Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

yagan · 31-12-2020 6:24pm

mrunsure wrote: »

Although you have a passport card.

I was really looking forward to getting a UK ID card, so I didn't have to carry my passport when travelling in the EU. They were scrapped as soon as the 2010 government came in.

I was entering the UK from Spain a few years ago and my wife and I approached two different UK passport booths in Manchester airport. I presented my Irish passport card to which the recipient turned to her colleague and said "see these, we should have had these!" waved me on without bother.

Looking back I can see my wife hasn't budged from her booth, the two passport officers there have her card and are discussing it before calling a supervisor. Supervisor oks it and she passes through.

When she presented her card they told her it was not a passport. A lot of EU citizens get around Europe without passport books because they have machine readable biometric national ID cards so if the UK isn't going to accept Schengen readable IDs then they're going to put off a lot of EU tourists who'd normally travel there for soccer games etc..

Valhallapt · 31-12-2020 6:26pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why not?

Schengen is a database that keeps track of entry and exit from the area so undesirables are kept under surveillance. It works very well.

How would that conflict with he CTA?

If Gibraltar can be in Schengen but not the CU or SM, why can NI not be in Schengen and the CTA, They are not mutually exclusive.

Schengen and CTA are incompatible. They both provide travel within countries without the need for ID. What would stop someone coming from China to uk, then coming to Ireland then to France? Schengen is a Frontier as is the cta, so you need to have checks on entry and exit.

Capt'n Midnight · 31-12-2020 6:29pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

As an aside, the Falklands are not included in the deal, afaik.

They used to have tariff free imports into the EU.

90% of Falkland seafood exports go to the EU.
40% of GDP, 60% of Govt Revenue, Squid face 6% tariffs, fish 18%

Here's the UK response on the Overseas Territories excluded from the UK-EU Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Blame the EU, take credit for something they didn't do, ignore the worst tariffs, good intentions and vague promises they have already failed to meet and ignore most of the territories.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-eu-trade-and-cooperation-agreement-uk-statement-on-overseas-territories

Despite trying everything we could, the European Commission refused to negotiate a future relationship that included the OTs. We sought to change the Commission’s position, but it declined to engage.
...
Tristan da Cunha will continue to have tariff-free access to the EU market for its main export, lobster.
...
We continue to work closely with the Falkland Islands to manage the effects of new EU tariffs on their fish exports (including a 6% tariff on squid) while also helping the islands – and all of our OTs – to maximise the benefits of our newly independent trade policy.
...
In addition, we will take into account any shortfalls that arose from the end of EU funding, as we plan future UK spending in the OTs. We will focus this funding on the greatest needs and to deliver the greatest impact.

Which you can read as they won't be matching EU funds based on every other time this has happened from Cornwall to agriculture.

Just to be clear : The lobster deal last week was an EU - US trade deal, nothing at all for the UK to take credit for.

Both sides agreed that the EU will remove its tariffs on lobsters for all World Trade Organization members, in exchange for the U.S. scrapping its WTO tariffs on goods for which EU companies have a larger market share, such as cigarette lighters and certain processed meals.

CelticRambler · 31-12-2020 6:34pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Schengen is a common external border and the CTA allows travel between Ireland and the UK without passport checks. ...

Not sure of the relevance of the CU/SM to the discussion either.

While not directly relevant to the "Gibraltar vs NI" aspect of this, I think this is something that'll be a source of confusion and frustration to many Irish people in the coming weeks/months. The CTA provides for passport/visa-free travel between the UK and NI, and the freedom to live and work in either territory. But as of midnight tonight it does not entitle Irish or British citizens to carry anything and everything they want from one island to the other, and imposes an outright ban on certain goods.

The ferry ports are easily controlled, as it's easy to tell where the sudden wave of passengers and vehicles has come from, but as I said a few days ago, it remains to be seen how insistent/vigilant Irish customs officers will be on directing passengers from UK planes into the Green/Red channels rather than the Blue. I would imagine there'll be a degree of implicit pressure from "Brussels" to be seen to be ensuring that Dublin Airport doesn't become an unregulated point of entry for low-volume-high-value imports from the UK to the EU.

peter kern · 31-12-2020 6:40pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why not?

Schengen is a database that keeps track of entry and exit from the area so undesirables are kept under surveillance. It works very well.

How would that conflict with he CTA?

I could be wrong but Spain will have to check the passports of people flying from uk to gibraltar and at port . how is that going to work in NI ...

i had a look .
https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/spain-uk-in-last-minute-talks-to-enable-gibraltar-to-join-the-schengen-area/

While Chief Minister Fabian Picardo has since the beginning put a red line on the possible presence of Spanish police in Gibraltar, Madrid has finally accepted that for at least a transitional period, instead of Spanish police officers Frontex agents will conduct passport checks of people arriving in Gibraltar by sea or air.

AutoTuning · 31-12-2020 6:46pm

I got a bit of confusion when I presented an Irish Passport Card at CDG a few years ago too as they were relatively new.

I think the issue was lack of familiarity / education of passport officers in various locations rather than anything UK specific.
I went through CDG more recently and my passport card actually worked electronically on the eGates.

The way things are going this year, it could be a long time before I'm seeing the inside of an airport again lol

yagan · 31-12-2020 7:03pm

Valhallapt wrote: »

Schengen and CTA are incompatible. They both provide travel within countries without the need for ID. What would stop someone coming from China to uk, then coming to Ireland then to France? Schengen is a Frontier as is the cta, so you need to have checks on entry and exit.

Have you ever arrived from a British airport into an Irish airport? You have to present ID.

Also in recent years arriving into Dublin and Rosslaire has included ID checks.

I've never seen ID checks on the British side except when arriving from another EU country.

Britain has pulled the CTA back to the Irish Sea before so its pliable.

An Ciarraioch · 31-12-2020 8:08pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

But the hardness of Brexit is now baked into the agreement that they signed yesterday. Johnson even said on camera that, yes, he'd read it. So that's that: there are no surprises, or at least there must be nothing in there that Johnson is unhappy with, and (by extension) nothing that the ERG could have had any problem with, otherwise they wouldn't have voted for it.

This is why I say that the worst it can be will be a re-make of the IMB pantomime. A Withdrawal Agreement passed with minimal scrutiny, much whinging, some utterly stupid threats to tear it up, and - exactly as predicted - a total climbdown by Johnson & Co. at the end without the EU moving one iota from its original position.

From this point forwards, the EU has the new Trade Agreement as its reference document and dispute resolution built-in. If the UK wants to revise the T&Cs of any paragraph, they will be invited to present their concerns and/or proposals to the relevant joint commission and allow the process to unfold over the course of time (with no deadline for agreement). This neutralises any opportunity for the ERG to turn any particular issue into a battle, because they will always have a deadline hanging over them: the date of their next general election.

Maybe I'm just allergic to flow charts, but this British document on export/import procedures puts paid to the notion of frictionless trade:

https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.publishing.service.gov.uk%2Fgovernment%2Fuploads%2Fsystem%2Fuploads%2Fattachment_data%2Ffile%2F948978%2FDecember_BordersOPModel_Medium.pdf%3AZPwtAU982yM7xnl3S0AKRoYU-Og&cuid=6089674

blackcard · 31-12-2020 8:09pm

I see on Euronews that English is going to remain as the working language of the EU despite Brexit. English is the official language of Ireland and Malta. The decision to change the working language would have to be unanimous.

Don't know what was the working language of the EEC before England and Ireland joined in 1973?

An Ciarraioch · 31-12-2020 8:10pm

blackcard wrote: »

I see on Euronews that English is going to remain as the working language of the EU despite Brexit. English is the official language of Ireland and Malta. The decision to change the working language would have to be unanimous.

Don't know what was the working language of the EEC before England and Ireland joined in 1973?

French, generally - it was still the global diplomatic language, and it was just after the de Gaulle era.

An Ciarraioch · 31-12-2020 8:17pm

The EU website says that English will remain an official language because both Ireland and Malta retain it as one:

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/eu-languages_en

trellheim · 31-12-2020 8:22pm

Official UK Gov case studies for exporting and importing after tomorrow

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/949044/BordersOpModel_Case_Studies.pdf

Look at for example at Journey 7 - moving Fish to france. Head melting stuff

CelticRambler · 31-12-2020 8:26pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Maybe I'm just allergic to flow charts, but this British document on export/import procedures puts paid to the notion of frictionless trade:

https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.publishing.service.gov.uk%2Fgovernment%2Fuploads%2Fsystem%2Fuploads%2Fattachment_data%2Ffile%2F948978%2FDecember_BordersOPModel_Medium.pdf%3AZPwtAU982yM7xnl3S0AKRoYU-Og&cuid=6089674

Not sure how that statement relates to the ERG declaration of never-ending war against Brussels? What am I missing?

An Ciarraioch · 31-12-2020 8:39pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

Not sure how that statement relates to the ERG declaration of never-ending war against Brussels? What am I missing?

Just that the sheer complexity of the document highlights, as you said, how the hardness of Brexit is baked into the Trade Agreement.

CelticRambler · 31-12-2020 8:51pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Just that the sheer complexity of the document highlights, as you said, how the hardness of Brexit is baked into the Trade Agreement.

Ah, right.

Along the same lines, but arising from the Withdrawal Agreement rather than the Trade Agreement, checking something for a friend, I came across yet another "red-tape" side-effect of the cancelling of Freedom of Movement: if a British citizen, resident in France and having duly applied for and received their titre de séjour, decides to move house and the new house happens to be in a different département, their original titre becomes invalid and they have to apply for a new one in the new département. :rolleyes:

tubercolossus · 31-12-2020 8:55pm

I've never considered it before, but there is a certain irony in the fact of French being the world's long-time diplomatic language.

Especially if the next few months see French fishermen blockading Calais and so forth in their own inimitable way

yagan · 31-12-2020 9:02pm

tubercolossus wrote: »

I've never considered it before, but there is a certain irony in the fact of French being the world's long-time diplomatic language.

Especially if the next few months see French fishermen blockading Calais and so forth in their own inimitable way

At least with England out of the EU the English language becomes just a working tool without any cultural baggage in the bloc.

Widdensushi · 31-12-2020 9:04pm

tubercolossus wrote: »

I've never considered it before, but there is a certain irony in the fact of French being the world's long-time diplomatic language.

Especially if the next few months see French fishermen blockading Calais and so forth in their own inimitable way

I can't see why they would blockade, they benefit from the deal most, Ireland is after giving fish so French boats can get access to 6 miles from British shores.

tubercolossus · 31-12-2020 9:04pm

yagan wrote: »

At least with England out of the EU the English language becomes just a working tool without any cultural baggage in the bloc.

True.

Chris Grey's Brexit verdict...

https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2020/12/so-this-is-brexit.html

View · 31-12-2020 9:49pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

While not directly relevant to the "Gibraltar vs NI" aspect of this, I think this is something that'll be a source of confusion and frustration to many Irish people in the coming weeks/months. The CTA provides for passport/visa-free travel between the UK and NI, and the freedom to live and work in either territory. But as of midnight tonight it does not entitle Irish or British citizens to carry anything and everything they want from one island to the other, and imposes an outright ban on certain goods.

The ferry ports are easily controlled, as it's easy to tell where the sudden wave of passengers and vehicles has come from, but as I said a few days ago, it remains to be seen how insistent/vigilant Irish customs officers will be on directing passengers from UK planes into the Green/Red channels rather than the Blue. I would imagine there'll be a degree of implicit pressure from "Brussels" to be seen to be ensuring that Dublin Airport doesn't become an unregulated point of entry for low-volume-high-value imports from the UK to the EU.

This isn’t correct.

The CTA’s passport area is entirely separate from the “freedom to live and work in either territory”. They are not linked and indeed the very first mention of the CTA in an international treaty was in the Treaty of Amsterdam in 1997 when the U.K. obtained an unconditional opt-out from Schengen and Ireland was granted a comparable conditional one.

The origins of the CTA go back to the 1920s when the British unilaterally made a decision that it would be inconceivable for there to be passport checks between two parts of the then Empire.

Sadly, today, our politicians continue to act as though it is still a case that “Ireland shall have the same constitutional status in the Community of Nations known as the British Empire as the Dominion of Canada, the Commonwealth of Australia, the Dominion of New Zealand, and the Union of South Africa...” (Art 1 Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1922).

And, none of the above, alters the fact that Schengen is just as much a fundamental aim of the E.U. as the old “EEC stuff” or the Euro etc and that sooner or later the other EU countries will start asking pointed questions why their citizens - our fellow EU citizens - are being subjected to passport checks while we go out of our way to wave non-EU citizens into Ireland/the E.U. unimpeded.

CelticRambler · 31-12-2020 9:57pm

View wrote: »

This isn’t correct.

The CTA’s passport area is entirely separate from the “freedom to live and work in either territory”. They are not linked ...

Ummm. Can you point that out to the British Government.

The Common Travel Area (CTA) is a long-standing arrangement between the UK, the Crown Dependencies (Bailiwick of Jersey, Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Isle of Man) and Ireland that pre-dates both British and Irish membership of the EU and is not dependent on it.

Under the CTA, British and Irish citizens can move freely and reside in either jurisdiction and enjoy associated rights and privileges, including the right to work, study and vote in certain elections, as well as to access social welfare benefits and health services.

Besides, that doesn't change the fact that you cannot (two hours from now) bring a bag of seed potatoes back with you on your flight from Britain.

amacca · 31-12-2020 9:58pm

tubercolossus wrote: »

True.

Chris Grey's Brexit verdict...

https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2020/12/so-this-is-brexit.html

A very small point but the phrase "having cake and eating it" as used in that article even though it's the way a majority of people use it nowadays

Makes much less sense than the way it used to be used which was to eat your cake and have it too......that much better illustrates the lies that Johnson engages in with regards to well pretty much everything.

He and the rest of the brexiters are you can eat your cake but still have it afterwards merchants.

tubercolossus · 31-12-2020 10:00pm

amacca wrote: »

A very small point but the phrase "having cake and eating it" as used in that article even though it's the way a majority of people use it nowadays

Makes much less sense than the way it used to be used which was to eat your cake and have it too......that much better illustrates the lies that Johnson engages in with regards to well pretty much everything.

He and the rest of the brexiters are you can eat your cake but still have it afterwards merchants.

If that's what he wrote he was just shortening a familiar bromide. Everyone knows it means both consuming and possessing something simultaneously.

Capt'n Midnight · 31-12-2020 10:38pm

amacca wrote: »

A very small point but the phrase "having cake and eating it" as used in that article even though it's the way a majority of people use it nowadays

Makes much less sense than the way it used to be used which was to eat your cake and have it too......that much better illustrates the lies that Johnson engages in with regards to well pretty much everything.

He and the rest of the brexiters are you can eat your cake but still have it afterwards merchants.

It refers to a certain photograph from 2016

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38134859

The handwritten notes, carried by an aide to Conservative MP Mark Field, included "what's the model? Have your cake and eat it" and "unlikely" in reference to the EU single market.

More transcripted here https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tory-aide-just-give-away-9353756

An Ciarraioch · 31-12-2020 11:10pm

Slightly OT, but an interesting Irish Times article on expanding our cultural outlook after Brexit:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/it-s-time-to-pop-ireland-s-anglophone-bubble-1.4443818

Podge_irl · 01-01-2021 12:00am

CelticRambler wrote: »

While not directly relevant to the "Gibraltar vs NI" aspect of this, I think this is something that'll be a source of confusion and frustration to many Irish people in the coming weeks/months. The CTA provides for passport/visa-free travel between the UK and NI, and the freedom to live and work in either territory. But as of midnight tonight it does not entitle Irish or British citizens to carry anything and everything they want from one island to the other, and imposes an outright ban on certain goods.

The ferry ports are easily controlled, as it's easy to tell where the sudden wave of passengers and vehicles has come from, but as I said a few days ago, it remains to be seen how insistent/vigilant Irish customs officers will be on directing passengers from UK planes into the Green/Red channels rather than the Blue. I would imagine there'll be a degree of implicit pressure from "Brussels" to be seen to be ensuring that Dublin Airport doesn't become an unregulated point of entry for low-volume-high-value imports from the UK to the EU.

Indeed. I live in Switzerland so I am well used to this issue - freedom of movement and freedom of goods are two very different things. When I go running I can pass through the border no bother. When I come in a car you have the chance of being stopped and asked question. And getting bloody Amazon deliveries etc is a nightmare.