their closest neighbours.

The turmoil this has caused for businesses and people’s livelihoods is yet to play out and that begins tomorrow.

Our relationship with the U.K. will never be the same again. The bridges were well and truly burnt and several times over by the Tories, UKIP and the Brexit Party then danced on the ashes, behaving like football hooligans at the European Parliament, basically deliberately mocking and disrespecting a democratic institution in a way that they would never accept at home. The gutter press have exceeded themselves on raw jingoism and there’s a toxic atmosphere in the air that will take years to clear.

So anyway, here’s to 2021 and whatever it brings.

Already, Brexiteers are saying that "The battle to truly Leave has only just begun." There will be battles with the EU across all segments of the deal next year. And it is certain that the UK will use Ireland as a pawn and threaten its economy and peace at every opportunity whenever it suits.

AutoTuning

Labour were weak on this, far too weak but the Tories, UKIP the Brexit Party and the DUP were the protagonists. At most Labour was distracted by internal politics and incompetent as an opposition.

I think it’s very important that the DUP’s not insignificant role in this be remembered and mentioned in the history of Brexit. It’s as much their baby as it is the Tories’ who they fully facilitated.

It’s very important that people in Northern Ireland, such as the farming community, think long and hard about that when it comes to casting any future votes for that party.

tubercolossus

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Already, Brexiteers are saying that "The battle to truly Leave has only just begun." There will be battles with the EU across all segments of the deal next year. And it is certain that the UK will use Ireland as a pawn and threaten its economy and peace at every opportunity whenever it suits.

Yes, I fully expect Bozo and his clowns to act in extreme bad faith from the get-go, egged on from the sidelines by honking buffoons such as Francois.

Did anyone read today that Stanley Johnson - father of the PM - has applied for French citizenship? You couldn't, as a well-known Brit rightwing mouthpiece who also lives abroad likes to say, make it up.

yagan

If the Holyrood election goes ahead in May it will be interesting to see the English reaction if the SNP get as stomping a mandate as SF did in the 1918 UK general election.

tubercolossus

Tony Blair, for all his misgbegotten war-mongering ways, was the best PM, and best Labour leader, in years. The political arena in the UK is so toxic now, with the Tory redtop & broadsheet press and a now craven, co-opted and neutered BBC on one side, and only the Guardian, Daily Mirror and maybe Independent in any way 'of the left', that I'm not sure if a 'proper' old-style leftie Labour leader could even get elected now. A centrist 'Third Way' merchant such as Blair might be their only hope. Starmer is good, and regularly has Johnson for breakfast at PMQs, but he's not inspirational enough to give Labour the sort of breakthrough they need.

AutoTuning

Blair was going absolutely fine until they got into bed with George Bush Jr and managed to go way off the rails and alienate most of their own electorate and half the party.

Domestically they had done extremely well in terms of social and economic policies. The country was booming, vibrant and forward looking. Northern Ireland was solved, with Mo Mowlam having played an absolutely brilliant part in that. Scottish and Welsh devolution happened. The U.K. Supreme Court was created. Loads of modernising occurred. Rule Britannia had been replaced by Cool Britannia and it was really a very vibrant place with a lot going for it. London and other cities had become real hubs of creativity and places people wanted to be.

The U.K. basically runs best on a balanced and centrist agenda. Their Achilles’ Heel is and always was a rump of hard core English nationalists / British nationalists who can be triggered by jingoism in politics and the press. Once you moved on to the current era of politics, it quickly emerged that you could push those buttons repeatedly and tip progressive England into being something very different and that’s basically why we are where we are.

Johnson is the British Trump and the approach has been exactly the same. Make America Great Again and jingoism chimes with a large % of Americans and a more imperial version of it spoken by a eccentric chap with an Eaton accent is what sells in England.

If they wake up from it and snap out of it again, it’s unfortunate that irrevocable decisions have been made and relationships forever altered and we’re back to toxic politics again as that’s really all that rump of the Tories know. It’s about divide, mock, sneer & rule.

O'Neill

AutoTuning wrote: »

Labour were weak on this, far too weak but the Tories, UKIP the Brexit Party and the DUP were the protagonists. At most Labour was distracted by internal politics and incompetent as an opposition.

I think it’s very important that the DUP’s not insignificant role in this be remembered and mentioned in the history of Brexit. It’s as much their baby as it is the Tories’ who they fully facilitated.

It’s very important that people in Northern Ireland, such as the farming community, think long and hard about that when it comes to casting any future votes for that party.

Not a hope in hell. From scandal to another whether it's the bigotry, or the RHI, Ian Paisley Jr expenses, their brazeness ect....on a whole, their electorate will never learn.

Akrasia

tubercolossus wrote: »

Yes, I fully expect Bozo and his clowns to act in extreme bad faith from the get-go, egged on from the sidelines by honking buffoons such as Francois.

Did anyone read today that Stanley Johnson - father of the PM - has applied for French citizenship? You couldn't, as a well-known Brit rightwing mouthpiece who also lives abroad likes to say, make it up.

“I am French”

I hope they refuse his application


*edit- I didn’t know he voted and campaigned to remain. Therefore I retract my earlier statement

astrofool

tubercolossus wrote: »

This is utter revisionist nonsense. The Tories have been in power for more than a decade, and have been riven by anti-Europeanism for decades, yet it's the opposition that is to blame?

GTFO.

It was more the weakness of Labour and inability of it's leader, at the time of the referendum, to make a decision on anything. I think the world would have been a different place if David had won in place of Ed (as it probably wouldn't have led to Corbyn).

tubercolossus

astrofool wrote: »

It was more the weakness of Labour and inability of it's leader, at the time of the referendum, to make a decision on anything. I think the world would have been a different place if David had won in place of Ed (as it probably wouldn't have led to Corbyn).

If David Cameron hadn't promised a bloody referendum that no-one particularly wanted, then none, NONE of this would have happened. There's a saying in the legal profession, when a witness is on the stand: Never ask a question you don't already know the answer to.