Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

yagan

I reckon the single biggest event that connected the average Irish person to the EU was the introduction of the Euro. It would have been the same for all the EZ nations too.

While we may not be great at having second languages English is still the second language for most of the EU, especially the Scandinavians and former eastern bloc states.

While we may not have gone working on the continent in great numbers the continent came to us and so we're becoming more European. We know our prosperity is as much an EU story.

breezy1985

Tell me how wrote: »

Think they probably always recognized that but couldn't actively call for the UK out of Northern Ireland while simultaneously accepting EU involvement in the South.

I can distinctly remember Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness clarifying any dislike towards Europe with 'We've always said no outsiders should be able to influence the way a country governs itself'. They started to move from that from when the Good Friday Agreement was formed, if not completely in one go but gradually moving from it as you said.

Were they not the biggest anti Nice treaty party. It was all about the " unelected bureaucrats in Brussels" back then

Tell me how

breezy1985 wrote: »

Were they not the biggest anti Nice treaty party. It was all about the " unelected bureaucrats in Brussels" back then

Yeah, like I said, it wasn't an immediate change in tone after the Good Friday agreement, but they did move from a distinct opposition to a qualified acceptance of the body over time.

breezy1985

Tell me how wrote: »

Yeah, like I said, it wasn't an immediate change in tone after the Good Friday agreement, but they did move from a distinct opposition to a qualified acceptance of the body over time.

Looks more like quick convenient jumps to me

Tell me how

breezy1985 wrote: »

Looks more like quick convenient jumps to me

Maybe it was. Every political party is accused of doing the same thing when ever they do anything which is deemed as being positive.

As I said in my first comment on it, I remember (or think I do) distinct comments from Gerry Adams which even at the time I was thinking he had to say because of their continued feelings on the British in the North more so than how I expected he truly felt about Europe.

Jizique

Tell me how wrote: »

Maybe it was. Every political party is accused of doing the same thing when ever they do anything which is deemed as being positive.

As I said in my first comment on it, I remember (or think I do) distinct comments from Gerry Adams which even at the time I was thinking he had to say because of their continued feelings on the British in the North more so than how I expected he truly felt about Europe.

If you think about it, UKIP and traditional SF have quite a lot in common, even as late as the IMF/EU bailouts - the “trendy lefty” side of SF is more to help get down with the kids, which is playing successfully obviously; I would not be surprised to see them revert to their more traditional stance at some stage.
Remember their vote collapsed in the prior general election and they had a shocker of a last local (and presidential) election.

Imreoir2

breezy1985 wrote: »

Were they not the biggest anti Nice treaty party. It was all about the " unelected bureaucrats in Brussels" back then

I don't think they have ever supported an EU treaty in any referendum in the Republic.

Strazdas

Jizique wrote: »

If you think about it, UKIP and traditional SF have quite a lot in common, even as late as the IMF/EU bailouts - the “trendy lefty” side of SF is more to help get down with the kids, which is playing successfully obviously; I would not be surprised to see them revert to their more traditional stance at some stage.
Remember their vote collapsed in the prior general election and they had a shocker of a last local (and presidential) election.

The main difference though is that SF never advocated leaving the EU, they were just opposed to it taking on new powers. UKIP's raison d'etre was to get the UK out of the EU (hence their name).

Jizique

Strazdas wrote: »

The main difference though is that SF never advocated leaving the EU, they were just opposed to it taking on new powers. UKIP's raison d'etre was to get the UK out of the EU (hence their name).

They could never openly espouse the policy given the popularity of the EU, esp with the rural community - they have always been very sceptial of membership and had a referendum been held on any EU treaty, they would have been against it; watch now that we are “net contributors” and once the fishermen start squealing

yagan

Jizique wrote: »

They could never openly espouse the policy given the popularity of the EU, esp with the rural community - they have always been very sceptial of membership and had a referendum been held on any EU treaty, they would have been against it; watch now that we are “net contributors” and once the fishermen start squealing

Turf cutting gets more people out marching than fishing rights. Sea going simply doesn't ping the national psyche like rural land issues.

I was weary of SF when they were campaigning against Lisbon and Nice, their arguments never stacked up in the greater scheme. However once parties took their seats in Stormont the long term outsiders warmed up to what is essentially a union extremely favourable to small nations.

PeadarCo

yagan wrote: »

Turf cutting gets more people out marching than fishing rights. Sea going simply doesn't ping the national psyche like rural land issues.

I was weary of SF when they were campaigning against Lisbon and Nice, their arguments never stacked up in the greater scheme. However once parties took their seats in Stormont the long term outsiders warmed up to what is essentially a union extremely favourable to small nations.

The thing is the EU as an organisation is anti-nationalism or at least extreme versions of nationalism. Given SF history of support for extreme nationalism it's not a surprise that they have historically being anti EU. The thing is Brexit while driven by English nationalism which has the potential to destroy the UK. So in SF case Brexit helps it case to achieve a united Ireland. Long term it will be interesting to see how SF EU policy evolves.

However the biggest issue Brexit has highlighted is the lack of what we could call British nationalism. As the article in CNN points out Brexit and to a degree Covid are causing serious structural challenges for the UK. When it comes to future UK/EU negotiations it will be interesting to see how these dynamics play out. During the Brexit talks Scotland was largely ignored, Unionists in NI were tolerated as long as they were required and ignored after that. If it was felt that the UK would actually be at risk breaking up it would interesting to see if it would have any impact on Westminsters negotiations with the EU.



https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/02/uk/2020-hurt-the-uk-2021-could-kill-it-intl-gbr/index.html

Strazdas

Jizique wrote: »

They could never openly espouse the policy given the popularity of the EU, esp with the rural community - they have always been very sceptial of membership and had a referendum been held on any EU treaty, they would have been against it; watch now that we are “net contributors” and once the fishermen start squealing

I wouldn't disagree with that but Europe was never really a priority for them. They had to have a stance at every EU referendum obviously, but I don't think they were ever that energised about the EU membership issue.

Capt'n Midnight

Jizique wrote: »

If you think about it, UKIP and traditional SF have quite a lot in common, even as late as the IMF/EU bailouts - the “trendy lefty” side of SF is more to help get down with the kids, which is playing successfully obviously; I would not be surprised to see them revert to their more traditional stance at some stage.
Remember their vote collapsed in the prior general election and they had a shocker of a last local (and presidential) election.

Nothing in common. Apart from wanting unicorns and being the last pick in any collation.

Farage was a commodities trader whereas SF want a 32 county socialist utopia.

Despite what you might say about them SF do have some principles. All incarnations of the party have been not sitting in Westminster since 1908.

Nigel will be getting a €6,253 a month from the EU in 7 years time.

Zubeneschamali

Strazdas wrote: »

They had to have a stance at every EU referendum obviously.

They were against joining and No on every EU referendum since.

Imreoir2

PeadarCo wrote: »

The thing is the EU as an organisation is anti-nationalism or at least extreme versions of nationalism. Given SF history of support for extreme nationalism it's not a surprise that they have historically being anti EU. The thing is Brexit while driven by English nationalism which has the potential to destroy the UK. So in SF case Brexit helps it case to achieve a united Ireland. Long term it will be interesting to see how SF EU policy evolves.

However the biggest issue Brexit has highlighted is the lack of what we could call British nationalism. As the article in CNN points out Brexit and to a degree Covid are causing serious structural challenges for the UK. When it comes to future UK/EU negotiations it will be interesting to see how these dynamics play out. During the Brexit talks Scotland was largely ignored, Unionists in NI were tolerated as long as they were required and ignored after that. If it was felt that the UK would actually be at risk breaking up it would interesting to see if it would have any impact on Westminsters negotiations with the EU.



https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/02/uk/2020-hurt-the-uk-2021-could-kill-it-intl-gbr/index.html

Their 2020 election manifesto was still firmly 'Eurosceptic'. They will use pro-EU sentiment if they think it advances their ends, but they are still anti-EU. For all their left wing posturing, they have a strong following among right wing and far right nuts and wont do anything to disuade them from voting for SF.

They really only opposed Brexit because the DUP supported it.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Don't dump links here please. A post has been removed.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Mod: Don't dump links here please. A post has been removed.

A post has been removed. Please do not just paste links here.

Capt'n Midnight

Early days but not everyone is up to speed on the new processes.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/most-lorries-on-first-post-brexit-ferries-did-not-know-about-customs-checks-1.4448260

some lorry drivers did not check their “customs channel” 30 minutes out from docking to see if they were “green routed” to exit the port or “red routed” to be directed to Revenue’s customs or Department of Agriculture inspection facilities at the port.

going the other way will be easier for months as the UK won't be doing as many checks.

CelticRambler

:eek: 20% of trucks arriving in Holyhead didn't have their paperwork in order??!! It'd be really interesting to know whether these were Irish shuritllbegrand drivers, UK hauliers just not up to speed because of the short time-scale, or independent continental drivers who've been living in a Brexit-free bubble - guys such as the Romanian I heard interviewed on Friday who didn't know/hadn't heard that there were any changes coming into effect! :rolleyes:

Strazdas

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

They were against joining and No on every EU referendum since.

I'm not an SF voter and have no need to defend them. I wouldn't read too much into their past EU stance though. They are very much an Irish nationalist party and mainly concerned with all Ireland politics....I doubt their stance on the EU has ever been a priority for them.

Igotadose

First DFDS ferry from Rosslare to Dunkirk left yesterday, fully booked. Owners stating they'll ship more in a day this way than a week previously. Had it in the plans but Brexit moved it forward.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0102/1187354-ferry-rosslare-dunkirk/

volchitsa

CelticRambler wrote: »

:eek: 20% of trucks arriving in Holyhead didn't have their paperwork in order??!! It'd be really interesting to know whether these were Irish shuritllbegrand drivers, UK hauliers just not up to speed because of the short time-scale, or independent continental drivers who've been living in a Brexit-free bubble - guys such as the Romanian I heard interviewed on Friday who didn't know/hadn't heard that there were any changes coming into effect! :rolleyes:

I’m sure you’re right that some are just dopes, but a friend of mine who runs a small business importing perishable goods from Europe and elsewhere into Ireland (north and south) tells me that they’ve complied with all the instructions but that there are a lot of things they just don’t know yet. Because nobody knows. They’re almost relieved that Covid restrictions have slowed their business down because that may make Brexit more manageable.

Panrich

volchitsa wrote: »

I’m sure you’re right that some are just dopes, but a friend of mine who runs a small business importing perishable goods from Europe and elsewhere into Ireland (north and south) tells me that they’ve complied with all the instructions but that there are a lot of things they just don’t know yet. Because nobody knows. They’re almost relieved that Covid restrictions have slowed their business down because that may make Brexit more manageable.

Have they looked at the Rosslare Dunkirk route? I’d be interested to hear why the UK landbridge is still the preferred option for anyone with direct business with Europe. Is it just familiarity, time sensitivity or something else like cost, capacity etc.?

rock22

Panrich wrote: »

Have they looked at the Rosslare Dunkirk route? I’d be interested to hear why the UK landbridge is still the preferred option for anyone with direct business with Europe. Is it just familiarity, time sensitivity or something else like cost, capacity etc.?

I can't link to it, but two days ago the Irish Times had an article on Irish Ferries where the CEO was promoting the landbridge route.
I imagine that logistics will take into account difficulty, time and price. For some goods landbridge might still be better option.

I find it interesting, though, contrasting this thread with the Consumer Issues section. No one over there seems to regard being in a large single market as a bonus. lots of threads about how they can continue to use Amazon.co.uk and other UK based retailers. It is a reflection of how the average Irish consumer sees themselves more an appendix of the UK market then part of the EU.
I tried to purchase on EBay .ie yesterday. in The filters I selected items in European Union yet the first two pages were full of UK sellers.

Professor Moriarty

rock22 wrote: »

I can't link to it, but two days ago the Irish Times had an article on Irish Ferries where the CEO was promoting the landbridge route.
I imagine that logistics will take into account difficulty, time and price. For some goods landbridge might still be better option.

I find it interesting, though, contrasting this thread with the Consumer Issues section. No one over there seems to regard being in a large single market as a bonus. lots of threads about how they can continue to use Amazon.co.uk and other UK based retailers. It is a reflection of how the average Irish consumer sees themselves more an appendix of the UK market then part of the EU.
I tried to purchase on EBay .ie yesterday. in The filters I selected items in European Union yet the first two pages were full of UK sellers.

Here you go.

CelticRambler

:rolleyes: It only took two days: Britons living in Spain barred from Madrid flight

British residents flying home to Spain were prevented from boarding a joint BA/Iberia flight to Madrid on Saturday night after airline staff said their pre-Brexit residency papers were no longer valid.

<snip>

It was not just the Madrid flight that was affected. A person with the handle @daisyqueen tweeted: “My daughter and her partner affected. Been in Heathrow for 12 hours – refused travel initial BA flight to Barcelona then told could travel tonight so waited only to be refused as BA say passengers were returned from Barcelona.”

Now I know it's very un-Christian of me, but seeing as there are strict movement restrictions in place in Spain, my first reaction to this article was: how and why did these British leave their Spanish homes in the first place? Being on first-name terms with some such people, I wouldn't be surprised if at least one or two used their British passport and an address-of-convenience in the UK to justify being allowed leave the country to enjoy some service or opportunity in the UK.

CelticRambler

rock22 wrote: »

I find it interesting, though, contrasting this thread with the Consumer Issues section. No one over there seems to regard being in a large single market as a bonus. lots of threads about how they can continue to use Amazon.co.uk and other UK based retailers. It is a reflection of how the average Irish consumer sees themselves more an appendix of the UK market then part of the EU.

Indeed. I had a similar ill-humoured discussion with mobile phone company, Three.ie - their webtext service is (since an unpublished update to their T&Cs, apparently) available only to users in the RoI ... and the UK. But not to customers roaming in the EU.

For all that I agree with AutoTuning's analysis of the historical attitude to Europe of the Irish vs. the British, I think recent generations have quite willingly bought into the "West Brit" lifestyle, with their subscriptions to Sky, their delight in shopping in M&S, the excitement of having an Argos or a Halfords store open nearby, being able to jump on a Ryanair flight to see English soccer teams play in an English tournament.

In itself, there's nothing wrong with dipping into this parallel culture - but you just don't see anything comparable in respect of the continental equivalents.

Professor Moriarty

CelticRambler wrote: »

:rolleyes: It only took two days: Britons living in Spain barred from Madrid flight



Now I know it's very un-Christian of me, but seeing as there are strict movement restrictions in place in Spain, my first reaction to this article was: how and why did these British leave their Spanish homes in the first place? Being on first-name terms with some such people, I wouldn't be surprised if at least one or two used their British passport and an address-of-convenience in the UK to justify being allowed leave the country to enjoy some service or opportunity in the UK.

"British embassy says ‘this should not be happening’ after airline staff claim pre-Brexit ID documents are invalid"

Weird to see the British embassy being quoted in the context of flights between Spain and Britain. And so it begins.

Panrich

CelticRambler wrote: »

:rolleyes: It only took two days: Britons living in Spain barred from Madrid flight



Now I know it's very un-Christian of me, but seeing as there are strict movement restrictions in place in Spain, my first reaction to this article was: how and why did these British leave their Spanish homes in the first place? Being on first-name terms with some such people, I wouldn't be surprised if at least one or two used their British passport and an address-of-convenience in the UK to justify being allowed leave the country to enjoy some service or opportunity in the UK.

I’d guess that the majority of these were ‘home’ for Christmas. Wasn’t there a requirement that you had to apply for residency in Spain prior to Brexit? It’s probably people who didn’t bother to update their documentation that got caught out here.

volchitsa

Panrich wrote: »

Have they looked at the Rosslare Dunkirk route? I’d be interested to hear why the UK landbridge is still the preferred option for anyone with direct business with Europe. Is it just familiarity, time sensitivity or something else like cost, capacity etc.?

They’re in Northern Ireland (Derry). They’ve looked into acquiring land in Donegal which would simplify things but even finding premises is an issue. And cost.