Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Strazdas

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Not to wory, only a few weeks away from discovering all the dasterdly European traps that have been hidden in the deal.

Much like the Withdrawl Agreement, the Brexit FTA will go from frast to famine in the Tory perception in due course and the public will line up behind whatever narrative their betters feed them. Blaming the EU just feels to natural to be seriously questioned anyway.

Will that wash though? In such a scenario, anyone could rightly reply 'What EU? We have nothing to do with them anymore'. They might as well try to blame Brazil or Vietnam for the latest Tory cock up.

Nody

Strazdas wrote: »

Will that wash though? In such a scenario, anyone could rightly reply 'What EU? We have nothing to do with them anymore'. They might as well try to blame Brazil or Vietnam for the latest Tory cock up.

It's been washing for the last four decades... No one raised an eyebrow at claims of EU stopping UK from controlling it's immigration (always with in their scope), EU citizens coming over to live on welfare (already in EU's rule allowing countries to send EU citizens back if they don't have a job or can support themselves) or of course the outright lies (bendy banana, no newspaper for fish & chips) etc. It will be "EU insisted on clause X, we wanted it removed but had to agree with a twisted arm", "What, we never agreed to that" (we did but let's claim we did not) or the classic "Oh it's a EU law and because this is an EU FTA it had to be included".

paul71

breezy1985 wrote: »

If you love Python or any of his other work save yourself now and don't google him ever again

I did, I always loved Monty Python, I'm disappointed to learn about this.

Thomasirl123

Would anyone have a link to the impact of the deal on Northern Ireland? Has anything changed since 2020? Can import from Britain with just extra paper work and no additional charges and the same for EU imports?

Strazdas

Nody wrote: »

It's been washing for the last four decades... No one raised an eyebrow at claims of EU stopping UK from controlling it's immigration (always with in their scope), EU citizens coming over to live on welfare (already in EU's rule allowing countries to send EU citizens back if they don't have a job or can support themselves) or of course the outright lies (bendy banana, no newspaper for fish & chips) etc. It will be "EU insisted on clause X, we wanted it removed but had to agree with a twisted arm", "What, we never agreed to that" (we did but let's claim we did not) or the classic "Oh it's a EU law and because this is an EU FTA it had to be included".

But they're the ones shouting from the rooftops 'Freedom at last!', 'We're fully independent!', 'Nobody tells us what to do!'. How can an EU which they have completely expunged from British life cause anything negative to happen in the UK?

Tropheus

They have to be trolling at this stage. They can't think people are that stupid.

https://twitter.com/BrandonLewis/status/1345057483887411200?s=20

Professor Moriarty

Tropheus wrote: »

They have to be trolling at this stage. They can't think people are that stupid.

https://twitter.com/BrandonLewis/status/1345057483887411200?s=20

As Secretary of State for NI, he has been made fully aware of NI's special status. All commercial goods entering NI from GB will requires a customs declaration, all food products will have to pass through border control posts and most food products will require certification. Thus, there is a border down the Irish Sea. The only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that he is lying.

eire4

Tropheus wrote: »

They have to be trolling at this stage. They can't think people are that stupid.

https://twitter.com/BrandonLewis/status/1345057483887411200?s=20

I would say that is exactly what they think and IMHO they are right. There are a lot or people in England who gobble up the nonsense to outright lies that are peddled by the likes of the Mail, Express, Sun etc.

Nody

Strazdas wrote: »

But they're the ones shouting from the rooftops 'Freedom at last!', 'We're fully independent!', 'Nobody tells us what to do!'. How can an EU which they have completely expunged from British life cause anything negative to happen in the UK?

Because exactly like with Trump it's not about factual truths, the glaringly logical disconnects between statements, policies or actions but about believing hard enough. It's 1984 except people are doing double think happily to themselves to avoid having to actually think critically. They will happily accept that UK is sovereign with full control of the laws and next day here that it's all EU's fault that a new law has to be implemented and not accept that they are factually opposite in practice. Trump was cheated on the election because there was no way Trump could lose; rather than critically asses the flaw in the thought process they will buy the lie. Same way Trump supporters were chanting stop the count and count all votes in different states at the same time simply depending on what suited the narrative in each state. The Brexiteers simply can't accept that they are wrong because by doing they would have to accept they were fooled. And since they are of course smart and know how things works that can't be the case; hence double think to avoid having to view the facts not matching their reality allowing UK to be fully sovereign while EU is still at fault for everything that's wrong at the same time.

Capt'n Midnight

tubercolossus wrote: »

I suppose you could see it as a gestalt of two famous dictums: that those who forget history are condemned to repeat it, and that history repeats itself, first as tragedy, then as farce.

A cohort of this Brit generation are trying to recapture the WWII spirit, but all they can come up with is a farce called Brexit.

Remember the generation that lived through WWII voted Remain.

The generation after them , the ones who never had it so good with their triple locked pensions, voted Leave.

The Blitz Spirit never really existed like they make out. It was largely propaganda. Lots of crime. And no NHS.

timetogo1

Brexit in action

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1378580/brexit-news-boris-johnson-pulse-fishing-ban-uk-waters-defra-eu-supertrawlers/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Johnson bans pulse fishing and the express claims it as a brexit victory.
Except it was already banned in the EU and meant to be implemented this year. France banned it last year and (checking notes) they're still in the EU.

Jizique

timetogo1 wrote: »

Best in action

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1378580/brexit-news-boris-johnson-pulse-fishing-ban-uk-waters-defra-eu-supertrawlers/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Johnson bans pulse fishing and the express claims it as a brexit victory.
Except it was already banned in the EU and meant to be implemented this year. France banned it last year and (checking notes) they're still in the EU.

Saw some MP tweet that yday - they truly are shameless, but they will get away with it all

Dr Cockhound

That's not quite the full story.

The EU is set to ban much of its pulse fishing in July this year, but the European Commission is still allowing six vessels to conduct the method after pressure from the Dutch fishing industry.

timetogo1

Dr Cockhound wrote: »

That's not quite the full story.

Can you give the link to that quote.

CelticRambler

timetogo1 wrote: »

Can you give the link to that quote.

Not worth it - it's "old news" (2006-old) and no longer relevant. This is the link you need:

The European Parliament and EU member states clinched an agreement late last night (13 February) over new technical conservation measures for fishing, which includes an EU-wide ban on the controversial pulse trawling starting from mid-2021.

Or for background (and to remind Dr Cockhound to check the validity of information before posting):

Pulse fishing has technically been illegal in the EU since 1998, but for the last 10 years there has been an exception allowing member states to catch up to 5 percent of their annual fishing quota in the North Sea using "innovative methods" in the name of research. The Netherlands, which has been testing the technique to evaluate its effects, is the biggest user of pulse fishing in the EU, with permits issued to an estimated 80 trawlers.

CelticRambler

Ahhhh ... I see. He read it in the Telegraph! :rolleyes:

Where it's also reported that Brexit means Britain can now introduce mandatory microchipping of cats. Better tell the French that there's some EU law against that, seeing as it's been obligatory here since 2012 ... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

fash

CelticRambler wrote: »

Ahhhh ... I see. He read it in the Telegraph! :rolleyes:

Where it's also reported that Brexit means Britain can now introduce mandatory microchipping of cats. Better tell the French that there's some EU law against that, seeing as it's been obligatory here since 2012 ... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Also I like the irony that said poster is complaining about the EU not passing a ban - and allowing member states to do what they want. So what is the complaint? The EU is too controlling or not controlling enough here?

schmoo2k

If NI + GB turn a blind eye to the customs rules for ships travelling between them (just wave them through or are relatively lax), who will get in trouble and/or how will it get enforced?

Will the EU be allowed to have their own custom officials at the NI ports for example? If not how will they even know if the rules are being enforced correctly?

Professor Moriarty

schmoo2k wrote: »

If NI + GB turn a blind eye to the customs rules for ships travelling between them (just wave them through or are relatively lax), who will get in trouble and/or how will it get enforced?

Will the EU be allowed to have their own custom officials at the NI ports for example? If not how will they even know if the rules are being enforced correctly?

They EU will have personnel present who will monitor the administration of checks on goods coming into NI.

An Ciarraioch

Interesting to read stats on ferry travel in the Irish Times today - 80% of all traffic just goes back and forth between Ireland and GB, and doesn't actually go on to Europe, while of the 20% that is Continental, the split is already virtually even between the landbridge (11%) and direct sailings (9%):

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/faster-cheaper-uk-landbridge-will-lure-businesses-irish-ferries-boss-1.4448312

Dr Cockhound

fash wrote: »

Also I like the irony that said poster is complaining about the EU not passing a ban - and allowing member states to do what they want. So what is the complaint? The EU is too controlling or not controlling enough here?

Dr Cockhound wrote: »

That's not quite the full story.

At no stage have I complained about the ban on Electrical Impulse Fishing.
The fact is, I want to see a TOTAL AND COMPLETE BAN on Electrical Impulse Fishing. From what I have read, it damages healthy fish and kills sharks and dolphins.


Please don't invent what I've posted.

CelticRambler

Dr Cockhound wrote: »

At no stage have I complained about the ban on Electrical Impulse Fishing.
The fact is, I want to see a TOTAL AND COMPLETE BAN on Electrical Impulse Fishing. From what I have read, it damages healthy fish and kills sharks and dolphins.

Then take those concerns to the Farming and Fisheries forum. The point being made above was that Johnson is claiming Brexit credit for an EU rule made 22 years ago, and progressively tightened up in the meantime.

Your post suggested that that was not true, and not only did you you fail to provide a link to your source, but a simple search suggested you were getting your information from the inherently unreliable Telegraph, specifically from an article in which other distortions of the truth were evident.

fash

Dr Cockhound wrote: »

At no stage have I complained about the ban on Electrical Impulse Fishing.
The fact is, I want to see a TOTAL AND COMPLETE BAN on Electrical Impulse Fishing. From what I have read, it damages healthy fish and kills sharks and dolphins.


Please don't invent what I've posted.

I've invented nothing:
You are complaining about the EU. Is your complaint that the EU is too controlling or not controlling enough? If you say they should have banned impulse fishing, I take it you believe the EU is not controlling enough?

Dr Cockhound

I favour a ban.
Fash stated that I complained against a ban.
I didn't.

ilovesmybrick

Stanley Johnson is now claiming on RTE Radio 1 that the reason he applied for a French passport this week was as a tribute to his mother....It is quite rich him (a former MEP) claiming that the UK may not have been the right fit for Europe, while also applying for an EU passport the same week they leave. I know he apparently voted to remain, but out of all the people who may have had the ability to sway his sons opinion he would possibly have been the one that would have mmade the most impact if he publicly supported remaining, or at least a common sense deal.

McFly85

Dr Cockhound wrote: »

I favour a ban.
Fash stated that I complained against a ban.
I didn't.

So you agree the UK could have done this in the EU and banning pulse fishing isn’t a benefit of Brexit.

We’re going to see this spin a lot. Any time Britain makes any decision for itself it will be announced as some massive deal that could only be done outside the EU. It will be the same with any trade deals, regardless of how good they actually are, they will be portrayed as incredibly positive.

yagan

I was in England when EU roaming charges were dropped. It was reported across their news channels as "the government announced that travellers to the EU will no longer be charged roaming fees" without any reference to it as being an EU directive.

To the Brexiter mindset this reads as "it was Westminster what done it!". I had a very educated colleague sincerely ask me if I changed my Irish euros for Spanish euros when I go. There's a whole compressed mindset that branched off onto another siding when the UK crashed out of the ERM.

yagan

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

Stanley Johnson is now claiming on RTE Radio 1 that the reason he applied for a French passport this week was as a tribute to his mother....It is quite rich him (a former MEP) claiming that the UK may not have been the right fit for Europe, while also applying for an EU passport the same week they leave. I know he apparently voted to remain, but out of all the people who may have had the ability to sway his sons opinion he would possibly have been the one that would have mmade the most impact if he publicly supported remaining, or at least a common sense deal.

Etonians are educated to rule, regardless of the masses starving or not.

Britain's ruling class have advanced over piles of dead bodies for centuries and this is just another year for them.

Silent Running

yagan wrote: »

I was in England when EU roaming charges were dropped. It was reported across their news channels as "the government announced that travellers to the EU will no longer be charged roaming fees" without any reference to it as being an EU directive.

To the Brexiter mindset this reads as "it was Westminster what done it!". I had a very educated colleague sincerely ask me if I changed my Irish euros for Spanish euros when I go. There's a whole compressed mindset that branched off onto another siding when the UK crashed out of the ERM.

In a similar way that you see notices on our major infrastructure works that it is part funded by the EU. Funny, I've never seen that on major projects in the UK.

ilovesmybrick

yagan wrote: »

I had a very educated colleague sincerely ask me if I changed my Irish euros for Spanish euros when I go. There's a whole compressed mindset that branched off onto another siding when the UK crashed out of the ERM.

I do think we sometimes underestimate how little engagement with the continent portions of the UK have. It's possibly the reliance on purely anglophone media, which was apparent during the negotiations where there seemed to be a complete lack of awareness of how they were coming across on the continental broadsheets.

About a month after the referendum was announced I was at a training workshop in the University of Southampton, and the group would have all been educated to at a minimum masters level. I did ask about the referendum and if it passed what would happen if there was a restriction on travel to the rest of the EU. One woman, and a couple of others agreed with her, said she never travelled to the continent for holidays or otherwise if she could avoid it, and almost solely travelled to America, Australia, other English speaking countries, because it was too stressful for a holiday to be dealing with other languages.

Perhaps I'm wrong, and perhaps I'm biased since I live on the continent, but I think that's an attitude you would be hard pushed to find in almost any other European country.